Klei pls fix this rework

[Booklover]

All I want is to remove the penalty because it's just extra and also give Abby back her ultra-aggressive mode without her killing Glommer, Tamed Beefalos or followers. I actually had trouble making Abigail fight BEES on Riled Up mode as she won't attack them until Wendy attacks them.

Klei, thank you for fixing the follower thing but in doing so, you nerfed Abigail down further since instead of engaging everything she sees, now sometimes she needs Wendy to smack them first which was basically Soothe mode. Please give back the old aggressive mode but y'know, less jealous of other friends this time?

Another thing is Elixirs. I am actually fine with them not stackable. It encourages a sorta form-changer playstyle where you plan out the elixirs you want to defeat an enemy and constantly switch them throughout the fight by applying the elixirs to Abigail's Flower. Heck, sometimes you don't even need any other elixir than Spectral Cure-All as this drug can actually allow Abigail to outheal some mob's damage.

4 hours ago, Omlett said:

About Abi's damage being tied to Wendy's health...

I don't think the point was to enable a glass cannon "let's stand back with 1 hp and watch a super-strong Abigail deal with them" kind of playstyle, even though challenge-seeker players probably would have enjoyed that. I think they actually wanted to encourage new and inexperienced players to join the fray and fight alongside their sister without worries of getting hurt, because even if that happens Abigail becomes stronger and helps finishing the battle. Of course it doesn't stop experienced players from trying to reach higher damage for Abi by staying deliberately at low HP, but I don't think that was the point. That's why I don't mind that this mechanic is not as strong as we thought it would be.

Yes I think this is the most likely thinking for them however one thing they did forgot was that the DST community thrives off of ¡!DAMAGE!¡ and !¡WAR¡! and so the community would most definitely try to maximize the amount of damage Abigail can do.

The principle of this mechanic relies on tanking beside Abigail. You start at full hp and Abigail starts at the lowest damage. As you continue to fight, soon Wendy will get hit some way or another. Abigail then slowly starts ramping up her damage until Wendy decides to stop fighting and retreat somewhere, watching Abigail fight while Wendy heals herself/sits there. Now, without the hp scaling, the survivor's side would lose alot of dps when Wendy leaves (despite her 25% loss of damage) and the fight would take longer. If Wendy retreats from the fight, it means she's low and Abigail's damage is now higher, allowing Abigail to carry the fight harder. If Wendy decides to heal, Abigail then tries her best to deal as much damage to the enemies until her sister comes back.

It's not a "Wtf is this we need to almost die to get gud damgae?" but rather "Phew atleast I have a safety net in the form of Abigail when I'm low". The DST community focuses way too much on "potential damage" that they simply ignore all else.

[Sweaper]

39 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Abigail still dies in 1 hit if I hit her by accident while fighting, reseting her health from 600 back down to 150.. and it removes any potion effects I had applied to her.

Good lord I feel bad for console players having to face the enemy to attack.

[Hypersomnia]

1 hour ago, QuartzBeam said:

I too love the HP-based damage scaling (again, in concept more so than in execution). However, unless I'm misunderstanding something, what you're describing is already the case.

Abigail's bonus damage is a quadratic function of the % of health Wendy is missing. Going from 150 hp to 112.5 hp will only raise Abigail's DPS by a measly 2.3 points. But going from 15 HP to 1 HP, will raise her DPS by a whopping 7 points. In other words, most of her bonus damage is "squeezed" into the lower end of Wendy's health pool.

You have to lose half your health for the bonus DPS to get 25% of the potential bonus DPS and that only brings Abigail up to the same AoE DPS she had during dusks before the rework. (Admittedly, the shield she has now make this comparison less than fair, but the shield is not a panacea.)

And even with Night Armor, no one's gonna drop to single-digit HP to get those last 5 points of DPS. Anything that warrants using Night Armor can 1- or 2-shot you if all you have are 10 hp (especially with crowds, which are Abigail's specialty) and anything that doesn't probably won't be an issue without those last 5 points.

Klei could keep the risk-reward nature of this perk intact, while still making it more widely usable if only they made the scaling linear. This way risk averse players could enjoy +10 dps by dropping to a "perfectly safe" 112.5 HP, more confident ones could drop to 75 HP for +20 DPS and the most courageous of all could easily drop to around 37.5 HP for +30 DPS. And on the off chance that something beats the manure out of you, Abigail can get up to 10 more "emergency" DPS to save the day.

