Jump to content

Wolfgang Rework Brainstorm Thread


Recommended Posts

59 minutes ago, Toros said:

Can you elaborate on this more?

If we compare nerfed Wolfgang to Wigfrid, while mighty

Wolf Hp = 200

Wig Hp = 200

Wolf sanity = 150

Wig sanity = 120

Wolf damage resist = 0

Wig damage resist = 25%

Wolf damage = 1.9x-2x

Wig damage = 1.25x

Wig movespeed = 1x

Wolf movespeed = 1x

This seems like a pretty equivalently balanced base to work off from, as it's my intention to add perks while leaving Wigfrid and Wolfgang as roughly the same in mechanical strength.  She is better at defense and early game, he's better at offense and lategame, so I'm not seeing why you would "literally never use wolfgang" over these changes.

Again though, it would be great if you elaborated.

For me the key difference in why I favor Wig over Wolf even now, not to mention proposed nerfed version, is the 25% dmg resist and her ability to make right-out-of-the-bat cheap-yet-good armor and weapon (plus the constant 1.25x dmg modifier). For newbies/noobs, mediocre people at the game and people generally lagging and/or rubberbanding this character is a proverbial God-send - can clearly be seen in server-pickings. Obviously a mighty Wolfgang is mechanically superior, but the underline is how you must keep him mighty: by constantly eating a lot of food (or else you are back to default stats or worse yet, wimpy form). Sure food is easily obtainable in default WorldGen settings, but for most people it seems this constant food-run is a drag and prefer the leaser alternative between Wolf and Wig, yet more reliable even in face of adversity (occasional starving, no "deflating" animation that stunts you) - probably solely on the 3 key-aspects I've pointed.

I don't play current Wolf almost at all (Willow and Wendy co-main atm) for various reasons, starting with his personality and implied back-story (coming from an ex-communist country and its hardships of which West has no actual clues I loathe everything commie-related) and finishing with him being a food vacuum if one wants to take advantage of his pros (again coming from an ex-communist country and knowing what constant food shortage is, it affected my food-conferred value in general). Thus I don't really care if Wolf gets nerfed to the ground. But with what I've read here, I don't see the actual fun of proposed "rework": I don't need a character to carry some statues heads when Beefs can be partially tamed for this purpose, taking his speed value speaks for itself in eyes of player-bulk, etc. If anything, such a rework would make me personally cross-out Wolf definitively from character picks in future, as Wigfrid would appear in the mentioned mindset an even more attractive choice.

 

But here is 1 proposal from me for on-topic: make Wolfgang use Marble Suit, and carry heavy stuff at 1x speed independent of mighty form (aka make it a constant). Keep mighty form modifying the damage output, but don't affect speed reduction. If going for a Strong Man approach, make him physique-able constantly in using those items without speed penalty. That for me would make Wolf unique, and be lore-consistent as, you know, having additional muscle mass and showing for it. And you can even have rest of proposed nerfs, the fact alone I can have something unique in combat as Wolf would elevate him in my eyes above Wig stats at times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is ideas for WOLFGANG Rework, sure you can totally pick Wigfrid over him... I guess but do keep in mind Wigfrid is also getting her OWN Rework eventually and being a Mighty Viking Warrior is only a Stage Art Performance act she took too far & lost most of who she really is for the sake of wanting to be a good stage actor.

It would be roughly the same as say some totally normal human being playing Joker in a Batman movie and then never being able to fully snap out of that role again..

And with questionable things like a playable character named Winnifred (Aka Winnie) who looks an awful lot Like Wigfrid being in Klei’s scrapped character concepts- A blonde headed farmer girl who is a vegetarian “Little Bo-Peep style” Its hard to say WHAT Wigfrid is actually like outside of the Viking Act.

Is she a vegetarian who got so caught up in her role of being a mighty Viking Warrior that she forgets that she actually HATES eating meat? 

My point is that Until both Wolfgang & Wigfrid receive their Reworks- It would be very unfair and unrealistic to compare the two.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is only ONE thing I want, and have _always_ wanted, for any potential Wolfgang rework:

MAKE THE SHRINKING ANIMATIONS NOT F###ING _STOP_ YOU!!!  Or at the very least, give us a few frames of invulnerability during that sequence!  It's like a mini Ewecus-trap that lasts _just_ long enough to seriously mess you up...and it also tends to make me JUMP! and startle every time, since I was concentrating on the game and suddenly wh--my hand--no respo--  To have the control yanked out from under you while still pressing the buttons/mouse is aaaaaarrrrghhhh....That shouldn't happen unless you have awful lag!

