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Let's talk early game water sterilization


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41 minutes ago, nessumo said:

they can fail if polluted water source is not continuous

This isn't true. There is a feed back loop, liquid exits the system only when liquid enters the system. I cleaned up the piping from the post @nakomarulinked.

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I don't do the reservoir in chlorine thing because I personally think it's dumb. But if you are going to do it, this is the brain dead simple way. I share his bafflement in why people keep making Rube Goldberg contraptions. Not a knock against @Neotuck's which is pretty darn simple also, I wanted to try to clear up what is apparently a common misconception.

It reminds me of when pipe sensor/shutoff filters were first put in. People swore up and down they were broken. Of course they worked perfectly fine when built properly, people just refused to listen (and still occasionally do) for whatever reason.

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3 hours ago, nakomaru said:

AFAIK none will escape at 3 reservoirs without editing abnormally high germ counts in, and surely none will pass through 4.

Every time this comes up, I never understand why there are any other suggestions besides the one you are talking about. No automation, 10kg/s throughput and simple as can be.

Some people seem to think more complicated is better. 

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Tepidizers. I think that's why they were put in the game in the first place?

Since you asked, this is what I do when I want to kill off germs. I like this method because there is an ongoing cost (nothing should be free), the counterflow engineering is an exercise in minimizing the cost. The reservoirs are because I hate overpressure storage. I would not recommend this build unless the person I'm talking to shares my idiosyncrasies.

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@wachunga, I am baffled why almost all people think that trickplays with bridges are always "simpler" than obvious automation :) Simplicity may be misleading - for example @Neotuck design has very little elements, but it is not easy to understand why it works for new players at first glance.

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33 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

I do agree it's dumb but what other alternatives are there? Boiling? Freezing?

I just don't like the rule that gases interact directly with building contents. Why would you build a water tank building that is completely exposed to whatever the local atmosphere is? It makes for stupid problems when polluted oxygen gets near it, and the same is true for fridges.

As for the alternatives, freezing in this game is awful because there's no good way to control it. Boiling is actually a pretty decent option that I think deserves more respect, cause it's a way to eliminate the water sieve entirely, but the problem is electrolyzers are really the only sane way to scale oxygen production, and 95 C oxygen isn't exactly ideal to be dumping everywhere.

It would be very nice if there was a dedicated water chlorination building, but of course with how ONI tends to do things, it wouldn't just take in a set amount of chlorine and recycle it forever, but probably delete mass (ugh; both nonsensical and there's no way to produce chlorine renewably without the geyser) or involve bleach stone in yet another dumb attempt to make us want to ranch pufts (double ugh; they would probably be just barely okay if prince rates were buffed and egg chances from princes depended on consumed gas).
Relatedly, the ore scrubber is such a joke that I think building one is almost a sign someone doesn't understand ONI; deletes chlorine and wastes dupe time in exchange for germ killing you could get the same by just having the dupe run thru some chlorine, while also meaning dupes just run on by if it's in use like a sink? Who thought this was a good idea? It would make way more sense to make something that processes stuff automatically on conveyor rails.
Don't even get me started on the stupidity of the rust biome, it's like "introduce chlorine in a way that's cool in concept but then make it vanish over time and be really inconvenient so that players are just left annoyed by it" was a recurring design goal.

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I see a lot of builds in this thread using airlock doors to disable reservoirs. As I mentioned in my original post, that's no longer reliable. I started with such a build and tore it down after it failed. Water was leaving one of the reservoirs continuously even though the door underneath it was open.

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9 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said:

Water was leaving one of the reservoirs continuously even though the door underneath it was open.

Can you share a screenshot? That should not be possible

1 hour ago, nessumo said:

I am baffled why almost all people think that trickplays with bridges are always "simpler" than obvious automation

 

1 hour ago, wachunga said:

If you consider that a bridge trickplay, we live in very different realities. Any further conversation will be entirely fruitless.

