(Speculation) Them, Metheus, the Moon and more

[Lucenix]

My feverish interpretation and random thoughts until we get anything more... definitive. Take this with a full jar of salt, as it is only some stupid but somewhat cool theory I had while I scour for clues and whatnot. If I didn't put it out of my system I would implode. (TL;DR at the end if I haven't forgotten it after all of this)

Maybe, They live outside all dimensions, maybe they live in a dimension of Their own. What we do know is that, when the Ancients activated the Gateway, they connected their world, the Constant, to Their Realm, and tapped into Their power, the magic of the Nightmare Fuel. The Ancients were gifted with enormous power, but, in exchange, They cursed the Constant, tearing the fabric with Their presence.

All that being said, in the current times They only seem to have an impact in the Constant through the Nightmare Throne, which gives power to someone but binds that someone to Their whims. How do we know that? Well, one piece of evidence is that, although the Shadow Monsters are created and sustained by Fuel, when we wear the Bone Helm, an item dropped by the Ancient Fuelweaver and, in a way, their King, they become neutral. That shows us that the Fuel is just that, fuel for magic, magic that most can control outside Their influence (Maxwell, Charlie's Monster and even the players through the Shadow Manipulator). My belief is that some power blocked Their influence, not without repercussions, power used to fight the darkness, and ultimately destroying the Gateway.

We have been shown someone who could oppose the powers of the dark, the unblinking eye, with some sort of light, someone who took a stance to protect her people against Them but ultimately failed, consumed: the Ancient Queen. How far of a stretch would it be to assume she didn't die, but just shed her skin like the rest of her people, like was shown with her cracked mask in the Metheus puzzle. The fuelweaver persisted, by grief and rage, through the Shadow Atrium. Maybe she became something else, unlike her people who adored the Fuel and, as a result, became Shadow Monsters, and unlike the Ancient Fuealweaver, who transfered his grief and consciousness, surviving through the Shadow Atrium, she used another power, a power that was truly opposed to the Fuel. Perhaps, the power of the Moon.

We know the Moon has characteristics antagonistic to those of the Fuel (moon glass cuts deeper into the shadow monsters / enlightment works opposite to insanity / there is a stated difference between one's magic and the other's).

Spoiler

We also can see that the color scheme of everything Moon related is really bright, contrasted with the darkness of the Fuel. That's all to say that I believe the power the Ancient Queen wielded is that of the Moon, or at the very least the entity that resides within it. By within I mean the same thing that some characters mean when they state that the Fuel seems to come from beneath. Different celestial bodies, different powers.

Let's take our speculation train a step further, by assuming Metheus is the Ancient Queen. Taking in account that Metheus "took heed" after the puzzles, puzzles in fact where we perform a particular set of steps that seem oddly like a ritual designed by an Ancient (Ancient runes in Ancient tablets leading to some set of items being put in an Ancient chest), there is some room to concoct a theory that it was designed by her, or at the least she noticed us caring about her lost civilization. That means that, one way or another, she is still out there, woken up by our actions. Maybe, looking down on us all.

Now, after all this mental gymnastics, it would be almost safe to assume that Metheus could be the one responding to Charlie's machinations, whatever those are, especially after The Gorge and The Forge and everything relating to the Throne, Gatekeepers and the energy she is taking from the Gateway. Metheus could be trying to stir the Moon and its power into affecting the Constant and fighting Them, but it wouldn't be coherent. Charlie is the Queen of this world, and she holds incredible power (she literally shapes the Constant), so she wouldn't allow that kind of revolt. Besides that, Return of Them's description rebuts all of this.

Quote

Charlie’s machinations have come to a head as she turns her attention towards the skies - and the mysterious entity that awaits there. Our Survivors will be forced to contend with terrifying monstrosities beyond their comprehension, and yet, there may be a silver lining: their minds and horizons will be expanded under the sublime light of an ancient moon.

Charlie was the one turning her head up to the sky, so Metheus wouldn't be actively doing anything. Nonetheless, the choice of words is consistent throughout the animations, though, especially the word Ancient to describe the Moon and the Entity residing within. That could mean several things. @Zeklo has a video about one of them (which holds a lot better than this malformed pile of nonsense). They have been here far longer than even the Ancients, and They are a lot more mysterious than them. Still, my theory is not this one.