I would say that I have died to hounds MANY times as Wolfgang because of this, but actually no...once or twice was enough.  After that happened and I also found out how jarring the being-stopped-to-shrink thing is in general, I really haven't played him much at all...

Anyway if that _annoying_ animation was taken out, Wolfgang MIGHT actually become a character I play sometimes.

Spoiler

Edit: There's actually a Winnie mod I used to use fairly often!  It comes with these pink Ewelo things, which spawn in little herds in the world even if nobody's actually playing as Winnie.  Her actual gameplay...she grows food SO fast you barely even know where to _store_ it in the spring, especially if you have advanced farms + rain, and tends to starve to death in the winter. 

It's also while playing as Winnie that I had possibly my funniest death ever...Death by Cotton Candy.  (The Ewelo drop that when they die.)  : P

...Notorious

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This is ideas for WOLFGANG Rework, sure you can totally pick Wigfrid over him... I guess but do keep in mind Wigfrid is also getting her OWN Rework eventually and being a Mighty Viking Warrior is only a Stage Art Performance act she took too far & lost most of who she really is for the sake of wanting to be a good stage actor.

It would be roughly the same as say some totally normal human being playing Joker in a Batman movie and then never being able to fully snap out of that role again..

And with questionable things like a playable character named Winnifred (Aka Winnie) who looks an awful lot Like Wigfrid being in Klei’s scrapped character concepts- A blonde headed farmer girl who is a vegetarian “Little Bo-Peep style” Its hard to say WHAT Wigfrid is actually like outside of the Viking Act.

Is she a vegetarian who got so caught up in her role of being a mighty Viking Warrior that she forgets that she actually HATES eating meat? 

My point is that Until both Wolfgang & Wigfrid receive their Reworks- It would be very unfair and unrealistic to compare the two.

 

Read again my post, Mike, I think you gone a bit out of the railways ...again.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

There is only ONE thing I want, and have _always_ wanted, for any potential Wolfgang rework:

MAKE THE SHRINKING ANIMATIONS NOT F###ING _STOP_ YOU!!!  Or at the very least, give us a few frames of invulnerability during that sequence!  It's like a mini Ewecus-trap that lasts _just_ long enough to seriously mess you up...and it also tends to make me JUMP! and startle every time, since I was concentrating on the game and suddenly wh--my hand--no respo--  To have the control yanked out from under you while still pressing the buttons/mouse is aaaaaarrrrghhhh....That shouldn't happen unless you have awful lag!

I would say that I have died to hounds MANY times as Wolfgang because of this, but actually no...once or twice was enough.  After that happened and I also found out how jarring the being-stopped-to-shrink thing is in general, I really haven't played him much at all...

Anyway if that _annoying_ animation was taken out, Wolfgang MIGHT actually become a character I play sometimes.

...Notorious

do you want to remove his only real downside? playing as wolfgang you must control the belly bar

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His only upside is he does more damage to varying degrees, and only while mighty. Wig has the carnivore/sweet food diet downside, but she does not have wimpy form, normal form, has 25% innate reduction, starts with helm,spear, 4 meat, and can craft helmets.

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Wolf damage = 1.9x-2x

Wolfgang's mighty damage is 1.25x-2x. 1.9x-2x assumes you're able to eat something during combat to keep you full every 20 seconds.

27 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

do you want to remove his only real downside? playing as wolfgang you must control the belly bar

Wolf's biggest downsides are wimpy form, and fast hunger drain in normal form.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

For me the key difference in why I favor Wig over Wolf even now, not to mention proposed nerfed version, is the 25% dmg resist and her ability to make right-out-of-the-bat cheap-yet-good armor and weapon (plus the constant 1.25x dmg modifier). For newbies/noobs, mediocre people at the game and people generally lagging and/or rubberbanding this character is a proverbial God-send - can clearly be seen in server-pickings. Obviously a mighty Wolfgang is mechanically superior, but the underline is how you must keep him mighty: by constantly eating a lot of food (or else you are back to default stats or worse yet, wimpy form). Sure food is easily obtainable in default WorldGen settings, but for most people it seems this constant food-run is a drag and prefer the leaser alternative between Wolf and Wig, yet more reliable even in face of adversity (occasional starving, no "deflating" animation that stunts you) - probably solely on the 3 key-aspects I've pointed.