I'm not taking sides here but let's keep things friendly, many players have different opinions on how to enjoy playing the game.  Lets not criticize the designs of other player builds unless they ask for help

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5 hours ago, nessumo said:

All your "just three reservoirs 10K/s full flow no automation" designs have one very simple problem: they can fail if polluted water source is not continuous, important bit being - they can fail, therefore they will fail. Only some kind of automation (timer/sensor/reservoir - whatever) guarantees no germs ever.

Ironically, this is probably the actual answer to my question: apparently pipe flow is too confusing to comprehend even when explained in a guide.

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3 hours ago, wachunga said:

Tepidizers. I think that's why they were put in the game in the first place?

But that heats up the water a lot. And then I can't easily use it for regular stuff without cooling it down again. I use my cleaned pee water for things like research and food. If you just electrolyze the water I away for example, then heating it is fine I suppose.

I agree that it's somewhat silly that a closed tank interacts the liquid inside, but chlorine disinfection is a real thing. A better implementation would be something like the ore scrubber that consumes some chlorine. Then you'd also have a bit of a chlorine sink. And yes, of course it would consume chlorine. That's not "ONI physics"

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5 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I see a lot of builds in this thread using airlock doors to disable reservoirs. As I mentioned in my original post, that's no longer reliable. I started with such a build and tore it down after it failed. Water was leaving one of the reservoirs continuously even though the door underneath it was open.

I have personally never seen this happen. Like I said, I've been using Saturnus' build since he posted it and have never had it fail.

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5 hours ago, Steve8 said:

But that heats up the water a lot. And then I can't easily use it for regular stuff without cooling it down again. I use my cleaned pee water for things like research and food. If you just electrolyze the water I away for example, then heating it is fine I suppose.

I agree that it's somewhat silly that a closed tank interacts the liquid inside, but chlorine disinfection is a real thing. A better implementation would be something like the ore scrubber that consumes some chlorine. Then you'd also have a bit of a chlorine sink. And yes, of course it would consume chlorine. That's not "ONI physics"

The problem is that in the real world, chlorine kept in the water to decontaminate it will get back out (generally by offgassing), but in ONI, there's no system for having "pollutants", and having a new "element" of "chlorinated water" that offgases chlorine to become regular water would just complicate everything and defeat the purpose, but losing chlorine over time would be a pretty annoying problem to have on maps without a chlorine geyser and not ridiculous piles of bleach stone lying around.
Having the building itself use a bit much power but keep the chlorine, implying it contains a recycling system built-in, would be ideal for actually being a viable replacement for reservoirs in a chlorine room.

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2 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

I have personally never seen this happen. Like I said, I've been using Saturnus' build since he posted it and have never had it fail.

I agree, a disabled reservoir CAN NOT leak liquids through it's output pipe

I think @Gus Smedstad had a flaw in his build that he didn't notice so he assumed the design was unreliable, but unless we can see the save file or at least a screenshot we can't be sure

Ether way you can still apply my design, just switch out the door with a liquid shutoff

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On 7/29/2020 at 5:52 PM, Nebbie said:

I just don't like the rule that gases interact directly with building contents. Why would you build a water tank building that is completely exposed to whatever the local atmosphere is? It makes for stupid problems when polluted oxygen gets near it, and the same is true for fridges.

Honestly I'd settle for being able to drop some bleach stone into a body of water to disinfect it, or maybe some kind of "Bubbler" machine I could feed Chlorine and infected Water/P20 into.

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2 hours ago, Kiros said:

Honestly I'd settle for being able to drop some bleach stone into a body of water to disinfect it.

I really like this idea. +1... it's just complicated enough to be more ONI'y, but just easy enough to make the problem approachable. The downside is that it won't be easy to automate in any way until later into the tech-tree... and if you wanted to get serious with it you'd need a mechatronics engineer. I think it makes more sense to build a counterpart to the water sieve. A building that consumes bleach stone in order to process water or polluted water, killing whatever germs are inside.

As for the chlorine rooms, I personally rely on bridges. Pipes are *not* intuitive, but they also aren't that complicated thankfully. They also have the advantage of requiring no refined metals, power, or sensors.