Thanks for the clarification. What I meant to convey is that it would be nice if the damage increase became higher than it currently is, although specifically at the lower levels of HP. I like your idea for modifying the scaling, though.

1 hour ago, QuartzBeam said:

I believe Ectoherbology is meant to be a toolbox from which the players must choose the right tool for each job, which is why they do not stack. Yes, technically, all the elixirs aside from Vigor Mortis do the same thing: they boost Abigail's survivability. However, each elixir has a different crafting cost and boosts Abigail's survivability in a different manner, which sets it apart from the other elixirs. For example:

• the defense and vengeance elixirs are not reliant on Wendy having low health to be effective, whereas the attack elixir is. Conversely, the attack elixir works when fighting a few enemies or a single enemy, whereas the defense and vengeance elixirs do not.
• defense potion is worse than the vengeance one in effectiveness, but it costs less than half as many resources to craft. it also costs way less than the fast regen potion and lasts 4 times as long as it does

Don't get me wrong, I understand why people find the elixirs underwhelming and I generally agree with that notion myself, but I think the elixirs are a very solid piece of game design. Sure, some of the numbers need to be tweaked upwards (in conjunction with the aforementioned linear damage scaling), but I'm not sure Mourning Glories (or the other ingredients, barring Living Logs) are rare enough to warrant a lot of these huge buffs I keep seeing people suggest (like making the elixirs last half a day).

At best, perhaps another elixir could be thrown in that is geared  towards 1 vs. 1 combat? (perhaps giving Abigail some innate armor a la Wigfrid and maybe a little something extra)

I'll admit (or perhaps I already did) that I wasn't sure what to make of this mechanic specifically, but yours is a solid assessment. 

[bruhmoment23]

In the end its up to devs. Most likely they will change the defense elixir's mechanic, not sure about the hp penalty, but time will tell. Keep an eye out on Game Updates regarding small changes and bug fixes.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Another Thing- People need to stop complaining about the Sisturn Sanity Aurora. It’s enough to negate Night time Sanity drain all together.. and all you need to achieve this is 3 Cutstone, 3 Wooden planks, 1 ashes, and 4 Flower Petals.

The TL:DR it’s not as Inferior to Wendy’s old Sanity Station as some people are making it out to be.. the old way actually required ALOT more work to accomplish creating and also probably could of been consider a questionable exploit.

It is drastically inferior to Wendy's old sanity station.  Yes the old sanity station required bee queen crown, but that's okay, it was an end game perfect sanity station.  You could quickly cap out your sanity to max or 0.  It wasn't just mitigating night time sanity loss.

3 hours ago, Booklover said:

Yes I think this is the most likely thinking for them however one thing they did forgot was that the DST community thrives off of ¡!DAMAGE!¡ and !¡WAR¡! and so the community would most definitely try to maximize the amount of damage Abigail can do.

The principle of this mechanic relies on tanking beside Abigail. You start at full hp and Abigail starts at the lowest damage. As you continue to fight, soon Wendy will get hit some way or another. Abigail then slowly starts ramping up her damage until Wendy decides to stop fighting and retreat somewhere, watching Abigail fight while Wendy heals herself/sits there. Now, without the hp scaling, the survivor's side would lose alot of dps when Wendy leaves (despite her 25% loss of damage) and the fight would take longer. If Wendy retreats from the fight, it means she's low and Abigail's damage is now higher, allowing Abigail to carry the fight harder. If Wendy decides to heal, Abigail then tries her best to deal as much damage to the enemies until her sister comes back.

It's not a "Wtf is this we need to almost die to get gud damgae?" but rather "Phew atleast I have a safety net in the form of Abigail when I'm low". The DST community focuses way too much on "potential damage" that they simply ignore all else.

Principle and execution are not always the same.  In this case I think Klei invisioned what you suggest - and I don't think anyone is doubting that - but the results don't match.  Consider that Abi's goal is to take on many mobs in a way no player can - which means Wendy is not part of that fight.  You don't want to distract aggro during a frog rain or while clearing spider dens.  During these times Wendy stays out of it.  The only time she should join the fight is with Abi tanking anyway - I mean look at Abi - she has 600 health and most of her potions focus on her defense...  why would Wendy ever be the one to take aggro?

Also consider - why would Wendy be fighting anyway?  She gets a 25% damage penalty.  Its a bit senseless to try to fight with Wendy when eating some red caps boosts Abi better than joining in the fight.

The results don't match the vision which means they need to be looked at again.  Hence these threads.