I don't play current Wolf almost at all (Willow and Wendy co-main atm) for various reasons, starting with his personality and implied back-story (coming from an ex-communist country and its hardships of which West has no actual clues I loathe everything commie-related) and finishing with him being a food vacuum if one wants to take advantage of his pros (again coming from an ex-communist country and knowing what constant food shortage is, it affected my food-conferred value in general). Thus I don't really care if Wolf gets nerfed to the ground. But with what I've read here, I don't see the actual fun of proposed "rework": I don't need a character to carry some statues heads when Beefs can be partially tamed for this purpose, taking his speed value speaks for itself in eyes of player-bulk, etc. If anything, such a rework would make me personally cross-out Wolf definitively from character picks in future, as Wigfrid would appear in the mentioned mindset an even more attractive choice.

 

But here is 1 proposal from me for on-topic: make Wolfgang use Marble Suit, and carry heavy stuff at 1x speed independent of mighty form (aka make it a constant). Keep mighty form modifying the damage output, but don't affect speed reduction. If going for a Strong Man approach, make him physique-able constantly in using those items without speed penalty. That for me would make Wolf unique, and be lore-consistent as, you know, having additional muscle mass and showing for it. And you can even have rest of proposed nerfs, the fact alone I can have something unique in combat as Wolf would elevate him in my eyes above Wig stats at times.

You've brought up a lot of good points, and I can definitely see an argument for extending some of the strength based perks to normal form as well.

I do feel like being able to "hulk out" for utility purposes is something Wolfgang should have beyond just combat.

What do you think about adding a 1.25x damage modifier to normal form, and allowing him to have no slowdown from marble/piggyback as long as he isn't wimpy?  Wimpgang doesn't appear any stronger than normal survivors but normal form loses his sleeves.

This would reserve carrying heavy stuff at 1x (or realistically, 1.25x speed with a cane) as a mighty form exclusive utility.  Given how rarely you'd need to do it (and be able to use wormholes, and not craft a saddle) it seems pretty reasonable a trade-off.

25 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

There is only ONE thing I want, and have _always_ wanted, for any potential Wolfgang rework:

MAKE THE SHRINKING ANIMATIONS NOT F###ING _STOP_ YOU!!!  Or at the very least, give us a few frames of invulnerability during that sequence!  It's like a mini Ewecus-trap that lasts _just_ long enough to seriously mess you up...and it also tends to make me JUMP! and startle every time, since I was concentrating on the game and suddenly wh--my hand--no respo--  To have the control yanked out from under you while still pressing the buttons/mouse is aaaaaarrrrghhhh....That shouldn't happen unless you have awful lag!

I would say that I have died to hounds MANY times as Wolfgang because of this, but actually no...once or twice was enough.  After that happened and I also found out how jarring the being-stopped-to-shrink thing is in general, I really haven't played him much at all...

Anyway if that _annoying_ animation was taken out, Wolfgang MIGHT actually become a character I play sometimes.

  Reveal hidden contents

Edit: There's actually a Winnie mod I used to use fairly often!  It comes with these pink Ewelo things, which spawn in little herds in the world even if nobody's actually playing as Winnie.  Her actual gameplay...she grows food SO fast you barely even know where to _store_ it in the spring, especially if you have advanced farms + rain, and tends to starve to death in the winter. 

It's also while playing as Winnie that I had possibly my funniest death ever...Death by Cotton Candy.  (The Ewelo drop that when they die.)  : P

...Notorious

A lot of people find that mechanic frustrating, and it's certainly screwed me up.  People in the past have made the animation interruptible which would be a good quality of life change.

9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

do you want to remove his only real downside? playing as wolfgang you must control the belly bar

One of the differences between DS and DST is wolfgang isn't invulnerable while transforming, which could be used to dodge boss hits in DS.  It doesn't seem unreasonable if you reduce his overall strength and increase other weaknesses that you could remove a downside new Wolfgang players strongly dislike and veteran Wolfgang players have learned to work around.

