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Toros

Wolfgang Rework Brainstorm Thread

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Toros    1685

It's not a secret that I'm a Wolfgang main since he was implemented in Don't Starve, but for the past couple years I've been using a mod I wrote that nerfed his stats and speed boost to bring him more in line with what I consider balanced survivors.  I don't think his kit has room to add fun and interesting perks unless the free stats are taken away.

So I'm starting a thread to hopefully inspire some of you to brainstorm some fun and interesting perks that he could have assuming his stats are cut down to a reasonable level.

My plan is that I'm going to propose a heavily nerfed Wolfgang as a base that we can brainstorm some fun perks to add to since just adding perks given his current mechanical strength is absurd.

To me, Wolfgang's damage while mighty is his primary advantage (especially for solo players who want to fight raid bosses) and I'm reluctant to reduce it since being good at fighting bosses has been such a core part of his identity.

What I've been playing with and have been enjoying are the following changes:

Edited as I've implemented features based on suggestions and my own brainstorming

200 max hp in normal + mighty form (higher than average health but gives Wigfrid the defensive advantage)

150 max sanity with a 1.3x sanity loss modifier (down from 200 and 1.1x) - this also puts him more on par with Wigfrid and Willow's sanity

No speed boost - I expect this to be controversial but speed is notoriously difficult to balance and it means you don't have to relearn kiting patterns to play Wolfgang (or the annoyance of your speed changing during combat which can easily cause you to take extra hits).  I think it would be more fun to see his power in other areas.

Normal form has a 1.25x damage multiplier (same as Wigfrid) - Normal form Wolfgang doesn't have much going for him, this small damage boost makes him above average fighting even without going mighty.

Transform animation can be cancelled by moving - This is a big issue for a lot of people, and I don't think anyone enjoys it, so might as well remove it.

I think this forms a solid base that we could add interesting perks and downsides to make playing Wolfgang more fun.

I've been playing around lately with a couple minor perks.

Ignores marble + piggyback slowdown while not wimpy - This is to give unloved items an extra bonus in his hands, and fits with him being strong.  Also gives normal Wolfgang some minor perks.

Can equip heavy objects on his back like a backpack and move at normal speed (can also use hand slot) while mighty - This effectively lets Wolfgang compete with Beefalo as a pack mule as with a cane he can move suspicious marble much, much faster as well as have an easier time setting up sculpture walls and decoration.  Normal Wolfgang can carry heavy items the usual way but faster (0.45x speed instead of 0.15x speed)

Greatly improved rowing while mighty - Oars aren't very good for getting around on a boat, but rowing is very much an activity where strength matters.  Sails are much faster for less work as a player, but this lets Wolfgang make boats much more maneuverable and makes short trips viable even without a sail if you're willing to spend food to stay mighty.

You might be thinking "these perks are cool but they aren't very useful" and I'd agree.  That was the point.  Wolfgang will always be valuable for his damage and I wanted him to have interesting things going on that didn't involve fighting or encroach on other characters.  That they both logically play into his "strongman" motif makes sense to me.

More shadow creatures will spawn at low sanity - When Wolfgang is under some threshold of sanity (currently 10% of 150 max, so less than 15 sanity) he will have induced insanity which is the same effect as a purple amulet.  The importance of this effect is that it allows up to 5 shadow creatures to spawn simultaneously instead of 1-2.  This makes going fully insane much more dangerous in general as you can get swarmed, but also allows a group to use an insane Wolfgang to farm nightmare fuel faster.  Importantly, it's not possible currently for a solo Wolfgang to benefit much from this effect as any shadow he kills will instantly put him out of the induced insanity, and if he kills a terror beak he'll be too sane to fight the remaining ones.

If we can come up with some cool ideas (within my coding abilities) I'd like to implement them so we could actually test them.