So instead of the envisioned "Wendy and Abi fight together, if wendy takes too much damage abi gets more damage to save her sister" the result is "Abi damage is crap so Wendy needs to poison herself."

If they want Wendy to fight with Abi, and have Abi "Help Wendy more" if Wendy gets hit, they really need to redesign this.  Perhaps take away Wendy's damage penalty so she can contribute more meaningful damage.  Maybe also track WHO hit Wendy and give Abi a damage bonus against THAT mob.  Maybe let Abi give Wendy some of her ghost HP to heal Wendy during the fight.

Denying what players are experiencing just because it wasn't "the vision" doesn't change what is happening...

[Mike23Ua]

The changes should be that if I’m supposed to be helping Abigail in Battle I shouldn’t have to worry about Hitting her in 1 hit and reseting her stats and potions like she just died...

this should no longer even be a THING considering I can Summon & Unsummon her from her Flower at my own Command.

[Booklover]

51 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The changes should be that if I’m supposed to be helping Abigail in Battle I shouldn’t have to worry about Hitting her in 1 hit and reseting her stats and potions like she just died...

this should no longer even be a THING considering I can Summon & Unsummon her from her Flower at my own Command.

That's the console problem with every mob. They'll have to completely rework the fighting mechanics I think for that. Probably gonna take around a few months to a year considering how consoles are somewhat behind PC.

Another thing is some people wanting Abigail to take Player damage instead of Mob damage which is good and all but if you do that then Abigail would be able to tank Deerclops no problem with a Spectral Cure-All since Abigail can reliably heal pretty much almost all of Deerclops' damage, essentially giving her pseudo-tankiness and removing one of Wendy's weaknesses which were bosses.

[ShyRo-Zyerenzy]

3 hours ago, Booklover said:

That's the console problem with every mob. They'll have to completely rework the fighting mechanics I think for that. Probably gonna take around a few months to a year considering how consoles are somewhat behind PC.

Another thing is some people wanting Abigail to take Player damage instead of Mob damage which is good and all but if you do that then Abigail would be able to tank Deerclops no problem with a Spectral Cure-All since Abigail can reliably heal pretty much almost all of Deerclops' damage, essentially giving her pseudo-tankiness and removing one of Wendy's weaknesses which were bosses.

You could instant summon her multiple times fully healed and not waiting for lvl stages, specially vs bee queen, but if she dies you are punished harder for it. getting mourning glory also consumes more time than before. i think its fair. it has to be good. or improve it a lot for hordes of splumonkeys. the effect of the potions need to be increased instead of just selecting one every time for every mob. ( heal , and vigor if you count the old targeting ) . also is harder to get her old dmg, which means she takes longer killing but survives more ( shield ) 
it's fair to get something new in exchange , its all about keeping abigail alive, or improve her damage aoe niche.

pd: you can tank deerclops with any character with a fire pit at your side and kill it too. but yes abigail is broken op rite. like the other players believing targeting a butterfly was broken too. it's about the targeting that made easier with increased range to get aggro more quickly in koelefants or mactusk, or even normal monkeys ( any running enemy )
by the time you waste keeping her alive is better do to the dps yourself. maybe it has some utility for a team if they lack the armor but thats rare, you won't be really caring that much since bosses isn't her niche and dodging is already easy, you are just wasting the potions instead of using them vs a lot of enemies or medium ones that hit hard, like lots of spiders warriors,pigs,splumonkeys, bishops,rocks , worms.

[Booklover]

1 hour ago, ShyRo-Zyerenzy said:

pd: you can tank deerclops with any character with a fire pit at your side and kill it too. but yes abigail is broken op rite. like the other players believing targeting a butterfly was broken too. it's about the targeting that made easier with increased range to get aggro more quickly in koelefants or mactusk, or even normal monkeys ( any running enemy )
by the time you waste keeping her alive is better do to the dps yourself. maybe it has some utility for a team if they lack the armor but thats rare, you won't be really caring that much since bosses isn't her niche and dodging is already easy, you are just wasting the potions instead of using them vs a lot of enemies or medium ones that hit hard, like lots of spiders warriors,pigs,splumonkeys, bishops,rocks , worms.

The thing is, fighting bosses has always been Wendy's weakness since Abigail dies in pretty much the first 5 seconds you meet the boss. Thus you rely entirely on Wendy and her 25% less damage modifier to kill bosses unless you go ham and spam Abigails. Tanking Deerclops would take much longer and more resources thus making this one of Wendy's weaknesses.