I've been brainstorming other things that are done in game that strength would be useful for, and it occurred to me that rowing is another potential function where being strong would confer an advantage.  It should be relatively easy for me to double or even triple the force that mighty Wolfgang would impart when rowing which would provide Malbatross oar or better function from an ordinary oar and scale up from there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

do you want to remove his only real downside? playing as wolfgang you must control the belly bar

I agree , as annoying as it is to be chased by a mob and have him stop to whine about his tummy. It's one of his few down sides and is not too hard to control. The worst is being in the caves with nightmare cycle cave monkeys hot on your trail and he stops to complain about his belly. Best strategy for Wolf is to stay in wimpy form most of the time and keep health topped off. Get in mighty or at least normal form when you have to fight something. I hope they dont get too crazy with his rework. I would be ok if they made sanity a little tougher around monsters or something .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mean take it out entirely so he has no downsides, I mean...make it less ANNOYING.  Hound attacks do not come an exact number of days apart but rather in a range, and they don't always happen at the same TIME of day.  So to always be full enough so I don't have to worry about the shrinking at _just_ the right time isn't properly scheduleable.  I can't be like "Ah, it's been five days and it's nighttime, better feed up!"

Keep him mighty all the time?  HA HA HA HA HA oh, I'm so jealous of people who say that's no problem at all, what's wrong with you noob.  He's a food-sink. The very first time I ACTUALLY died of starving instead of something else, was while playing as Wolfgang in the winter.  Thing is, see, I knew that he was "stronger on a full stomach", but I didn't know he ALSO had a faster hunger drain.  So...

Wigfrid is still just as strong while starving and doesn't auto-stun herself at (possibly) the worst times, just saying...

Wolfgang's shrinking animations and how he can STILL BE _HIT_ DURING IT (I emphasise this because for pete's sake, there were _Atari_ games that gave you immunity frames at times like that!  You know, like from the _arcade_ era?  Coin-vaccuums?  PRE Nintendo-Hard?) is SO absolutely obnoxious to me, it is a flat-out dealbreaker.  I will absolutely never play as him agan if this MAJOR, huge, _punishing_ for something you didn't actually do all that wrong, flaw isn't taken out or mitigated.  I've always seen that as THE thing that scares me away from playing him.

What downside would he still have?  Well his faster hunger drain, of course!  And maybe another one that the devs could think of, that doesn't involve violently yanking the control away from the player suddenly?  I dunno, I'm not a dev...but I'm sure they could think of _something_.  Maybe relating to the phobias thing.

Warly?  Warly's hunger-related downside is also annoying and babysitty as all hell, but at least he doesn't STOP when complaining at you that his food isn't good enough...(I'm...not a fan of ANY gameplay mechanic you have to constantly keep on top of, in little bits, here and there, every few minutes. I'd very much rather "Here, here's a BIG thing that'll keep you okay for a long while before the next time there's another _big_ problem, now leave me alone and let me play!")

Hound attacks happen when they happen and you can't schedule properly around it like with just not..._going_ to the sandstorm during the summer until you have your goggles, or running away as soon as you see your hunt spawned a Ewecus.  (If you're playing DST with the _T_ part, then yes, Ewecuses are doable.  Somebody else can hit it to distract it as you free yourself.  If you play alone as I do, however, they're an instant death-sentence.)  It's just possible run and _world_-ending at any time, plus jarring.

I won't be looking at any more responses to (my part of) this thread, however, as I KNOW how incredibly forking bad of a player I am.  I don't need to _keep_ hearing it.  Just..make Wolfgang...not...ANNOYING.

...Notorious

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Read again my post, Mike, I think you gone a bit out of the railways ...again.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Spoiler

I’m playing completely alone and do not actually NEED a Klaus sack- DST is NOT scale downward to accommodate itself for less players. Bosses in DST have ridiculously more HP than their Single Player Counter parts, which I am assuming goes by completely unimportant to being patched due to #Mods.

The way people seem hell bent on defining themselves as Elitests Just because you kill some totally optional Boss every Winter Season just leaves me feeling quite disgusted.

Just because I don’t fight optional bosses that are geared towards bringing a TEAM to fight my opinions about the game become discredited because I’m not engaging in completely optional Multi-Person focused content? 

Hey maybe here’s a thought, Since DST can still ACTUALLY be played alone maybe make the game more accessible to those playing Alone? I might actually engage in those totally optional Boss fights if I didn’t feel Punished for not bringing a team to quickly dispose of them.

When you can Actually give me a legit answer as to why Dragonfly has 20,000 extra HP compared to her single player version.. then and only then might I start answering the questions you ask me.

The way I see it- when I host a Server I have the choices of hosting my biomes as Classic or hosting them as TOGETHER, So why can’t I choose if I want my bosses geared towards being fightable with 1-2 players with less hp, as opposed to having a lot more HP when 6 people are playing?

