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Cooling on Aboria


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Loving the forest map, tricky though.  I was running Oxyfern's on a 2 tile high CO2 sink at the bottom spread wide.  Hydroponic to save on water delivery.

I decided to concentrate the system with all 12 oxyferns set below some woodburners at bottom center of the base. I produce enough o2 but the cooling is a pain.   The low water made me rush to find the CSV and now it's too hot.   I made a basic ethanol circuit coolant from and back too, a nearby rust biome.   Rust is 4.0 for thermal conductivity though and wont re-absorb the heat from the ethanol.   I even tried snaking it through some mafic rock.

 

What are you guys doing for coolant without wheezeworts now?   I havn't made a rust deoxydizer yet,  are they as hot as an electrolyzer on the outputs?

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1 hour ago, Shocker said:

What are you guys doing for coolant without wheezeworts now?   I havn't made a rust deoxydizer yet,  are they as hot as an electrolyzer on the outputs?

Put a couple of ice makers in a hot biome.  Dupes will schlep water to them, and ice back.  Melt the ice under whatever you need to cool.  Technically the ice maker deletes 20% of the water's heat, but if it's far enough away you can ignore 100% of it.

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Setting aside the fact that it's obviously exploiting unintended behavior, how much heat can that really sink in a typical ranch?  Without some kind of debug-built automated monstrosity maximizing the effect, is it even noticeable?

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1 hour ago, Shocker said:

Loving the forest map, tricky though.  I was running Oxyfern's on a 2 tile high CO2 sink at the bottom spread wide.  Hydroponic to save on water delivery.

I decided to concentrate the system with all 12 oxyferns set below some woodburners at bottom center of the base. I produce enough o2 but the cooling is a pain.   The low water made me rush to find the CSV and now it's too hot.   I made a basic ethanol circuit coolant from and back too, a nearby rust biome.   Rust is 4.0 for thermal conductivity though and wont re-absorb the heat from the ethanol.   I even tried snaking it through some mafic rock.

 

What are you guys doing for coolant without wheezeworts now?   I havn't made a rust deoxydizer yet,  are they as hot as an electrolyzer on the outputs?

First off, mafic rock is an insulator, the game tooltip is misleading with its "thermally reactive", that just means it has a low SHC, which actually means it's really bad to cool stuff down, because it can't absorb much heat, on top of the transfer taking longer. What you want is something with a high SHC and high thermal conductivity to dump heat into, and that's basically always water (ridiculous SHC, decent thermal conductivity), and can be aided with aluminum tempshift plates (ridiculous thermal conductivity, better than diamond).

Second off, ethanol is somewhat worse than water/steam for cooling loops and should only be considered in them when your temperature range is outside of -20 C to 120 C (polluted water's liquid range) or 100 C up (steam's range). I'm guessing your situation is the former, so you should just be using polluted water.

Anyways, as far as an actual long-term solution, steam turbine and aquatuner all the way. Wheezeworts are solely for areas of the base far from your main cooling loop that just need to fight a little bit of heat like from incubators or nearby warm biomes (especially drecko ranches, cause these will tend to be in an awkward spot to begin with and the wheezewort's fertilizer is made right there on the ranch too).

Ice makers are usually a poor solution (mostly just moves heat around, cannot really combat the heat of significant machinery, and take a fair bit of dupe labor too) for when wheezeworts aren't an option and you're far from a higher-tech solution.

Ranching will of course help, and pokeshells love to eat the the hot polluted dirt from ethanol production and crap some much cooler sand, which you then feed into your sieves, as it greatly influences the water output temperature (and the polluted water in will be pretty warm as it comes out at the temp of the petroleum gen).

Also, watch out for pressure buildup. You will need carbon skimmers and less oxyferns if you want to prevent overpressuring your base and needing crazy amounts of water (carbon skimmers are water-neutral, they basically just turn carbon dioxide and filtration medium into polluted dirt when looped with a sieve).