Now, giving Abigail the status of "player" when she gets hit by mobs will reduce or halve certain attacks' damage such as bosses' attacks and Rook's ram thus increasing her survivability and actually giving her a chance when tanking against these mobs with healing buffs. This, combined with Wendy tanking next to Abigail as well, can nullify Wendy's weakness of having problems dealing with bosses and might even turn the weakness into a pro of Wendy's and that completely changes character concept.

Right now, Abigail vs Bosses is still a joke. She isn't OP in that regard but if you give her the "player" status, which Klei may never do, you can turn Wendy into one of the best boss killers, shooting her up from one of the worst boss killers to standing on a podium next to Wolfgang and Wickerbottom. Plus, it isn't even wasting time or potions since you can apply Spectral Cure-All right before the fight and get 15 seconds of Abigail tanking without cons and Wendy can join right in too. In fact, Wendy is recommended to join in as she'll take damage as she tanks and that will boost Abigail's damage further.

[ShyRo-Zyerenzy]

2 hours ago, Booklover said:

The thing is, fighting bosses has always been Wendy's weakness since Abigail dies in pretty much the first 5 seconds you meet the boss. Thus you rely entirely on Wendy and her 25% less damage modifier to kill bosses unless you go ham and spam Abigails. Tanking Deerclops would take much longer and more resources thus making this one of Wendy's weaknesses.

Now, giving Abigail the status of "player" when she gets hit by mobs will reduce or halve certain attacks' damage such as bosses' attacks and Rook's ram thus increasing her survivability and actually giving her a chance when tanking against these mobs with healing buffs. This, combined with Wendy tanking next to Abigail as well, can nullify Wendy's weakness of having problems dealing with bosses and might even turn the weakness into a pro of Wendy's and that completely changes character concept.

Right now, Abigail vs Bosses is still a joke. She isn't OP in that regard but if you give her the "player" status, which Klei may never do, you can turn Wendy into one of the best boss killers, shooting her up from one of the worst boss killers to standing on a podium next to Wolfgang and Wickerbottom. Plus, it isn't even wasting time or potions since you can apply Spectral Cure-All right before the fight and get 15 seconds of Abigail tanking without cons and Wendy can join right in too. In fact, Wendy is recommended to join in as she'll take damage as she tanks and that will boost Abigail's damage further.

boss killer ... oh god.. imagine being dependent on a abigail for all bosses.. that's just an scary though  what even.... it's unfair to get the same night dmg being at high risk with it going half the moment she gets more than one enemy, its only high vs 1. /pigs/bees/ beefalos/bunnies/monkeys, dmg cap is important so they die without them running away and taking more time. no dmg penalty, she never had that penalty vs multiple enemies, i said its either or we can keep the dmg and improve the bad potions because right now it's only worth using one and most of them are about survival(3). if the potions are kept this way, there's never a window to use said defense potion, her default shield is enough. 
isn't walking in water a new concept for woodie too? :s by that logic no character can't change too much to bring something new that didn't do before. 
i already made use of her taunt/tank in ruins bringing more flowers which was easier ( not vs rooks , monkeys and bishops ), now i have to farm mourning glories, if i make her tank, and heal her and i FARM the mourning glories i want to be rewarded for it, i lost the cycling( no one likes to wait, forces you to heal her ), it makes sense that keeping her alive needs to be rewarded. sure , my idea was focused for small/medium mobs , maybe players like you really find it worth making her tank dragonfly, i mean.. yeah i get what you are trying to say, i want the shield good enough for medium enemies not for bosses but it's hard to do that because all attacks are linked to the same pattern, maybe 70% medium mobs, and bosses ignore it. 

[ShyRo-Zyerenzy]

Also, even in this state ( old targeting ), she can already deal with bosses, you can sit in a corner using vigor at 1 hp and controlling the kiting for her  ( yes , deerclops, bearger if you wanted to challenge yourself). what will you do now ? it's too op for you? , it clearly has a glass canon/summoner theme. and her 1vs1 dmg is stronger. op boss killer better than wolfgang pepega , she avoids deer insanity aura and kills it kiting without dealing with healing and armor or nightmares ( the supposed op armor reduction ). nerffff!!! i cryy! S Tier!!! . but somebody went for the trouble of doing it. that's reward . i just said this because your limited experience with testing or playing wendy isn't enough. from the start she could deal with them in this released rework.

pd: wickerbottom can literally afk killing dfly/beequeen with tentacles , and abigail can't surpass a dark sword dmg yet , not taking into account the dmg modifier from wolfgang mighty form which is easier to keep than farming mourning glory. Can you explain me how is wendy S tier with a single reduction armor? 