 

And by the way do you play using a console controller at all bro? I’m not ashamed at all to admit that just DRIVING a Boat as a Solo player in DST can be considered an Achievement in its own right.

Ahem Anyway, now that that rant is out of the Way... Wolfgang is actually mighty but he is also plagued with a Myriad of Phobias.

Wigfrid being a mighty Viking Warrior However... is only a Stage performance act. And it should show in her Rework if only in brief hints.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes!  THANK you, on the people who are elitist and mean because they can kill optional bosses and you can't/don't.  The higher boss HP?  Yeah one of the VERY first mods I started using regularly (after the one that got me into using mods at all in the first place, "Willow Unnerfed") is called something like "Boss HP Adjust". It...gasp!  scales the HP of the bosses according to how many people are on the server!, only going to the standard DST amount when there's like at least 4, and using the singleplayer stats _when you're playing alone_.  I hardly ever bother with bosses unless I have to, but Willow's killing off the Bearger (when he suddenly went "I HATE YOU!!!" with almost no warning) with her traps recently-ish might not've happened without that mod.  He might have lived past ALL the traps to then wreck the camp, including stuff I can't get back easily such as my Winter's Feast tree, if he had had his double HP.  

That's why this is an example of a mod that SHOULDN'T be in only mod form.  It should be a basic quality-of-life improvement--and if you still want it at the DST settings, there's always the world options at the beginning.

As for Wigfrid, I've always kinda half-jokingly said/thought that she's _actually_ like, I dunno, some random housewife from Long Island or something who just SNAPPED one day.  What that would mean in terms of gameplay I dunno, but...

...Notorious

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

...Notorious

Off Topic- Thanks for backing me up on this Oh & speaking of Achievements- Those Of you who seem to want to show off your boss fighting Elitism- may actually find these Stats interesting.

I shouldn’t have to say or show you ANYTHING Else.

———————————

Back on Topic- This may be an unpopular opinion but maybe remove “wimpy” Wolfgang altogether? He should be Average.. or Mighty, do We even need super skinny wimpy Wolfgang like at all?? I feel like being skinny and wimpy was their way of giving Wolfgang a Downside for not eating food and staying Mighty.. but realistically shouldn’t his quote “Plagued by a Myriad of Phobias” be his ultimate downside?

6457EA5E-F3B1-41DA-BC1B-C110CAC15F7B.jpeg

DE4C1B65-943E-419A-8E15-4972ECB458CD.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

I don't mean take it out entirely so he has no downsides, I mean...make it less ANNOYING.  Hound attacks do not come an exact number of days apart but rather in a range, and they don't always happen at the same TIME of day.  So to always be full enough so I don't have to worry about the shrinking at _just_ the right time isn't properly scheduleable.  I can't be like "Ah, it's been five days and it's nighttime, better feed up!"

Keep him mighty all the time?  HA HA HA HA HA oh, I'm so jealous of people who say that's no problem at all, what's wrong with you noob.  He's a food-sink. The very first time I ACTUALLY died of starving instead of something else, was while playing as Wolfgang in the winter.  Thing is, see, I knew that he was "stronger on a full stomach", but I didn't know he ALSO had a faster hunger drain.  So...

Wigfrid is still just as strong while starving and doesn't auto-stun herself at (possibly) the worst times, just saying...

Wolfgang's shrinking animations and how he can STILL BE _HIT_ DURING IT (I emphasise this because for pete's sake, there were _Atari_ games that gave you immunity frames at times like that!  You know, like from the _arcade_ era?  Coin-vaccuums?  PRE Nintendo-Hard?) is SO absolutely obnoxious to me, it is a flat-out dealbreaker.  I will absolutely never play as him agan if this MAJOR, huge, _punishing_ for something you didn't actually do all that wrong, flaw isn't taken out or mitigated.  I've always seen that as THE thing that scares me away from playing him.

What downside would he still have?  Well his faster hunger drain, of course!  And maybe another one that the devs could think of, that doesn't involve violently yanking the control away from the player suddenly?  I dunno, I'm not a dev...but I'm sure they could think of _something_.  Maybe relating to the phobias thing.

Warly?  Warly's hunger-related downside is also annoying and babysitty as all hell, but at least he doesn't STOP when complaining at you that his food isn't good enough...(I'm...not a fan of ANY gameplay mechanic you have to constantly keep on top of, in little bits, here and there, every few minutes. I'd very much rather "Here, here's a BIG thing that'll keep you okay for a long while before the next time there's another _big_ problem, now leave me alone and let me play!")