Spoiler

 

What am I getting at? Assuming Charlie, consumed by shadows controlled by Them, serves Them, maybe she is trying to increase and expand Their reach and bring Them back at full force, and probably activating the Gateway was the first step to allow Them to be at our doorstep. The Moon, a symbol of rebellion against the dark, probably serves as a seal, a power holding Them back. Metheus is ready to fight alongside those that wish to bring Their destruction, and rebel against those that seek to break the Moon into pieces. That's why They are Returning, or at the very least, the stage is being set for Their return: the destruction of the Moon means a way clear for Their intrusion into the Constant, this time for good.

That's it. A natural consequence of all of this would be a boss fight against Metheus herself, akin to the Fuelweaver's one. That's the thought that made me go down this whole rabbit hole, trying to find a way to justify it. Either way, it's riddled with holes (Charlie setting up Celestial structures during A New Reign; the moon existing since the Ancient era; Charlie draining white energy from the Gateway; the Ancient Fuelweaver telling us that Charlie is not Them) but I hope you enjoyed this ride. Any thoughts you have please put them up! 

TL;DR — The Ancient Queen (aKa Metheus/Torch Wielder) survived in the same way that the Ancient Fuelweaver did. She is hiding in the Moon, a powerful seal holding Them back, that Charlie wants to take down, so that They can Return. We will see the Moon populating The Constant's ocean bit by bit, culminating in us fighting Metheus for the control (and probable destruction) of the Moon's magic.

 

Another way to look at things is that They aren't properly stuck to Shadow Magic. Maybe they are trying to find the White Pieces for Their Black Pieces: Moon VS Shadow. A game of chess for the ages, with the Constant as its board (as it has always been).

"They are unfathomable" says the Ancient Fuelweaver... They wouldn't restrict Themselves to just one type of magic... but now... all of them?

[Bluepufferfish]

Isn't the whole "ancient queen/metheus" stuff just speculation fueled by theorists (Zeklo for instance) or is there actual canon behind that? 

I'm interested in you're saying of the Moon's influence spreading over the ocean BUT most of the lunar island mobs have stayed in their respective areas without disturbing most people (of course crabking is a notable exception but the moon's power seems to be tied to its area which is why Hounds revive their and Wobster dens are corrupted around it). 

The "chess" metaphor would also be kind of cool but I'm honestly leaning towards that we're venturing for more dangerous game. (monopoly deal for instance). The chess game ended with Maxwell's adventure mode -checkmate if I recall- but I'm all for whatever happens next. 

[h1mk]

Them probably told charlie or her bad guy half crazy kookoo stuff, and now instead of being a shadow lord shes an evil red shadow lord, I kinda got this idea from the descriptions of the new twisted cosmetics. But like, the message I get from DS meta-story is that the generic shadow demons arent 'black and white evil',  even as they literally are black, and spooky, so then youre like, woooah thats deep. But now the next step is a super bad, or no elite puppetmaster at all, which, I think they will do something cool with it, but honestly, I think we either wont get a conclusion any time soon, or wont get a 'satisfying' good guys win bad guys lose ending. But I have no doubt this is the way the story is heading.

[Lucenix]

32 minutes ago, Bluepufferfish said:

Isn't the whole "ancient queen/metheus" stuff just speculation fueled by theorists (Zeklo for instance) or is there actual canon behind that?

Yes, it totally is! But well... Expanding on one idea isn't that bad to do... Until now we still don't have any concrete evidence besides the Ancient Fuelweaver knowing her name (and that she is, in fact, a she) and saying it out loud when deactivating the portal... Like in a mournful way. So I do believe she, at the very least, is the Ancient Queen (not going in further into she is Grue's Shadow half and down any more rabbit holes).

32 minutes ago, Bluepufferfish said:

I'm interested in you're saying of the Moon's influence spreading over the ocean BUT most of the lunar island mobs have stayed in their respective areas without disturbing most people (of course crabking is a notable exception but the moon's power seems to be tied to its area which is why Hounds revive their and Wobster dens are corrupted around it). 

That's actually a good point... But the explanation could be The Constant's corruption by the Shadow Magic... Shadow Monsters inhabit every single spec of land around main land... And in that land your sanity is constantly being drained in the dark (probably, by their very presence driving you mad). The forces are so opposed they cannot coexist, at least not in their pure form... Or something like that. You can take moon glass out of the island but Gestalts never attack you there... As you can also take a dark sword into the island but Shadow Monsters never spawn there... 

 

32 minutes ago, Bluepufferfish said:

The "chess" metaphor would also be kind of cool but I'm honestly leaning towards that we're venturing for more dangerous game. (monopoly deal for instance). The chess game ended with Maxwell's adventure mode -checkmate if I recall- but I'm all for whatever happens next. 