[Booklover]

17 minutes ago, ShyRo-Zyerenzy said:

Also, even in this state ( old targeting ), she can already deal with bosses, you can sit in a corner using vigor at 1 hp and controlling the kiting for her  ( yes , deerclops, bearger if you wanted to challenge yourself). what will you do now ? it's too op for you? , it clearly has a glass canon/summoner theme. and her 1vs1 dmg is stronger. op boss killer better than wolfgang pepega , she avoids deer insanity aura and kills it kiting without dealing with healing and armor or nightmares ( the supposed op armor reduction ). nerffff!!! i cryy! S Tier!!! . but somebody went for the trouble of doing it. that's reward . i just said this because your limited experience with testing or playing wendy isn't enough. from the start she could deal with them in this released rework.

I must say, that simply isn't OP. OP is when you are able to do something better/be the best at something without putting in much effort. OP is like Wolfgang where he simply needs to eat a few meatballs, equip a hambat and he can already start killing bosses faster than others/be very good in almost everything.

You misunderstand me. I said that making Abigail have "player" status when dealing with mobs is a bad idea as all you need is Spectral Cure-All and you can already start dealing more dps than other characters simply because Abigail receives less damage from and can tank Deerclops as Deerclops deals 150 to mobs and 75 to players. You can already nullify one of Wendy's big weaknesses.

You give me another example which emphasises "skill" over "doing nothing" and I completely agree that it isn't OP. That requires skill and pratice but say another example: Wolfgang. He is OP because he gets 2x damage simply from being full which anyone can make meatballs. Wolfgang got 2x dps of any character just without any effort.

One thing I'd like to note is that you are either trying very hard to make me look bad or you just misunderstood what I said. I said that letting Abigail passively take less damage from bosses just because she has "player" status is awful as it breaks her character flaw. How did you think that relates to "Uagh! Abigail can solo Deerboi now! OP! Bad!"? I didn't say Abigail was good against bosses. In fact, I stated the OPPOSITE. Abigail was trash against bosses unless you use hard strategies such as your "making Abigail kite" which I am totally okay with.

(P.S another example would be Wickerbottom who is very strong in all areas of survival to the point that she synergises with everyone)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

22 minutes ago, ShyRo-Zyerenzy said:

Also, even in this state ( old targeting ), she can already deal with bosses, you can sit in a corner using vigor at 1 hp and controlling the kiting for her  ( yes , deerclops, bearger if you wanted to challenge yourself). what will you do now ? it's too op for you? , it clearly has a glass canon/summoner theme. and her 1vs1 dmg is stronger. op boss killer better than wolfgang pepega , she avoids deer insanity aura and kills it kiting without dealing with healing and armor or nightmares ( the supposed op armor reduction ). nerffff!!! i cryy! S Tier!!! . but somebody went for the trouble of doing it. that's reward . i just said this because your limited experience with testing or playing wendy isn't enough. from the start she could deal with them in this released rework.

pd: wickerbottom can literally afk killing dfly/beequeen with tentacles , and abigail can't surpass a dark sword dmg yet , not taking into account the dmg modifier from wolfgang mighty form which is easier to keep than farming mourning glory. Can you explain me how is wendy S tier with a single reduction armor? 

i dont want abi to kill the bosses for herself, i just want that she can participate without being one shot so the boss fight could be unique in comparation with other characters, Anyways abi already makes the boss fights easier than playing wilson because she farms the food for you in no time but making her participate is something that any character could do. Also if klei made her able to tank few boss fights it must be done with elixirs and skill not just letting her to do all job. which i love that they added it, they are not so grindy (each ghosh gives you like 6 glory) and its something unique that any other character has.

[Ludovicus]

For me, the main thing really "upsetting" me is the little change that was made a few days after the rework, in which Abigail stopped just attacking everything when rilled up. On the day of the rework i was really, really loving it, but that little change got me a bit turned off with her =/ I wish she got that rilled up mode back, that alone would make me really happy.

Other than that there were a few minor things that i started to realize as i played and started questioning myself:

1. I really liked how Abby's damage worked pre-rework. It was really nice to explore caves with that mechanic (supposedly 40 damage all the time in caves). But well, considering all the other improvements, this isn't really a problem. Except: Splitting the damage among the mobs is quite unnecessary, Wendy and Abby are already weak enough =/ (She could just have 20 damage all the time and get a better boost from potions. And maybe up to 10 extra attack at half hp if you want to keep that mechanic).