Hound attacks happen when they happen and you can't schedule properly around it like with just not..._going_ to the sandstorm during the summer until you have your goggles, or running away as soon as you see your hunt spawned a Ewecus.  (If you're playing DST with the _T_ part, then yes, Ewecuses are doable.  Somebody else can hit it to distract it as you free yourself.  If you play alone as I do, however, they're an instant death-sentence.)  It's just possible run and _world_-ending at any time, plus jarring.

I won't be looking at any more responses to (my part of) this thread, however, as I KNOW how incredibly forking bad of a player I am.  I don't need to _keep_ hearing it.  Just..make Wolfgang...not...ANNOYING.

...Notorious

I'm not sure if you can actually see my posts, but most Wolfgang players do keep him mighty all the time due to the speed boost and how easy it is to have plentiful amounts of food.

The thing about playing perma-mighty vanilla Wolfgang though is you're paying a premium for his strength and speed so you should use it aggressively.  If you're paying the hunger to be strong enough to 1 shot spiders, you should be able to leverage that into a large pile of resources.  Passive food production (bunny farms, bee boxes) can supplement active food production and a belt of hunger reduces Wolf's max hunger to 1.8x normal.

Given that I know you have a more relaxed, nomad playstyle I can see why you wouldn't enjoy that sort of aggressive playstyle.

Fun fact: As far as ewecuses, if you have a pigman follower they'll actually free you from the snot which makes Ewecus possible solo.

I'm going to add in being able to cancel his animations though, they probably cost more fun than they're worth.  If other things need to be scaled back I'd prefer a more streamlined design.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And if he does turn out to be a character who loses sanity quickly, those who are all like "Being insane is AWESOME in Don't Starve and you should be nuts as much as possible!" would _love_ it!  (Me, I'm kind of fond of only being attacked SOMEtimes.  I also like colours and a lack of creepy whispers in my ears.  Yes, there are mods to take out those exact things but if I'm in a state that could cause me to get hit at any moment, I wouldn't want to not KNOW...)

Of course, with all this talk about "it's so much easier for those who play as groups to defeat these DST bosses, what with their higher health!" there are, of course, all the people who go around _soloing_ the bosses.  Sometimes in worlds where there was never anybody else, so they would've had to do all the prep work themselves too.

That, I'll give credit to.  Although, if those stats are anything to go by...it seems that in actuality, the people who can solo bosses are in the EXTREME minority!  This forum just happens to attract a higher concentration of that type than there actually are in the gameplaying public, I guess.

Now, if only people who play the survival sandbox game AS a survival sandbox game instead of an FPS could be counted as even _existing_ as gamers, too...

Anyway Wolfgang loses sanity faster/to more things I could get behind, more than the shrink-stopping.  At least THAT wouldn't make you feel like you rubberbanded or something.

...Notorious

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Toros said:

It's not a secret that I'm a Wolfgang main since he was implemented in Don't Starve, but for the past couple years I've been using a mod I wrote that nerfed his stats and speed boost to bring him more in line with what I consider balanced survivors.  I don't think his kit has room to add fun and interesting perks unless the free stats are taken away.

So I'm starting a thread to hopefully inspire some of you to brainstorm some fun and interesting perks that he could have assuming his stats are cut down to a reasonable level.

My plan is that I'm going to propose a heavily nerfed Wolfgang as a base that we can brainstorm some fun perks to add to since just adding perks given his current mechanical strength is absurd.

To me, Wolfgang's damage while mighty is his primary advantage (especially for solo players who want to fight raid bosses) and I'm reluctant to reduce it since being good at fighting bosses has been such a core part of his identity.

What I've been playing with and have been enjoying are the following changes:

Edited as I've implemented features based on suggestions and my own brainstorming

200 max hp in normal + mighty form (higher than average health but gives Wigfrid the defensive advantage)

150 max sanity with a 1.3x sanity loss modifier (down from 200 and 1.1x) - this also puts him more on par with Wigfrid and Willow's sanity

No speed boost - I expect this to be controversial but speed is notoriously difficult to balance and it means you don't have to relearn kiting patterns to play Wolfgang (or the annoyance of your speed changing during combat which can easily cause you to take extra hits).  I think it would be more fun to see his power in other areas.