I agree that chess has been done for... The metaphor between the King(Maxwell) having strings attached by the player(Them) is cool but over. The second act, however, is where it's going to shine. Charlie is a performer, flamboyant and is setting everything up perfectly, readying her show... The show of our lives. Even Wortox mentions the stage being set when examining the new celestial thing from the Crab King(I can't remember its name)... We need to revaluate our metaphors...

 

13 minutes ago, Blunderbuss said:

the message I get from DS meta-story is that the generic shadow demons arent 'black and white evil'

 

I get that too... Shadow Magic is powerful but brings corruption... But so does the moon and its transformations... It's the balance between power and how you wield it, you either restrain yourself or you're destroyed.

13 minutes ago, Blunderbuss said:

but honestly, I think we either wont get a conclusion any time soon, or wont get a 'satisfying' good guys win bad guys lose ending. But I have no doubt this is the way the story is heading.

The conclusion may be miles away, and I believe that too, but there are important story beats to hit between now and the survivors escaping the Constant (like that's going to happen lul):

Knowing what happened with Charlie and her transformation; saving her from her corruption (I heard playable half shadow half human); knowing wassup with the moon; knowing wassup with the Gatekeepers; knowing wassup with Wagstaff... These goals can all be the catalysts for new update chains like A New Reign and Return of Them and thinking about the possibilities is so awesome.

[Moonatik]

It sounds like the final battle is coming... Or a new part, after the fuelweaver's one. We'll have the other side. Then will we fight Charlie at the end ? 

 

[Lucenix]

1 minute ago, Moonatik said:

It sounds like the final battle is coming... Or a new part, after the fuelweaver's one. We'll have the other side. Then will we fight Charlie at the end ? 

 

I wouldn't say that we are closing in on a final battle... They are only returning, They could have so much more to do before we face Them head on...

It would be poetic for our characters to fight the torchwielder next... Back to back the Ancient Rulers fought the lapdogs of the Throne that only did it for their survival... At the whims of a new queen, whose motives are still unknown.

[Dragonboooorn]

So much qustions unanswered... If only Wagstaff was here...

[Zeklo]

4 hours ago, Bluepufferfish said:

Isn't the whole "ancient queen/metheus" stuff just speculation fueled by theorists (Zeklo for instance) or is there actual canon behind that? 

The "Ancient Queen" is one of the terms used to refer to the Ancient with the torch (sometimes for the staff one too, confusing). It arose from the community most likely due to their softer/smaller features. Not the best details to base it off of but that kind of thing is common themeing for art.

Metheus is a name said by the Fuelweaver, but also mentioned during the [aptly named] Metheus puzzle. The puzzle which rewards the Ancient Cane skin. Hmm.

As far as what is said by devs, we have a [previously] confirmed gender indicating Metheus is female (and Fuelweaver male).

Anything beyond that-like Metheus=Ancient Queen-is speculation, but not speculation without some resemblence of backing.

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

I believe a right ending would be "us" saving her from "Them" and then unlocking her, like with Maxy in the end of singleplayer DS. Plus remember. we are missing a huge chunk of information on how she got transformed when she and Maxy entered the constant, she could be possessed by Metheus, that's what I think.

Spoiler

I still keep thinking what perks she could have if she were to get released as a character. Maybe shadow creatures could be always neutral towards her? 

 

[Lucenix]

1 minute ago, Charlie Dark said:

I believe a right ending would be "us" saving her from "Them" and then unlocking her, like with Maxy in the end of singleplayer DS. Plus remember. we are missing a huge chunk of information on how she got transformed when she and Maxy entered the constant, she could be possessed by Metheus, that's what I think.

I love that theory, I even wrote a whole dialogue between Charlie and Metheus when they were merging... but it skips a little into the timeline, as Charlie transformed and merged with her Shadow self before Metheus took heed. Nonetheless, it would be awesome for the former Queen to get a second chance, wrapped in the cloth of her destroyers in an effort to take Them down. Charlie wants something else... It feels too reductive to think (as I did in the original post) that she would only serve Their orders, she seems a lot more capable than that... We'll have to wait and see.

Also, Metheus is never really shown harnessing the Fuel, except for the second mural, which is not really conclusive. Fuel corrupted all who used it, would it consume those who fought against it? We'll have to wait and see.