As a related tip I learned from Verdante, you should have one sieve for all your [polluted] water sources feeding into all your water sinks, and other sieves for anything that self-sustains in a loop directly, to prevent backing up from the ebbs and flows of the sources vs. sinks; for bathrooms, there will be a slight net gain, and you should use the bridging priority trick (pipe running past a bridge's input, will first use the bridge, only go past if bridge exit blocked, so bridge has priority) so only excess water comes out, treating such as a water source to feed into your main sieve. This is important especially when you have hot water coming in, cause if you're using it over available excess bathroom water and sieved output from the petroleum generator, that's extra heating you don't really need to have to deal with. Also, prioritize groups of water sinks with bridging, so that your overflow pool or space escape valve only works on actual excess after everything else is full.

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3 minutes ago, Lurve said:

how much heat can that really sink in a typical ranch? 

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/109242-critter-based-cooling/

I can offer you the values for single critter. [Just didn´t take the time to update the pufts.]

 

=> 35 M DTU [35.000.000 DTU] for a single hatch egg sounds like a noticeable cooling potential.^^

[And it resets to a for duplicants liveable temperature, which reduces the footprint of the build.^^]

 

6 minutes ago, Lurve said:

Setting aside the fact that it's obviously exploiting unintended behavior

It´s the usual discussion: Are fixed temperatures an exploit ?^^

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Welp. I can tell you I didnt do wood burners at all (almost). I just kept rushing to dig every bit of coal possible until I got hatches. Also sticking coal gens + rust deoxy + carbon skimmer + domesticated dasha saltvines really proves to be a nice combo. I did grab Wheezeworts eventually but it was MUCH later. I just cooled my base with water loops in rust biomes the whole time.

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To add to my earlier explanations of what to do in forest starts, here's my current Verdante base, cycle 133:

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DffoFlK.jpg

And its heat (about 20 cycles ago, it was 45-50C all the way from the thimble reeds in the room with the metal refinery down to the source/sink sieve, you can see the effects above and below, and hot pool to the right is from metal refining to get the steel for the cooling aquatuner; also note the pokeshells and their poop are slight cold spots despite the polluted dirt food being super hot):

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0ZCvrgv.jpg

And the plumbing I use (water-positive since I use wild trees, that storage tank on the left is overflow...and is now full, so I need to get on space venting already), and the polluted tank on the right is my source, from generators above):

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W3vzrdA.jpg

The kicker here is carbon dioxide buildup, even with 4 skimmers (they're not placed optimally and with the power usage so high the generator's always going, I need to probably add a coal generator with sage hatch farming to spend my 500 tons of dirt on so I can power more skimmers in better spots):

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vQbszA5.jpg

Arboria's not much different. Might be harder to find dreckos? And of course, less slime biomes around for spare polluted water, but there's only even two pools that I found pre-existing, my overflow pool and the metal refinery's coolant pool, and the former I have increased and the latter is no longer being changed. I plan to run a second petroleum generator and ethanol setup eventually, in that empty space by the refinery, which might take domestic trees, but of course, I have excess polluted water (and piles of dirt) that might just barely feed them.

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Early on I put an aquatuner in a tub of polluted/salt water and then cool a heat sink that I run a water cooling loop through.  You can also create an isolated cool room with icy makes & Ice fans for your food production and leave the rest of the living area hotter.  I never put an machinery in the living/growing area.  Put it outside sealed off with insulated tiles.  You can last for hundreds of cycles this way.

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1 hour ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/109242-critter-based-cooling/

I can offer you the values for single critter. [Just didn´t take the time to update the pufts.]

 

=> 35 M DTU [35.000.000 DTU] for a single hatch egg sounds like a noticeable cooling potential.^^

[And it resets to a for duplicants liveable temperature, which reduces the footprint of the build.^^]

When you pass the egg through the heart of a sun it cools a lot, yeah, I got the idea.  But an egg sitting in a ranch is not going to absorb 35 megadeets, so is it even enough to bother with?  I'm not mathmanican or one of the other clever boots.  If I can't half ass it, I'm not going to ass it at all.

 

1 hour ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

It´s the usual discussion: Are fixed temperatures an exploit ?^^

In this case, yes.