If you'd like to test this WIP mod yourself and provide feedback, here's a link

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1205119975

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bitcrushed_rage    1227

I actually like the idea of him adding extra use to marble armor and the piggyback. Honestly, I'd prefer that to be something you only get to have if you're in normal/mighty form, instead of just mighty (so we don't have to see as many sad, wimpy Wolfgangs)

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Toros    1685
2 minutes ago, bitcrushed_rage said:

I actually like the idea of him adding extra use to marble armor and the piggyback. Honestly, I'd prefer that to be something you only get to have if you're in normal/mighty form, instead of just mighty (so we don't have to see as many sad, wimpy Wolfgangs)

I realized I forgot that in the current version of my rework I let normal wolfgang carry heavy items 3x normal speed (which ends up being only 45% normal walking speed) but I agree that normal Wolfgang could probably use some love.

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bitcrushed_rage    1227
6 minutes ago, Toros said:

I realized I forgot that in the current version of my rework I let normal wolfgang carry heavy items 3x normal speed (which ends up being only 45% normal walking speed) but I agree that normal Wolfgang could probably use some love.

Like... normal Wolfgang is just kind of a normal character except he gets hungry quicker. I know that's his downside, but I would be totally fine with mighty getting taken down a peg and normal getting a bit stronger

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Shosuko    2315

I like the idea of him getting a strongman circus dumbbell that he would pump (at a cost of hunger) to gain mighty instead of just eating.  Then he could lend this to his weaker team mates who could gain a lesser strength boost pumping the weights too.  I could Imagine him running around constantly pumping weights to keep mighty lol

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Lukmendes    70

Considering that Wolgang seems to like to show off his strength, maybe doing something like carrying heavy items (Which would include armor that slows him down as you already listed) could do something for him? Maybe recover his HP a bit, or get a bit of sanity back, or maybe keep the Mighty form active for longer, or maybe something else, point is to give players a reason to want to do that kind of stuff.

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Toros    1685
10 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I like the idea of him getting a strongman circus dumbbell that he would pump (at a cost of hunger) to gain mighty instead of just eating.  Then he could lend this to his weaker team mates who could gain a lesser strength boost pumping the weights too.  I could Imagine him running around constantly pumping weights to keep mighty lol

This is a really cool idea, but adding new animations is beyond my capabilities (and especially beyond my artistic capabilities)

8 minutes ago, Lukmendes said:

Considering that Wolgang seems to like to show off his strength, maybe doing something like carrying heavy items (Which would include armor that slows him down as you already listed) could do something for him? Maybe recover his HP a bit, or get a bit of sanity back, or maybe keep the Mighty form active for longer, or maybe something else, point is to give players a reason to want to do that kind of stuff.

I find it hilarious to think that if he got sanity back from carrying something heavy, he would have the Wolfgang equivalent of a security blanket that he dragged everywhere... but it's a big rock.

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Mike23Ua    6411

Take away his speed boost, give him no movement penalty while wearing armor that would slow others down.. 

let him be mighty not by eating food but through actually working out. Can share his workout equipment to give others small damage buffs.

Let him carry heavy stuff like the marble statues less slowly..

Make sure you actually bring his Myriad of Phobias into his actual GAMEPLAY in some form or another.. 

And allow him to throw Teammates while in Mighty Form. (Would be super useful to cross gaps) Or in poor @Shosuko case.... reaching his boat that’s out of range. XD 

Thats about it I can think of for Wolfgang, I’d love to see him being LESS OP as Hell... and More of a Scaredy Cat But Strongman with a Soft Heart. 

You know- Like most of Klei’s Official art designs depict him as being. :) 

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Toros    1685
16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Take away his speed boost, give him no movement penalty while wearing armor that would slow others down.. 

let him be mighty not by eating food but through actually working out. Can share his workout equipment to give others small damage buffs.

Let him carry heavy stuff like the marble statues less slowly..

Make sure you actually bring his Myriad of Phobias into his actual GAMEPLAY in some form or another.. 

And allow him to throw Teammates while in Mighty Form. (Would be super useful to cross gaps) Or in poor @Shosuko case.... reaching his boat that’s out of range. XD 

Thats about it I can think of for Wolfgang, I’d love to see him being LESS OP as Hell... and More of a Scaredy Cat But Strongman with a Soft Heart. 

You know- Like most of Klei’s Official art designs depict him as being. :) 

Can you describe a fun way to implement his "myriad of phobias"?  I get the theme but I'm looking for specific ideas.

Throwing teammates is a really fun mechanic, but it also presents several things to consider particularly regarding grief potential.