2. The first thing i thought about potions were: Why do they do not stack???! It's ok if they aren't that big of a boost, but they should at least stack and last long enough for a good fight (so there's time to prepare for the fight, kill monsters, and make sure i'm safe before it runs out -> Maybe 3~6 minutes?). It could even be more expensive to make them, so they won't be used all the time, but make it worth making them and using them. As they are, i'll just ignore this mechanic. I also noticed the defense potion didn't really make much, if any difference, but i was unsure if i was missing how it was supposed to work.

3. Furthermore, about potions: When i saw the potion tab, i was really expecting that if i stacked all the potions i would be able to fight the seasonal bosses with Abby's help. As in: 1.She wouldn't die within seconds; 2. She would do an ok amount of damage (30~40?); 3. I would be able to soothe Abby to wait her heal and resume the fight after a bit of running around. I mean, some of these are achievable, but i will have to choose between doing ok dmg and dying in 4~7 hits, or surviving a bit longer but doing very little damage and still dying quite fast. If the potions stacked and lasted a bit longer, she could probably actually survive a while (with suggestion for defense potion ->20% damage reduction + hp recovery potions ->22hp recovery per second for example, while doing ok damage attacking and being able to easily flee to recover hp if necessary with movement boost). This way, actually battling bosses a bit with her. But this could be ignored if at least the above were "fixed" somehow.

 

TL;DR: Make "Rilled Up" really "aggressive" again (attacking everything in sight). Minor things: 1. Do not split Abby's damage; 2. Make potions stack and last a couple minutes more, while "fixing" def potion (make it reduce 20~40% of incoming damage maybe?); 3. Same as 2 + example of improved seasonal boss fights with Abby using stacked potions and defense potion working nicer.

[ShyRo-Zyerenzy]

19 minutes ago, Booklover said:

I must say, that simply isn't OP. OP is when you are able to do something better/be the best at something without putting in much effort. OP is like Wolfgang where he simply needs to eat a few meatballs, equip a hambat and he can already start killing bosses faster than others/be very good in almost everything.

You misunderstand me. I said that making Abigail have "player" status when dealing with mobs is a bad idea as all you need is Spectral Cure-All and you can already start dealing more dps than other characters simply because Abigail receives less damage from and can tank Deerclops as Deerclops deals 150 to mobs and 75 to players. You can already nullify one of Wendy's big weaknesses.

You give me another example which emphasises "skill" over "doing nothing" and I completely agree that it isn't OP. That requires skill and pratice but say another example: Wolfgang. He is OP because he gets 2x damage simply from being full which anyone can make meatballs. Wolfgang got 2x dps of any character just without any effort.

One thing I'd like to note is that you are either trying very hard to make me look bad or you just misunderstood what I said. I said that letting Abigail passively take less damage from bosses just because she has "player" status is awful as it breaks her character flaw. How did you think that relates to "Uagh! Abigail can solo Deerboi now! OP! Bad!"? I didn't say Abigail was good against bosses. In fact, I stated the OPPOSITE. Abigail was trash against bosses unless you use hard strategies such as your "making Abigail kite" which I am totally okay with.

(P.S another example would be Wickerbottom who is very strong in all areas of survival to the point that she synergises with everyone)

don't you realize, if you want to farm with her, it's only worth using the healing one, not any other potion? , can you not see the whole point of making the others stronger so they have a reason to be used? she's weak now, the accessibility for dmg and the potion effects.
Also if its able to be stacked that open new playstyles, that's fun. why would i reject those possibilities ? 

[Kaw_]

I have no problem arguing opinions with what I think, but I will ask and remember again, avoid using offensive forms, even if they seem harmless, talk about what the person is talking about, not about them. Arguing helps to understand points of view, but respect is necessary.

Going back to the topic, a Klei dev himself said that the goal is not to make Wendy a "summoner". They will make changes in Abigail and some elixirs. Hopefully also "fix" Abby's agression.

The armor defense elixir is not exactly for boss fights, it will only have a better use than the current one. Klei in this situation could even reverse the situation, penalizing 1v1 but improving 1v2+++, It would make more sense.

(Edit) I never did and I will never mind bosses playing with Wendy, it's something that every character can do thanks to Kaiting(Edit: not only bosses but many 1v1 fights, If not ALL of'em). If she gets worse in all types of 1v1, I won't mind, but when it comes to multiple enemies, she needs to be important.