4 minutes ago, Charlie Dark said:

 

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I still keep thinking what perks she could have if she were to get released as a character. Maybe shadow creatures could be always neutral towards her? 

 

I don't know to what extent would saving her mean uncorrupting her from the shadows, nor taking her out of the Throne. She could be forever scarred by the first one (the light hurting her; she needs to maintain her form with Fuel, a resource that becomes scarce after They are gone) or, if she maintains her Throne powers, literally Creative Mode in DST.

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

1 minute ago, Lucenix said:

I love that theory, I even wrote a whole dialogue between Charlie and Metheus when they were merging... but it skips a little into the timeline, as Charlie transformed and merged with her Shadow self before Metheus took heed. Nonetheless, it would be awesome for the former Queen to get a second chance, wrapped in the cloth of her destroyers in an effort to take Them down. Charlie wants something else... It feels too reductive to think (as I did in the original post) that she would only serve Their orders, she seems a lot more capable than that... We'll have to wait and see.

Also, Metheus is never really shown harnessing the Fuel, except for the second mural, which is not really conclusive. Fuel corrupted all who used it, would it consume those who fought against it? We'll have to wait and see.

I don't know to what extent would saving her mean uncorrupting her from the shadows, nor taking her out of the Throne. She could be forever scarred by the first one (the light hurting her; she needs to maintain her form with Fuel, a resource that becomes scarce after They are gone) or, if she maintains her Throne powers, literally Creative Mode in DST.

No... that would be too overpowered... Plus who knows? she could be freed from her demons, anything is possible in this world, a man entered it, survived the impossible, and dethroned the "king of the constant" They could do it again.

Spoiler

if she had the perk "the shadow queen" and shadow creatures were neutral to her, she'd instantly become a tier A character I think she shouldn't be stupidly overpowered etc.

 

[Lucenix]

Just now, Charlie Dark said:

No... that would be too overpowered... Plus who knows? she could be freed from her demons, anything is possible in this world, a man entered it, survived the impossible, and dethroned the "king of the constant" They could do it again.

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if she had the perk "the shadow queen" and shadow creatures were neutral to her, she'd instantly become a tier A character I think she shouldn't be stupidly overpowered etc.

 

Wilson is still unscathed, that's true, but those who dabble fully in the dark arts can't really return as they went in...

Spoiler

Taking in account that we would want to play Charlie alongside other characters it would be overpowered for one of them to literally rule the whole world. I feel like shadow creatures being neutral is just... the Bone Helm from the getgo. She could have extra crafting that allowed her to modify shadows or the sort (she did create the shadow pieces, right?). Also, I think that between now and her liberation her power would have grown so, so much: she is already draining up power from the Gateway and the Gate Realms (like adding new territories to her domain) and draining up the Moon... So many possibilities...

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

Hmm, I want to believe my theory but there's also an other one, that "she's omnipresent" but this is far too complicated to discuss, and breaks the 4th wall too, it would be very confusing to understand or explain.

for example, if Charlie can be anywhere at anytime in the darkness can she be in more than one places too? See? Doesn't that sound confusing...?

[Lucenix]

1 hour ago, Charlie Dark said:

Hmm, I want to believe my theory but there's also an other one, that "she's omnipresent" but this is far too complicated to discuss, and breaks the 4th wall too, it would be very confusing to understand or explain.

for example, if Charlie can be anywhere at anytime in the darkness can she be in more than one places too? See? Doesn't that sound confusing...?

It's a little bit confusing to imagine Charlie just being in two places and attacking different survivors and it doesn't really fit in, does it? It's weird to think that something in this world has that capability to be omnipresent because nothing in the whole game points to that idea, nor paves the ground to that kind of reasoning. It could be true, but it wouldn't be satisfying.

Because of that I think your theory is far better as a theory than the "omnipresent" one as yours brings up interesting story elements and makes sense inside the world, reusing elements we have seen before. My feeling towards saying she is omnipresent is one of confusion and emptyness.

It feels lazy and circular to just say "well she can be in two places at the same time because she is omnipresent, and she is omnipresent because that's one of the powers of the Throne, and we know it is one of the powers of the Throne because she can be in two places at the same time", ergo "she can be in two places at the same time because she can be in two places at the same time". I don't like it.

Also, who would know better than Charlie herself how her powers work... or maybe she doesn't know yet hm...

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

Yes, see how confusing it got? And we can't assume what kind of powers she possesses and doesn't... We need more Charlie lore!