Example: What if Wolfgang throws you into the ocean/into the void/into a pit of tentacles?  The first two would be easier to account for, but not the latter (and throwing being pvp only would reduce its helpful potential as well).

Example2: Does that ability step on the toes of Wortox too much considering boats already allow permanent surface bridges?

Also, I've finished my initial coding for Wolfgang carrying heavy things on his back and this is what it looks like:

WolfHaul.PNG

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Mike23Ua    6411

The Throwing ability idea I had was actually borrowing from Wortox, when your playing Wortox on Xbox One there is a little colored indicator that shows where you’ll soul hop to.

You asked how do you prevent grieving with throwing- That answers quite simple. Wolfgang can go into a Throwing position and while in the position stands completely still, The other player will see the location Wolfgang’s indicator has them lined up to be thrown to, Wolfgang can not change this position after he goes into position, The other player can then simply walk up to Wolfgang and hit their interact button to agree to being thrown to the location Wolfgang has marked.

Obviously they couldn’t have given this ability to teleport team mates to a Wortox because then it steps into Curt Wagner Territories. 

As for his phobias, I don’t know HOW that should work.. but I picture maybe the more enemies he’s fighting the less damage he will do, effectively making him terrible at “Spider Farming” for example.

But the Theory behind that is if he is scared of one Spider... he isn’t going to suddenly be any less scared when facing hundreds of them.

I should also mention that Wortox can’t soul hop into lava, into the ocean or off a cliff soooooo yeah Wolfgang would be the same way.

(Maybe For PVP Only he could though! Lol.)

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blacknight7890    308

Personally, I would like to increase his sanity drain to like 1.5x, but that might be a bit much, needs some testing probably.

interesting idea is that if we assume pumping the iron is how he gets his strength over just gorgeing himself, then maybe lifting heavy objects or wearing heavy armor/backpacks helps maintain mightiness, or atleast slow down its loss. this would encourage him to wear marble armor and use piggybacks. Having a meter to see his mightiness might also help since it would no longer be tied to his hunger

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ButterStuffed    1887

My brainstorm idea is something I’ve deemed “Feats of Strength”

Wolfgang is strong! But is sometimes not confident in his abilities because of his fear of everything. In order for Wolfgang to be able to fight scary monsters with full confidence he needs to prove his strength to others and himself (mostly himself).

Wolfgang must use heavy objects in the world to show everyone (especially himself) that he is worthy of the strongman title. Objects like boulders, beefalo, sculptures and maybe even pigmen can be deadlifted into the air when mighty. (Probably give this ability a cool down or a hunger requirement) This gives Wolfgang feats of strength which can be used to give him the confidence to fight properly. Otherwise Wolfgang will have an obscene amount of sanity damage (or some other negative) when fighting enemies with no prepared feats of strength.

If Wolfgang prepares himself before a big fight by performing multiple feats of strength without using them up he will gain either even more damage for a short time or an initial extremely high damage attack on the next enemy that is hit. The idea is that Wolfgang has to mentally prepare himself to fight the big scary monsters in the world.

Another thing to make it so his downside is actually a downside could be that Wolfgang could be very bad at fighting shadow creatures in some way making it an actual threat to his life when he is insane.

This sounds like it would be interesting. Hopefully a bit more interesting than just hoarding a bunch of food to fight better.

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pedregales    456

I guess to have a "strong grip" (I think similar to Wurt) while mighty would be nice.

Maybe also add some damage resistance based on sanity? To make it simple: if his sanity is 25 (from 150) his damage resistance is -10%, while if his sanity is at 125 (from 150), his damage resistance is +10%. This would make balancing his sanity very important, and makes his nightmare fuel farming slightly risky, also makes his sanity loss more of a hindrance. This of course, will only work with it's actual sanity, so items that induce sanity (purple amulet and bone helm) have no direct effect on his damage resistance. Kind of complex to implement and for the player to know if sanity induced or in the lunar island, but just giving it there.

If there are other players around his sanity loss could be less severe, I would also make it stronger (x1.5 sanity loss, and it goes down by 0.1 for every other player nearby). He seems to enjoy company a lot.