Normal form has a 1.25x damage multiplier (same as Wigfrid) - Normal form Wolfgang doesn't have much going for him, this small damage boost makes him above average fighting even without going mighty.

Transform animation can be cancelled by moving - This is a big issue for a lot of people, and I don't think anyone enjoys it, so might as well remove it.

I think this forms a solid base that we could add interesting perks and downsides to make playing Wolfgang more fun.

I've been playing around lately with a couple minor perks.

Ignores marble + piggyback slowdown while not wimpy - This is to give unloved items an extra bonus in his hands, and fits with him being strong.  Also gives normal Wolfgang some minor perks.

Can equip heavy objects on his back like a backpack and move at normal speed (can also use hand slot) while mighty - This effectively lets Wolfgang compete with Beefalo as a pack mule as with a cane he can move suspicious marble much, much faster as well as have an easier time setting up sculpture walls and decoration.  Normal Wolfgang can carry heavy items the usual way but faster (0.45x speed instead of 0.15x speed)

Greatly improved rowing while mighty - Oars aren't very good for getting around on a boat, but rowing is very much an activity where strength matters.  Sails are much faster for less work as a player, but this lets Wolfgang make boats much more maneuverable and makes short trips viable even without a sail if you're willing to spend food to stay mighty.

You might be thinking "these perks are cool but they aren't very useful" and I'd agree.  That was the point.  Wolfgang will always be valuable for his damage and I wanted him to have interesting things going on that didn't involve fighting or encroach on other characters.  That they both logically play into his "strongman" motif makes sense to me.

If we can come up with some cool ideas (within my coding abilities) I'd like to implement them so we could actually test them.

Are you going to add anything in the usual way Don't starve? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So to lay it all out there:

Currently wolfgang had the following drawbacks:

-loses hunger fast

-gets stunned when he drops in hunger at certain intervals

-is "scared" (not really a detriment?)

His perks:

-good damage output in a conditional state

-good speed in that state, and higher base stats too

And that's about it. So I'm all for the perk of carrying heavy chest items without movement speed lowering. I'd suggest making his strength help him with resource gathering, since as the strong man, I imagine that's exactly how he would be able to contribute in the canon lore, in a team with Wigfrids and Maxwells. Maybe the "green thumb" thing could make him able to just pluck twigs and grass tufts like the way you can pluck flowers?

I agree with the opinion that his "powering down" animation shouldn't leave you vulnerable, or at least not AS vulnerable. At least he should give a notice just before he powers down, so you can eat something to delay it.

I suggest making it so his hunger lowers faster only when he's doing certain actions that would eat metabolism. Like, only when he's in mighty form, or when he's carrying heavy stuff. I also reiterate that he should break items quicker, but also break through the rocks/trees etc faster, so he'd net a lower yield than max or others, but he could do the job fast, and as long as he has twiggy trees and boulders, he can keep his stock up with tool building. Maybe make this effect only active when in mighty form, to give it an extra use, so players who can maintain mighty form will run their tools durability out quicker, but be able to take advantage of the faster speed of resource gathering. Personally, I usually find myself using lower durability tools trying to break tools I have enough of to open inventory space anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

as an ex wolfgang main i agree, i hate the transform animation.

in the other hand i think wolfgang will get a downside involving shadow creatures, I don't know maybe the shadow creatures will do extra dmg to wolfgang, or maybe spawn faster.

edit: I would love to be able to have more inventory slots when mighty

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ispin69 said:

I would rather klei leave wolfgang alone. But I know they will destroy him. Oh will, time to be a wigfrid main.

Well, it is kinda necessary for him to have existent downsides. Give them a chance, I'm sure they'll be able to come up with good abilities and challenging downsides to spice him up more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ispin69 said:

I would rather klei leave wolfgang alone. But I know they will destroy him. Oh will, time to be a wigfrid main.

while I myself don't really like the direction that the reworks are headed, I feel liking looking forward to a character being changed is the best course of action. After all, it's something new. At worst, wolfgang (or any character, really) will be a novelty that lasts for a few days. At best, main material.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Off Topic- Thanks for backing me up on this Oh & speaking of Achievements- Those Of you who seem to want to show off your boss fighting Elitism- may actually find these Stats interesting.

I shouldn’t have to say or show you ANYTHING Else.