[minespatch]

Just now, Charlie Dark said:

We need more Charlie lore

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

1 hour ago, minespatch said:

Oh Umm... T-that's just the beefalo tradesman* guy!

[minespatch]

7 minutes ago, Charlie Dark said:

Oh Umm... T-that's just the beefalo salesman guy!

Why is he in the Constant and who is his boss?

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

1 minute ago, minespatch said:

Why is he in the Constant and who is his boss?

I wouldn't know...

[Lucenix]

I know! He was Maxwell's second experiment towards transforming humans into animals for his own world. He transformed what once was the Ancient Guardian into that abomination (trying to replicate his Rook clockwork). This one was transformed into half-Beefalo and now he is... like this. Also, Maxwell needed a merch manager so badabimbadaboom there he is.

Actually, he only appeared in DST so...

Charlie needed an assistant to manage her glorious line of survivor clothing (patent pending) so she hired someone that was just mumbling around the Realms. Maybe, Beefalo-Man™ was the Gatekeeper Mumsy said had once passed through the Gorge in his way to become the best... whatever he is. A story about success and plot contrivances! Don't miss it, because we won't.

[Moonatik]

At some point, in a moment of lucidity, she could remember everything. And she could try to save everyone from the constant (that final battle), but the ancient gods Them whatever wouldn't be happy to loose the control on her. They could try to kill her, to kill us. At the end, few possibilities. She could die, by saving us, or the throne could be destroy by Them. Then she could be a playable character. All would be stuck forever, and something worst could replace the throne's power. Everything would change for us, players. But Charlie, with some great powers, would be very useful to keep everyone alive. DST 2.0 the great RPG adventure game, the end of the constant.

 

[Lucenix]

4 hours ago, Charlie Dark said:

Yes, see how confusing it got? And we can't assume what kind of powers she possesses and doesn't... We need more Charlie lore!

The only powers we know she, at the least, has are those that we saw Maxwell wield, so assuming she could summon puppets isn't any stretch and explains a lot so props to you for realizing and getting to that conclusion!

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

3 minutes ago, Moonatik said:

At some point, in a moment of lucidity, she could remember everything. And she could try to save everyone from the constant (that final battle), but the ancient gods Them whatever wouldn't be happy to loose the control on her. They could try to kill her, to kill us. At the end, few possibilities. She could die, by saving us, or the throne could be destroy by Them. Then she could be a playable character. All would be stuck forever, and something worst could replace the throne's power. Everything would change for us, players. But Charlie, with some great powers, would be very useful to keep everyone alive. DST 2.0 the great RPG adventure game, the end of the constant.

 

She is extremely important to the game's story and lore. Someday, something big will  happen with her, I'm positive, we just have to wait and see, characters like these don't just "die". I hope...

[Lucenix]

7 minutes ago, Charlie Dark said:

She is extremely important to the game's story and lore. Someday, something big will  happen with her, I'm positive, we just have to wait and see, characters like these don't just "die". I hope...

Can they die really? I mean, forever? It's canon Wilson does die, like, a lot, sooo... I imagine it like soul trapping someone into some another plane, dying just to come back. Maxwell was important to Them, until They got tired of him and just trapped him like anyother instead.

I just want to know what Charlie is up to, it would make it a lot clearer moving forward... What does she want, who does she serve (if she serves anyone beside herself), what's her plan, what happened during the transformation, what is her shadow half... So many stuff to know, so little answers

They can be the real antagonist but They don't do much, They just set up the board and then just watch the game unfold itself... Charlie is the one pulling the strings... I just want to know what does it mean for the Return of Them, like how will They return, why and who is making Them return.

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

4 minutes ago, Lucenix said:

Can they die really? I mean, forever? It's canon Wilson does die, like, a lot, sooo... I imagine it like soul trapping someone into some another plane, dying just to come back. Maxwell was important to Them, until They got tired of him and just trapped him like anyother instead.

I just want to know what Charlie is up to, it would make it a lot clearer moving forward... What does she want, who does she serve (if she serves anyone beside herself), what's her plan, what happened during the transformation, what is her shadow half... So many stuff to know, so little answers

They can be the real antagonist but They don't do much, They just set up the board and then just watch the game unfold itself... Charlie is the one pulling the strings... I just want to know what does it mean for the Return of Them, like how will They return, why and who is making Them return.

We cannot know anything about Them until They return... hopefully soon. And I hope that the story will start to unravel even more.

27 minutes ago, Moonatik said:

DST 2.0 the great RPG adventure game, the end of the constant.

Don't starve, To-Get-Her