He can harvest more 2 crops instead of 1 from farming crops. He is said to have a green thumb after all. Although something else would definitely be better.

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Justad00d    1

These sound like amazing and fun ideas :D I think the feats of strength thing could be great, and I could see making it raise sanity in a similar way to blue printing, in that each item lifted can only give that sanity buff once, and different items take different hunger levels.

 

One new idea that could be funny is to make him able to piggy back other characters and maybe mobs like bunnymen and pigs when befriended. In case you wanted to move pigs or bishops or bunnymen with the lazy explorer instead of the telelocator staff for set designing or whatever, but still would be funny, and in survival maybe it raises both players sanity to do that. Maybe you can aim to throw while in this position too, but the player maybe has to press something when Wolfgang's textbox announces that he's ready to throw, and pigments and bunnymen can't "consent" so they agro when you do it to them. Maybe he can just chuck items from his inventory as projectiles, for weak damage when he's in his whimpy form, like he's flailing to survive, to avoid sanity drain from standing too close to enemies when low on HP

 

As far as sanity stuff goes, I like the idea of him taking more damage as he lowers in sanity. I think in mighty he should stand above wigfrid in every way, but maybe in normal mode, the sanity makes a bigger difference on output of damage and intake. After all, if we're planning on making Mighty a mode that toggles after an activation of some kind, it would make sense that his normal status should be changed to push players to use it more. But I still think he should be able to carry heavy stuff as normal Wolfgang, but specifically I imagine that the heavy marble etc. should be able to toggle to take up the hand slot or the chest slot, since he can properly lift with his (twig) legs, but this way he can still keep his backpack items, and maybe get twice the sanity buff when he carries more heavy stuff, but at the cost of faster hunger loss. Just a couple of ideas

 

Edit: also, maybe he takes less swings with tools to chop stuff at the cost of durability. Maybe make this only happen during Mighty form, but I picture normal wolfgang accidentally breaking **** in one swing. I think this would be great if ultimately calculated to net better efficiency for most, if not all items, i.e. more wood gathered per axe, more stone per pickaxe, and breaking structures super fast with hammers, but it would still make sense if he got less efficiency out of each tool, cause he'd just be trading twigs and flint for wood faster than other characters. Making weapon durability wear out faster would make a bigger damage buff more reasonable for sure, since it's fast damage at the trade of running out of resources faster, and this would definitely encourage making a lot of hambats over anything else

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camelot    214

Watch a Mighty Wolfgang running around make other players feel more energetic, so everyone have 10% speed boost. The aura's radius is about 1 turf

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Moonatik    352

What if he couldnt fight for a second or two when he's scared ? We could still walk, but not be able to hit. He could have an animation like the one we have during the fuelweaver fight, when darkness comes to the player. A sort of...

He would be stressed and couldn't do anything but walk. I think that his fear should act more than simply on sanity, or on his different stats. A kind of crisis, at any moment, always unexpected.

I like the idea to train him like we did with the carrat, but.... I'm not sure of that !

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Mike23Ua    6411

In mighty form shouldn’t he be able to just Pigman/Merm punch and break boulders without needing a Pickaxe?

There are ALOT of Fun ways Klei can Rework Wolfgang...

 

One Thing I BEG Klei to do is to allow him to pick up and move those freaking large boulders that Antlion Cave collapses cause down in caves. 

Too many times I’ve had Antlion rocks fall on a cave entrance tunnel and I couldn’t mine the rocks out of the way so I couldn’t ever use that Exit point ever again.

Ive actually had to reset worlds because I got stuck down in caves thanks to this oversight.

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Toros    1685

@Mike23Ua You can already pick up the antlion cave in boulders on PC, I'd be surprised if you couldn't on PS4.

@Moonatik While a cool idea, self stuns happening randomly during combat are very frustrating to deal with as a player.  A lot of people who play Wolfgang already get annoyed with getting stuck in transformation animations because it very easily can lead you to getting hit (or getting hit a lot if fighting groups of enemies due to stunlocks).

Strong grip (like Wurt) or breaking boulders is definitely something I could implement, piggybacking and throwing people is beyond my capabilities (and time to code) for the near future.