———————————

Back on Topic- This may be an unpopular opinion but maybe remove “wimpy” Wolfgang altogether? He should be Average.. or Mighty, do We even need super skinny wimpy Wolfgang like at all?? I feel like being skinny and wimpy was their way of giving Wolfgang a Downside for not eating food and staying Mighty.. but realistically shouldn’t his quote “Plagued by a Myriad of Phobias” be his ultimate downside?

6457EA5E-F3B1-41DA-BC1B-C110CAC15F7B.jpeg

DE4C1B65-943E-419A-8E15-4972ECB458CD.jpeg

Hmm the ancient guardian is easy, play as WX, and you can rush the ruins with ease, even me as modded a character who cannot gain any sanity down there and has only 125 HP, I was able to get some ruins loot and get out.. alive I'm sure you could do it with all the gears you'd find down there

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont know ehy people dont enjoy the transformation frames, is the only thing makes my heart beat playing this imb4 character.

If you get hit changing your form is your fault, the same that if you go far with warly with no cocked food

Ds is another game and other playstyle so the invencibility frames where cool

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Toros said:

I do feel like being able to "hulk out" for utility purposes is something Wolfgang should have beyond just combat.

What do you think about adding a 1.25x damage modifier to normal form, and allowing him to have no slowdown from marble/piggyback as long as he isn't wimpy?  Wimpgang doesn't appear any stronger than normal survivors but normal form loses his sleeves.

This would reserve carrying heavy stuff at 1x (or realistically, 1.25x speed with a cane) as a mighty form exclusive utility.  Given how rarely you'd need to do it (and be able to use wormholes, and not craft a saddle) it seems pretty reasonable a trade-off.

Yes, that would definitely be a bon, the "1.25x damage modifier to normal form".

Expanding a bit upon the above, I would envision next stats for a so-and-so comprehensive Wolfgang rework that makes him attractive to play/future pub runs in my eyes:
 

Quote

 

Wimpy Form:

HP: 150
Hunger (total): 200; Form manifestation: 0-70; Hunger loss modifier: 0.8x
Sanity: 150; Sanity loss modifier: 1.3x (constant)
Speed: 1x (constant)
Wearing Marble Armor, Piggyback speed modifier: 0.75x
Carry heavy objects (Boulders, Sculptures, etc) speed modifier: 0.15x
Damage modifier: 0.75x


Regular Form:

HP: 200
Hunger (total): 200; Form manifestation: 70-150; Hunger loss modifier: 1x
Sanity: 150; Sanity loss modifier: 1.3x (constant)
Speed: 1x (constant)
Wearing Marble Armor, Piggyback speed modifier: 1x
Carry heavy objects (Boulders, Sculptures, etc) speed modifier: 0.45x
Damage modifier: 1.25x


Mighty Form:

HP: 250
Hunger (total): 200; Form manifestation: 150-200; Hunger loss modifier: 2x
Sanity: 150; Sanity loss modifier: 1.3x (constant)
Speed: 1x (constant)
Wearing Marble Armor, Piggyback speed modifier: 1x
Carry heavy objects (Boulders, Sculptures, etc) speed modifier: 0.45x - but when Mighty, can also equip objects in hand slot, allowing use of Walking Cane/Lazy Explorer and further eating to maintain Mighty form
Damage modifier: 2x


Bonus: transformation in-between forms can be canceled by moving (any direction).


Additionally, in relation to his background/lore:

* "military man"/"troupe"/"spirit of camaraderie" perk: provides a small sanity bonus to players fighting alongside;
* "farm life" perk: gets +1 meat (perhaps some other bon) from killing farm-like animals (Beefalos, Volt Goats);
* "strong hand-on-deck" perk: improved rowing while mighty.

 

 

Ofc is only a sketch from a very-very casual Wolfgang player. Still I consider it sufficiently newbie/noob-friendly to please player-base bulk - adds cons but also pros for character and team, and a broader utility imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Yes, that would definitely be a bon, the "1.25x damage modifier to normal form".

Expanding a bit upon the above, I would envision next stats for a so-and-so comprehensive Wolfgang rework that makes him attractive to play/future pub runs in my eyes:
 

 

Ofc is only a sketch from a very-very casual Wolfgang player. Still I consider it sufficiently newbie/noob-friendly to please player-base bulk - adds cons but also pros for character and team, and a broader utility imo.

You and I have a similar vision, and I actually have a playable mod that implements most of these changes.  Mighty version is a little better, wimpy version is a little more punishing.  Our normal forms are identical.  No sanity aura while fighting or additional loot, but it is a WIP.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1205119975

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.

×
  • Create New...