35 minutes ago, ShyRo-Zyerenzy said:

don't you realize, if you want to farm with her, it's only worth using the healing one, not any other potion? , can you not see the whole point of making the others stronger so they have a reason to be used? she's weak now, the accessibility for dmg and the potion effects.
Also if its able to be stacked that open new playstyles, that's fun. why would i reject those possibilities ? 

I personally prefer the thorns

[QuartzBeam]

12 hours ago, Booklover said:

Another thing is some people wanting Abigail to take Player damage instead of Mob damage which is good and all but if you do that then Abigail would be able to tank Deerclops no problem with a Spectral Cure-All since Abigail can reliably heal pretty much almost all of Deerclops' damage, essentially giving her pseudo-tankiness and removing one of Wendy's weaknesses which were bosses.

I did some quick math on this. (edit: meaning the idea of having Abigail take half damage from bosses)

Deerclops deals 75 damage to players and attacks every 4 seconds. Abigail attacks every 1 second and, assuming Wendy is at full health, deals 20 damage. Deerclops would need to land 8 hits to kill Abigail, which takes a total of 32 seconds. So unassisted, Abigail would be able to deal 640 damage before expiring.

In practice, Deerclops attacks more slowly than that (it's 4 seconds between the end of his attack animation and the start of the next), but either way Abigail isn't the tide turner you think she'd be. Spectral Cure-Alls are fairly expensive and would only buy Abigail an extra 16 seconds each, AKA 320 damage.

Now, if you dropped to 1 HP, she'd manage to dish out 1920 damage before expiring (2304 with a Choleric Tonic)...

[fimmatek]

1 minute ago, QuartzBeam said:

Deerclops deals 75 damage to players and attacks every 4 seconds. Abigail attacks every 1 second and, assuming Wendy is at full health, deals 20 damage. Deerclops would need to land 8 hits to kill Abigail, which takes a total of 32 seconds. So unassisted, Abigail would be able to deal 640 damage before expiring.

Deerclops deals double damage to non-players, including Abigail, so she takes 150, not just 75.

[QuartzBeam]

Just now, fimmatek said:

Deerclops deals double damage to non-players, including Abigail, so she takes 150, not just 75.

Yes, I know. I'm talking about the proposed change of making Abigail take half damage from bosses like players do.

[DVGMedia]

i always held multiple abby flowers in my inventory   pre changes  and thinking about that and what it entailed in comparison to what we have now really is much more stronger    they did try to compensate abbys survivability more with the default shield and it really does help  to keep  a singular abby alive since it changes the fact  she now has invincibility frames and doesn't get hit by  everything in a crowd. Which is really good

if you look at it back then abbys managment on damage was fairly simple too  with it being based on the time of day  or if you were in the caves or not.  This was such a unique dynamic in itself because there were processes in the game you can take advantage of on both the overworld shard and cave shard. The over world having beef which negated wendy's own damage penalty and basically counted as a separate pool of health but then you need to wait for night to have abby be at her fullest potential.  or in caves where abby is at her fullest but wendy still has her penalty and can also take damage much easier.

my question to pose is this though  What would be acceptable  to trade for what we had already.  all the characters had an upgrade in some way in each of their reworks.  But the update does really feel like a worse side grade from what we had already with wendy. 

I am thinking right now  the best thing to do is to actually scrap what elixirs do right now (giving a temporary buff)  and make it a permanent  buff that allows you to choose what you want of your abby. keep in mind that if abby dies all the progress would be lost   so this still makes you want to keep  abby alive in fights but  also aids in using other elixirs  

if this were to be done I feel abby should start at her base 20 damage she has now and 300 hp  which you can upgrade to your liking or  even make abby builds using different flowers but if abby dies at any time all the builds will be lost.

but how i would suggest builds would work would be something like abby has a max buff amount of 6 elixirs  and stacking elixirs of the same type would give diminishing returns  so yes you can have an abby that does lots of damage but she would have low hp making her more glass cannon like
say damage  the first upgrade can make her damage from 20 to 30  but each one you add on gives diminishing returns  so the next would just by 7 giving 37 then 44 50 55 60  with a max buffed attack 

defense elixer can add actual defense  percents as people have told 

thorns would be a weaker defense but act as a reflector doing damage back that was blocked  (maybe stack both)?

cure all will add Hp to abbys max hp 

speed will add speed 25%
 
and the weak regen will buff her regen rate 1 each

I am not sure on some of the numbers for other potions but i think this will make things better for all types of players

people can get their damage if they so choose or they can play  a middling damage defense or go full defense  with retaliation. It has many different options that should satisfy  the player base

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

I did some quick math on this. (edit: meaning the idea of having Abigail take half damage from bosses)

Deerclops deals 75 damage to players and attacks every 4 seconds. Abigail attacks every 1 second and, assuming Wendy is at full health, deals 20 damage. Deerclops would need to land 8 hits to kill Abigail, which takes a total of 32 seconds. So unassisted, Abigail would be able to deal 640 damage before expiring.