@Justad00d It would make perfect sense for Wolfgang to be able to do work faster when mighty but I worry that if he was good at it (even with extra tool durability loss) it would encroach on what gatherer characters are best at.  Maxwell, for instance.

@pedregales I really like the idea of him losing less sanity when having more players around.  It doesn't help a solo Wolfgang but improves him in groups (where his damage boost is a lot less valuable).

@Charlie Dark My reworked version already has 1.3x sanity loss instead of the 1.5x sanity loss in the Uncompromising mod, but they don't reduce Wolfgang's stats or speed so it depends where you want to keep his power.

Great ideas everyone, this was exactly what I was hoping for when I made this thread!

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ArubaroBeefalo    3487

i think the marble suit, the piggy bag and suspicious marble perk has sense and i like it because how could change the gameplay. Getting piggy bag without penalty instead of 20% speed boost sounds more balance to me.

also he could have more slots when mighty and less with low belly so if he wants to carry more stuff needs to eat a lot of food or he will drop the items 

for the phobias perk, idk. I would be happy with an actually real sanity loss not what we have now with his 300 sanity and his damage you dont have time enough to go insane (and even then you can stop fighting the boss to kill a shadow with few hits..)

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Mysterious box    300

I think another thematic downside that would work is having his weapons break a lot faster I mean he's hitting harder with them which would only make sense he'd wear them out faster I'd say at about 3.5 to 4 times the normal rate would be good and while that might seem like a lot remember he does twice the damage of a normal character that being said I think the durability decrease should be less extreme in non mighty forms. To go along with that I think non durability should be given a durability when he wields them.

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Bird Up    1776

I would literally never use wolfgang over wig if those changes went through. Flat out nerfing him hard is something i'm absolutely not a fan of.

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Justad00d    1

Now that I think about it, if we made it so he can walk around with marble suits lile normal, it would make balancing sense that normally he should be ABLE to take more damage, if for instance we made him take more damage when insane. We could go the other way too and make it so he takes less damage when insane, kinda like when he's sane, he's more cocky and tanking hits without worrying, but in front of monsters, when he gets terrified, his armor goes up and his power goes down. That would make sense too. It would be annoying to keep track of, but it would make fighting shadow monsters go slower the more you let sanity effect you, and more risky the more wildly you charge in. But these ideas are not all totally necessary to work together. And keep in mind he'll be able to walk around with marble armor if we do this.

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Toros    1685
57 minutes ago, Bird Up said:

I would literally never use wolfgang over wig if those changes went through. Flat out nerfing him hard is something i'm absolutely not a fan of.

Can you elaborate on this more?

If we compare nerfed Wolfgang to Wigfrid, while mighty

Wolf Hp = 200

Wig Hp = 200

Wolf sanity = 150

Wig sanity = 120

Wolf damage resist = 0

Wig damage resist = 25%

Wolf damage = 1.9x-2x

Wig damage = 1.25x

Wig movespeed = 1x

Wolf movespeed = 1x

This seems like a pretty equivalently balanced base to work off from, as it's my intention to add perks while leaving Wigfrid and Wolfgang as roughly the same in mechanical strength.  She is better at defense and early game, he's better at offense and lategame, so I'm not seeing why you would "literally never use wolfgang" over these changes.

Again though, it would be great if you elaborated.

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Charlie Dark    4071
6 minutes ago, Toros said:

Can you elaborate on this more?

If we compare nerfed Wolfgang to Wigfrid, while mighty

Wolf Hp = 200

Wig Hp = 200

Wolf sanity = 150

Wig sanity = 120

Wolf damage resist = 0

Wig damage resist = 25%

Wolf damage = 1.9x-2x

Wig damage = 1.25x

Wig movespeed = 1x

Wolf movespeed = 1x

This seems like a pretty equivalently balanced base to work off from, as it's my intention to add perks while leaving Wigfrid and Wolfgang as roughly the same in mechanical strength.  She is better at defense and early game, he's better at offense and lategame, so I'm not seeing why you would "literally never use wolfgang" over these changes.

Again though, it would be great if you elaborated.

I agree with you. You like characters that have actual downsides and fewer upsides.. In my head and your head this idea of how to nerf wolfgang is great! But I'm sure others would complain a lot...  if KLEI did nerf him like this

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