Below is my setup which I modified to use three tanks instead of two. I appropriated it from Karnath's "Compendium of amazing designs" (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2154398396) who I'm sure learned it from someone else. It could be done with a single bridge, but then the piping would be more spaghetts. 

Spoiler

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I hated the chlorine germ-killing when it came to ONI. I felt like water-cleaning was a bigger part of the game back then, and you'd see a lot of over-engineered water cleaners... kinda like natural-gas boilers nowadays. It felt "cheap" somehow, and it felt like it took something away from the game for me personally. I tried avoiding it... but eventually I gave in because it felt like I was beating my head against a wall out of sheer obstinacy. It just felt so silly to build over-engineered cleaning solutions when this is sooo easy and costs nothing. It's a difficult temptation to avoid... after all, it's part of the game lol. For the adventurous, there are plenty of methods using heat.
Below is a relatively simple tepidizer setup:

Spoiler

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It cleans 10kg/s. Input is 30C and output is around 80C. It's boring, and just kills germs. It's more effective if combined with an aquatuner, which cools the output and helps concentrate the heat where you want it... in the germ-killing chamber. The automation is set to something like "green if below 300 germs", which at normal operating temps means the output will be completely clean. If there's more than 300-350 germs in that tile, you risk some getting through. You might think of using pipes, and germs can indeed die while inside pipes; however, this build relies on the rules regarding fluids transferring from one tile to a neighbor tile to limit the amount of germs that can be introduced to a given tile. You'll find that the same amount of heat doesn't work nearly as well in a pipe-only solution. It can be made longer and run cooler... or shorter and run hotter. I typically do cooling elsewhere, usually included with wherever my central cooling area + steam turbine is set up.

EDIT: I forgot to mention about using counterflows to make it more efficient. Just build a heat exchanger where the clean warm output pre-heats (and is cooled by) the input to boost the power of this build.

 

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10 hours ago, Kiros said:

Honestly I'd settle for being able to drop some bleach stone into a body of water to disinfect it, or maybe some kind of "Bubbler" machine I could feed Chlorine and infected Water/P20 into.

I agree with this too.  We do it in real life with swimming pools.  How about a rock crusher recipe to crush bleach stone into chlorine powder, and then have a dispenser that adds it to the water 1 kg/cycle or something.

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1 hour ago, Tuplex said:

I agree with this too.  We do it in real life with swimming pools.  How about a rock crusher recipe to crush bleach stone into chlorine powder, and then have a dispenser that adds it to the water 1 kg/cycle or something.

We'll need a better way to produce bleach stone.  Squeaky puft ranching is a hassle

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8 hours ago, Neotuck said:

We'll need a better way to produce bleach stone.  Squeaky puft ranching is a hassle

But really only necessary if on a biome that doesn't have tons of bleachstone lying about. The tradeoff being that I currently have very little algae... Also, I've never actually done squeaky puft ranching, why is it a hassle? Is it because you need the puft princes? I remember looking into possibly starting a squeaky ranch recently, and when I got to the egg chances... I was like "pffft, princes... no thanks" I distinctly remember them being a pain because you have to micro to make sure you only have one... lest your ranch fill up with princes instead of actual pufts.

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16 minutes ago, impyre said:

But really only necessary if on a biome that doesn't have tons of bleachstone lying about. The tradeoff being that I currently have very little algae... Also, I've never actually done squeaky puft ranching, why is it a hassle? Is it because you need the puft princes? I remember looking into possibly starting a squeaky ranch recently, and when I got to the egg chances... I was like "pffft, princes... no thanks" I distinctly remember them being a pain because you have to micro to make sure you only have one... lest your ranch fill up with princes instead of actual pufts.

...yes

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I figured that I would throw my design in too.

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The buffer gates are set to 200s, and the filter gates are set to 4s (to give the doors time to open.)  After creating a vacuum, I put bleach stone in the storage bin, and then close in the room.  I have used this on my past few worlds.  The only issues I have had is when playing on the rime asteroid.  As I am sending all water types through this room,  Sometimes the regular water would cause the pipes to freeze.  Not ease to fix pipes after closing in the room.

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