In practice, Deerclops attacks more slowly than that (it's 4 seconds between the end of his attack animation and the start of the next), but either way Abigail isn't the tide turner you think she'd be. Spectral Cure-Alls are fairly expensive and would only buy Abigail an extra 16 seconds each, AKA 320 damage.

Now, if you dropped to 1 HP, she'd manage to dish out 1920 damage before expiring (2304 with a Choleric Tonic)...

almost 2k damage against a 6k boss looks balanced to me taking in count that you will recall her before dying, you farmed elixirs to prevent her dying quick and that for wendy, in maths terms, deerclops has 7500hp

 

[QuartzBeam]

38 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

almost 2k damage against a 6k boss looks balanced to me taking in count that you will recall her before dying, you farmed elixirs to prevent her dying quick and that for wendy, in maths terms, deerclops has 7500hp

 

Deerclops has 4000 hp not 6000.

[Booklover]

5 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

-SNIP-

She would still be able to get around double or a bit less seconds compared to being in "mob" status. Then, Wendy can actually have a companion while battling Deerclops instead of being alone when Abigail dies after a few hits.

8 hours ago, ShyRo-Zyerenzy said:

don't you realize, if you want to farm with her, it's only worth using the healing one, not any other potion? , can you not see the whole point of making the others stronger so they have a reason to be used? she's weak now, the accessibility for dmg and the potion effects.
Also if its able to be stacked that open new playstyles, that's fun. why would i reject those possibilities ? 

Okay I figured that we have a communication problem: You're talking about Elixirs while I'm talking about Abigail's status as a mob. I'm sorry if I confused or mislead you in anyway in my comments.

Anyways, on Elixirs, now. I think that they're pretty meh at the moment and while people may want a rework for the elixirs, I want to add my few ideas. One, is that when Elixirs are made stackable, their recipe and power should be changed. Maybe turn them into WX78 upgrades? Like Vigor Mortis increases Abigail's speed by a bit per time but lasts until she dies. Upgrading your Abigail and making sure she doesn't die.

Or perhaps form switcher elixirs like, Battle Elixir, Night Elixir, etc. Those elixirs give many effects put into one and switches Abigail's form.

Or we could go the people's way and just make it stackable, no change otherwise whatsoever. I just think that Klei made the elixirs not stacking for a reason. Like you actually have to think before you apply an elixir instead of "Welp, Imma just apply all" which just... requires no strategising or thinking at all.

Like now, you actually want to decide what elixir you want. Vigor Mortis for (your example) kiting capabilities? Choleric Tonic for death-inflicting results? Or maybe sweet sweet Vengeance for that mountain of frogs? If elixirs were stackable WITHOUT any cons, everyone would just pop Choleric Tonic, Vengeance and Spectral Cure-All on their Abigail and sit on the grass eating popcorn. Where's the thinking in that?

[Mike23Ua]

41 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Deerclops has 4000 hp not 6000.

Deerclops is easily killable with the Reworked Abigail provided the user knows how to effectively use Her.

You can Summon and Unsummon Abigail, Which as long as you have the time and Patience makes Deerclops possible with Abby and Wendy teaming up on it.

Bearger on the other hand.... don’t Bother, I’ve tried and failed multiple times.

Maybe if Abby potions could be stacked.. but for now she dies rather Quickly to Bearger. She does however make an excellent kiting tool on him.

Also I should clarify that when we say we want potions to be stackable there are two types of stacking-

1- Where you Apply 3-4 different potions and have each type active all at once.

and 2- Where you continue to apply the same type of potion multiple times to increase its Duration.

I believe BOTH types of Stacking should be allowed on Abigail, But only within Reasonable Balance..

For Example If a Defense Elixir only lasts 1 minute, applying 3 of them at once now makes the effect last 3 minutes.

Maybe for Balance purposes you can only have a total of 5 potion effects applied to Abigail.. but I’m Sure Klei will come up with something good.

[Kaw_]

Why bother killing bosses with her, tho, it's not the objective.