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36 minutes ago, Lurve said:

When you pass the egg through the heart of a sun it cools a lot, yeah, I got the idea.  But an egg sitting in a ranch is not going to absorb 35 megadeets, so is it even enough to bother with?  I'm not mathmanican or one of the other clever boots.  If I can't half ass it, I'm not going to ass it at all.

My ratios are per egg to indicate it takes the egg stage into account.

=> The hatch has still to hatch and reach at least maturity.

 

The cooling steps:

Spoiler
  • Heat the egg to at least 70°C to reach my calulated value [but the sky is the limit here^^]
  • Heat the eggshell again [at least 70°C but there is no upper limit]
    • Lime got a lower SHC
  • Heat the hatchling to almost 70°C
  • (Maybe wait till you got an egg.)
  • Heat the mature hatch till it dies

=> All steps add up to the 35 M DTU

 

 

 

Think of it this way: Hatches regulate the temperature towards 20°C.

=> Any hatch ranch anywhere with a temperature >20°C will cool the sourunding.

[If your ranch is close to 70°C without killing the hatches you will still be able to achieve close 35M DTU heat deletion for each full life cycle of a hatch.]

 

37 minutes ago, Lurve said:
2 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

It´s the usual discussion: Are fixed temperatures an exploit ?^^

In this case, yes.

If critter would hatch at the temperature of the egg, we would be able to exploit critters like the natural gas generators.

[Use a little cooling on the building to produce huge amounts of cold output^^]

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You can take a low-tech approach to handling the steam vent.

First, you'll want to isolate it with basic insulated tile. Then, given the large amount of surrounding cold biomes (rust / cold) you can just route the captured steam / water to the center of one of them, and let it passively cool. It won't work forever, but it's a good temporary solution if you're trying to rely on a steam geyser for water. You can then pump from the reservoir to your base where you need it.

I haven't played since QoL mk. II update, so learning the game again on Arboria has been fun.

Haven't had any cooling issues...There's just too many cold biomes surrounding you.

With no slime biomes, just get out and explore willy nilly.

Arboria seems to reward quick exploration, especially once you find a couple caustic biomes for coal / algae, and the saltwater biome for easy sand.

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oxyferns are way to water intensive.  Especially on a map with such low starting water.

image.thumb.png.46cfd7a58e184f3065230997248a7d7b.png

Two regulators for cooling lice (should use aquatuner I suppose but not much power).  Added CO2 scrubber  around 80 cycle.  One rust and one algae for O2 but I should get electros up soon. Berries very slow on seed generation. I am turning slime in algae and water for the berries (very little algae on this map).  Coal for power.

image.thumb.png.8cd5ab99cda7ed1e57927e4851fbb60e.png

 

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@chemie

Out of curiosity, why put things that get hot, next to things that can't get hot or they die?

Seems like you could do away with some unnecessary cooling and save yourself some early game pressure if you just put everything that generates heat on one side of your base, and everything that needs to stay cool on the other...

*shrug*

 

 

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5 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

My ratios are per egg to indicate it takes the egg stage into account.

=> The hatch has still to hatch and reach at least maturity.

 

The cooling steps:

  Reveal hidden contents
  • Heat the egg to at least 70°C to reach my calulated value [but the sky is the limit here^^]
  • Heat the eggshell again [at least 70°C but there is no upper limit]
    • Lime got a lower SHC
  • Heat the hatchling to almost 70°C
  • (Maybe wait till you got an egg.)
  • Heat the mature hatch till it dies

=> All steps add up to the 35 M DTU

 

 

 

Think of it this way: Hatches regulate the temperature towards 20°C.

=> Any hatch ranch anywhere with a temperature >20°C will cool the sourunding.

[If your ranch is close to 70°C without killing the hatches you will still be able to achieve close 35M DTU heat deletion for each full life cycle of a hatch.]

 

If critter would hatch at the temperature of the egg, we would be able to exploit critters like the natural gas generators.

[Use a little cooling on the building to produce huge amounts of cold output^^]

Ah, okay.  I'd thought it was 35M DTU/s. 35 M DTU over the life cycle of a hatch... isn't a whole lot of heat.  Assuming optimal conditions, in a 25-cycle time interval, 20 cycles to hatch and 5 to mature, that's like a fifth of a wheezewort.  I think I'll keep recommending the ice maker.

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ice maker only deletes 4k DTU/s, or 2.4M DTU/cycle if promptly refilled immediately each time it finishes. Let's call it 80% uptime so ~2M DTU/cycle and apprx. Call it 6 errands per cycle (3 delivering water, 3 retrieving ice)

If one hatch is ~1.2M DTU/cycle, and never technically needs to be groomed, and two grooming errands for each egg you want laid (if you're trying to grow the population ~only~) 

Then hatches are individually in the same order of magnitude as a single ice maker, but take one order less dupe labor. OR, you can go the route of letting them live out their lifecycle in which case each hatch would be about 1/6th of an ice maker but the whole thing takes zero labor once you get the population established.


I find this a somewhat careless oversight and distasteful/unintuitive so I'll avoid it. But, don't underestimate this approach.

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The real big benefit of critters is that they can eat very hot things without heating up, then they poop whatever their body temp is. It's a bit hard to exploit properly, but in theory you can do things like make a cooker room with an aquatuner sitting in crude that contains a bunch of unwanted material, then feed that material to hatches to get nice clean cool coal; on Arboria, said unwanted material is most likely dirt, because it just slowly builds up over time from Pips, even if you never compost, and don't worry about the lower output from regular hatches over sage ones, that just means more heat is deleted (at the cost of potential power)!

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5 hours ago, Nebbie said:

It's a bit hard to exploit properly

If you got a vacuume inside your farm and your critter feeder is standing on a mesh tile, your hatch food will be insulated.

=> Just set up a conveyor system with a rail through a "hot" room and your done xD

 

[I like to ranch hatches for coal/ceramic and if an hatch ranch inside my base helps to stabilize the temperature, that´s just a bonus.^^]

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On 8/2/2019 at 7:41 PM, ruhrohraggy said:

@chemie

Out of curiosity, why put things that get hot, next to things that can't get hot or they die?

Seems like you could do away with some unnecessary cooling and save yourself some early game pressure if you just put everything that generates heat on one side of your base, and everything that needs to stay cool on the other...

*shrug*

 

 

Insulation on the mealwood stops any heat penetration.  I did get around to insulating the berries but the research/cooking does not generate "too" much heat.  I generally put all heat producers outside base except research and cooking.  (Yes, those thermo regs could be a bit further away or not right beside a door to the base.

I found I was living on the edge for 200 cycles on this map.  Mostly having to search for coal, salt, and algae to survive until a decent base was up.  I like that the build order I had for typical map was all turned upside down here.  I mean, I have NEVER gone to cycle 12 without ANY O2 production....until this map.

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Started a new map.   Set up the ferns on base level and watched my pressures.   Lucked out with a CSV beside me at 3 o'clock and  4 cold rust biomes at 6-2 o'clock around me.  Fairly water intensive but I am maxing research at a low tech. 

 Also got a nat gas opposite side of base from CSV so thats running power and extra C02 as I expand.  Pressures around 1100 and stable.

 

Dont really have an issue with cooling at the moment as the rust biomes are keeping my water tanks under control.  Stuck an aquatuner in the CSV before it started up again.  Use it later with some PW for a coolabt loop. 

 Still I am 130 cycles deep on Ferns!    Digging for a saltwater geyser next to get the rust deoxydizers going.    How do you add the screenshot of the base or take the picture in the first place?

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3 hours ago, chemie said:

Insulation on the mealwood stops any heat penetration.  I did get around to insulating the berries but the research/cooking does not generate "too" much heat.  I generally put all heat producers outside base except research and cooking.  (Yes, those thermo regs could be a bit further away or not right beside a door to the base.

I found I was living on the edge for 200 cycles on this map.  Mostly having to search for coal, salt, and algae to survive until a decent base was up.  I like that the build order I had for typical map was all turned upside down here.  I mean, I have NEVER gone to cycle 12 without ANY O2 production....until this map.

My experience on Verdante hasn't been that bad, though since I play on No Sweat, food isn't really an issue. Having to farm mealwood is doable, but annoying. My main strategy is to absolutely rush for a smart battery controlling a petroleum generator burning ethanol, alongside ranching. Omelettes are a pretty good food source and glossy dreckos are absolutely essential if you want a steam turbine cycle before cycle 200 to deal with the ridiculous heat from the petroleum generator. Mealwood stuff goes on one side of the base, power generation and polluted dirt stuff on the other.

So far, I've had my main issues post-turbine being carbon dioxide-related. The base I showed earlier is now around cycle 250 and has finally stabilized at near-sustainability (dirt is being consumed slightly faster than produced, may run out in 1000 cycles or so). The trick was getting sage hatches up for coal power (which is why dirt's now down to only 500 tons), fixing some venting issues with my natural gas generator, then shutting down the petroleum generator for a bit to let the carbon skimmers do their work. I had to turn it back on, of course, cause then the oxyferns were missing water, but the carbon skimmers now keep up with it, and a solar panel has ended occasional brownouts (I had a few less trees wildplanted than needed and the natural gas geyser of course likes to go dormant every now and then).

The base:

Spoiler

M9s6PFp.jpg

The heat, still solved:

Spoiler

Hun71le.jpg

The plumbing...very messy now, but has to be for carbon skimmers:

Spoiler

VphYwfH.jpg

The oxygen, I should probably reenable that one carbon skimmer:

Spoiler

VT5Xcj6.jpg

And the surface secondary area, very WIP as I need to implement a robominer cooling solution and actually figure outhow to convey the regolith down properly:

Spoiler

ZITFn2I.jpg

 

14 minutes ago, Shocker said:

Started a new map.   Set up the ferns on base level and watched my pressures.   Lucked out with a CSV beside me at 3 o'clock and  4 cold rust biomes at 6-2 o'clock around me.  Fairly water intensive but I am maxing research at a low tech. 

 Also got a nat gas opposite side of base from CSV so thats running power and extra C02 as I expand.  Pressures around 1100 and stable.

 

Dont really have an issue with cooling at the moment as the rust biomes are keeping my water tanks under control.  Stuck an aquatuner in the CSV before it started up again.  Use it later with some PW for a coolabt loop. 

 Still I am 130 cycles deep on Ferns!    Digging for a saltwater geyser next to get the rust deoxydizers going.    How do you add the screenshot of the base or take the picture in the first place?

Alt+S enters screenshot mode, I use the print screen to take the actual screenshot once I'm in the right view and looking at the right thing; though I forget what nonsense Windows does (it should open up the snipping tool I think, and it may be a bit of a hassle to upload to imgur from there, for me, going from view of base to imgur upload only takes 4 clicks cause of KDE Spectacle being a good screenshot utility).

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9 hours ago, chemie said:

Insulation on the mealwood stops any heat penetration.  I did get around to insulating the berries but the research/cooking does not generate "too" much heat.  I generally put all heat producers outside base except research and cooking.  (Yes, those thermo regs could be a bit further away or not right beside a door to the base.

I found I was living on the edge for 200 cycles on this map.  Mostly having to search for coal, salt, and algae to survive until a decent base was up.  I like that the build order I had for typical map was all turned upside down here.  I mean, I have NEVER gone to cycle 12 without ANY O2 production....until this map.

I did see that...it just looked like there was a little heat bleed-through, either through the pipes, or through the door, which would necessitate cooling.

Yeah, Arboria is definitely fun and different...Requires different priorities for sure. I like that the setup encourages quick exploration, opposed to the standard map that punishes you for it with slime biomes and pockets of other unbreathable gases.

5 hours ago, Shocker said:

  How do you add the screenshot of the base or take the picture in the first place?

You can press ALT-S for screenshot mode, then use Alt-print screen to capture your active window => Paste to paint. Or press F12 and get it off steam screenshots.

Can just drag your image into your post and it will upload it. I typically hide them with spoilers as more of a forum manners thing.

So drag picture in -> Click on picture -> Click on little eyeball in the upper right to "spoiler" it.

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