Enzium Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Lately when I’m browsing the forums I notice a lot of hostility. Almost in every topic people are getting way off-topic and end up arguing (aggressively) about opinions. I’ve noticed that people become arrogant and try to “politely insult” others by being passive agressive when someone gives wrong information rather than to point out what was wrong/correct them. And even if people get corrected, it gets done in such a passive aggressive way. When people have different opinions about a subject, it gets really intense quickly. Can we just respect each other differences and help each other out where needed? Don’t get me wrong, I believe arguing/discussing is a good thing and is often needed to come to a good solution, but please keep it respectful. Klei already responded on a few topics to keep things respectful and on-topic and I fully agree with them. I don’t want this forum to turn out like 90% of the forums on the internet, lets keep it a nice place. Now that being said… Feel free to argue about whether or not this should be under the “Suggestions and Feedback” and point out I am wrong... Or throw Meep in a magma pit . (Now it was my turn to be passive agressive ) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gracefulmuse Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 I agree. Ever since the launch beta has started, I have observed a rather noticeable increase in agressive statements. Remember everyone we are all here because we (hopefully) enjoy ONI and want new players to feel welcome for asking questions or sharing their enjoyment. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SakuraKoi Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, Enzium said: passive aggressive Please, kindly leave the interwebs even if you are a Poe, thank you. Seriously, this forum is a very nice place and trying to take away from anyone's temper is just wrong. Actual insults are few and far in between and properly dealt with. This forum does not even need moderators. Taking so much offense in people going off topic is ironically more offensive than the actual offense, it is utterly petty and restricts "freedom of speech" to a high degree when actually enforced at the first sign of off-topic. Being aggressive is like any other trait and action not inherently wrong and often quite necessary while uncalled for in other cases. What matters is either (or both) intend and result. The end does not justify the means but being aggressive, not even being unethical in any way, and "passive" at that? Does that mean that no means can be used to achieve an end? Is it wrong to stand one's ground, while staying respectful like right here in this forum, when the other is indeed wrong? Taking this "be very very very nice to each other" is one of the biggest flaws of our times and not just because some many just hide behind that veil, being not rarely are seriously aggressive, malicious and harmful. It's a little shame that the only translation for the German term "verweichlicht" that applies here is for some reason "effeminate" when "weich" means "soft" (and "ver-"+"-licht" is, er, grammar stuff) but in any event, people are indeed getting too soft which results in exaggerated actions against the most minor of (even just possible) conflicts. It's common already that certain groups perceive any difference in opinion as "hostility", that must not be. Just how can one possibly change their opinion like that when they get all defensive and stubborn? That is the internet in a nutshell, someone conceding a point is rarer than encountering a being known from legends like "a female on the internet who is actually female and where one can actually not tell whether they are female". Folks are already very respectful to each other and newcomers even more so. Asking for even more is just rude. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzium Posted July 11, 2019 Author Share Posted July 11, 2019 I agree with you that it's a very nice place and I would like to keep it that way, I just noticed lately that things are getting worse. (Getting worse is a huge exaggeration) I’m not being offended in any regard and I didn’t say that people should change from who they are or how they discuss anything. However there is a big difference between defending your argument with frustration/hostility and discussing in a respectful way. Maybe I didn’t use the term aggressive properly and as you say it’s sometimes needed to stand your ground, but to me it’s not needed to include how unpleasant the mother is of someone who just disagreed with you. I’m not saying that happened so far, but I can read a lot of frustrations that is outed towards each other. I’m just suggesting that it’s not a bad idea to out your frustrations on duplicants instead of outing them on other people. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Enzium said: Now that being said… Feel free to argue about whether or not this should be under the “Suggestions and Feedback” and point out I am wrong... Or throw Meep in a magma pit . (Now it was my turn to be passive agressive ) Meep does not thank you. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oozinator Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Enzium said: Lately when I’m browsing the forums I notice a lot of hostility. Can we blame Jesus for it? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greybear Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 I noticed the same thing when I first started using this forum. I wasn't especially mindful of my own words then, something that I am trying to correct. My experience since has only confirmed that this is a very hostile place, both towards the game and developers but also towards other users. The only way to use these forums is for me to ignore a large amount of the user base - and try not to get dragged into any pointless arguments about playstyle, or the continued hate towards the game development. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakomaru Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 I would hope this gets stickied, but I also know it won't matter. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 2 hours ago, SakuraKoi said: Taking this "be very very very nice to each other" is one of the biggest flaws of our times and not just because some many just hide behind that veil, being not rarely are seriously aggressive, malicious and harmful. It's a little shame that the only translation for the German term "verweichlicht" that applies here is for some reason "effeminate" when "weich" means "soft" (and "ver-"+"-licht" is, er, grammar stuff) but in any event, people are indeed getting too soft which results in exaggerated actions against the most minor of (even just possible) conflicts. It's common already that certain groups perceive any difference in opinion as "hostility", that must not be. It is getting so bad that some students were recently offended at their thesis defense when I called them when they claimed nonsense in a few critical places. Their main complaint afterwards was that I did not do it "nice" enough. They passed, but they should probably have failed. This "form over function" approach is entirely dysfunctional. I had to tell them afterwards that a thesis defense is decidedly not a "safe space". You can either be "nice" at all times, or you can actually have an exchange. If you are nice all the time, some people will just ride right over you without the least bit of remorse and that does accomplish less than not having the exchange in the first place. Personally, my impression is this "nice" faction consists of two groups: A small that has noticed they can "win" easily if everybody has to be nice, and a large group that supports them without understanding in the least what is going on. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpy Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Does not feel any different than any other forum on the internet. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 57 minutes ago, Oozinator said: Can we blame Jesus for it? From what I've been told, Jesus is in all of us. Hostility is also in all of us. This correlation is irrefutable proof of causation Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greybear Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Also, if you hover your mouse pointer over an avatar, you can choose to ignore specific users. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderCN Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 There are just a couple of really aggressive posters who hate everything new being done to the game and they have to let everyone know about it. I plan on putting the worst of them on ignore today, if I can figure out how to do it! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, Greybear said: Also, if you hover your mouse pointer over an avatar, you can choose to ignore specific users. Ah, thanks. Did not see that so far. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxCD Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 I was expecting @Oozinator to come up here. And I was expecting him to wave a meme. I don't know why, let's just call that a feeling. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzium Posted July 11, 2019 Author Share Posted July 11, 2019 41 minutes ago, Gurgel said: It is getting so bad that some students were recently offended at their thesis defense when I called them when they claimed nonsense in a few critical places. Their main complaint afterwards was that I did not do it "nice" enough. They passed, but they should probably have failed. This "form over function" approach is entirely dysfunctional. I had to tell them afterwards that a thesis defense is decidedly not a "safe space". You can either be "nice" at all times, or you can actually have an exchange. If you are nice all the time, some people will just ride right over you without the least bit of remorse and that does accomplish less than not having the exchange in the first place. Personally, my impression is this "nice" faction consists of two groups: A small that has noticed they can "win" easily if everybody has to be nice, and a large group that supports them without understanding in the least what is going on. People are getting way to offended with almost everything lately and it feels that the majority if people need to learn how to take a few punches without calling that things are unfair or yelling they are offended.. I do believe that never at one point during the thesis defense you ever insulted your students or got too personal with them. You are entitled to your opinion and I think it’s fair to stand your ground until proven wrong, and this can be done firmly. But defending your opinion firmly during a discussion and being hostile or mean in a discussion often get confused. The same about the point of my topic. It’s not about people not being able to defend their opinion anymore. It’s about how people defend their opinion and how they are hostile. I do not agree in any way that you have to be mean, hostile or get personal in order to defend your argument. (Not saying you implied that) If you believe in your opinion or argument, provide facts or bring even a complete lecture about the matter, but there is never a need to lash out personal attacks. Also this community is a completely different environment than a thesis defense or a work environment. We all play the same game for the same reason, Joy. And it would be nice if the hostile attitude gets dropped. (I know you didnt imply any of this but I just wanted to get that out) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGCat Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 The most people are normal here. I don't see the reason for your posting... Have you ever read a multiplayer forum from a first person shooter or the comments underneath a news article? It seems not. And by the way: The only person who are allowed to be rude is me, the grumpy cat! So, grumps for all.... for free. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxCD Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, DustFireSky said: Have you ever read a multiplayer forum from a first person shooter or the comments underneath a news article? It seems not. Or he has, so he knows how things could go wrong, and because he likes ONI and what could bring its community, that he's afraid of this forum to turn mad. And by the way: the only person who are allowed to be silly is me, the silly llama ! So, foolishness for all.... for free ! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGCat Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Just now, OxCD said: Or he has, so he knows how things could go wrong, and because he likes ONI and what could bring its community, that he's afraid of this forum to turn mad. It is maybe correct, that some people here seem to be a little arrogant. Yes, but you don't have to marry them, so no problem, so far. And mad is relative. In comparison with other forums, this is the queens Elizabeth forum! Purr. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzium Posted July 11, 2019 Author Share Posted July 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, OxCD said: Or he has, so he knows how things could go wrong, and because he likes ONI and what could bring its community, that he's afraid of this forum to turn mad. I was about to write exactly the same thing. Thanks! I just noticed a big difference for about 2 to 3 weeks now on the forums, would be nice if it can be prevented. 18 minutes ago, DustFireSky said: And by the way: The only person who are allowed to be rude is me, the grumpy cat! So, grumps for all.... for free. I can't compete with that argument... How do I apply for such rights? 2 minutes ago, DustFireSky said: It is maybe correct, that some people here seem to be a little arrogant. Yes, but you don't have to marry them, so no problem, so far. And mad is relative. In comparison with other forums, this is the queens Elizabeth forum! Purr. And that's what I like about it Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGCat Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Enzium said: I can't compete with that argument... How do I apply for such rights? You need at first a fur. Then two pointed ears and some whiskers. But last but not least: "U need the grumpy face!" Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxCD Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, DustFireSky said: It is maybe correct, that some people here seem to be a little arrogant. Yes, but you don't have to marry them, so no problem, so far. And mad is relative. In comparison with other forums, this is the queens Elizabeth forum! Purr. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 20 minutes ago, Enzium said: Also this community is a completely different environment than a thesis defense or a work environment. Sure. I merely used that as an example that a growing number of people really have lost all perspective in insisting on everybody must be "nice" all the time. You cannot really tell somebody they are wrong in a nice fashion. The "being wrong" part is integral and inherently not nice. In that defense, I probably should have asked "nicely" whether they wanted to revise that claim and then just have failed them, because obviously they would not have done so. Of course, failing somebody in any type of examination is not "nice" either. It is just necessary on occasion. Hence how can you deal with somebody that is insisting on their opinion, no matter what, gives bogus arguments and then has the audacity to tell you that _your_ complaints are invalid, that you _should_ enjoy the game with the changes _they_ like and that misrepresent your statements time and again to further their agenda? (Here usually by claiming you want the old situation back, and they do that even when you have stated that this is not the case and even explained that is some detail.) You basically have two options: You can call them on it. This cannot be done in a "nice" fashion. It will do nothing for them, as they typically do not even listen. They certainly do not respect your view of things anyways. This you do for the others and for Klei, so maybe you can get heard as well and your input is not just disregarded. Or you can just leave and give up. If this whole thing is about something you care about, then you lose big-time this way. 11 minutes ago, Enzium said: I was about to write exactly the same thing. Thanks! I just noticed a big difference for about 2 to 3 weeks now on the forums, would be nice if it can be prevented. Klei has changed a lot of things and one faction cheered for this extremely and tried to squash anybody that said they did not like some part of the direction of these changes. And there are quite a few people that do not. Obviously this very aggressive behavior produces a counter-reaction. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzium Posted July 11, 2019 Author Share Posted July 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, Gurgel said: Sure. I merely used that as an example that a growing number of people really have lost all perspective in insisting on everybody must be "nice" all the time. You cannot really tell somebody they are wrong in a nice fashion. The "being wrong" part is integral and inherently not nice. In that defense, I probably should have asked "nicely" whether they wanted to revise that claim and then just have failed them, because obviously they would not have done so. Of course, failing somebody in any type of examination is not "nice" either. It is just necessary on occasion. It depends on how you interpret “nice”. If you correct someone who is wrong there are multiple ways to do it. You can correct them with arguments based on facts and do it properly and firm while still being respectful or you can belittle them, make fun of their stupidity while pointing out their mistake. I will describe the first option as “nice”, and the second one I want to prevent from happening. As long as people don’t feel insulted (I must admit, that’s hard nowadays) so let me rephrase that: “If you never intend to insult people”, it’s all good. Nothing wrong with a good discussion. I also love reading them, as long as it stays respectful. I know this topic probably wont achieve anything, but it’s not causing any harm either. If someone gets into a frustrating argument and suddenly remembers reading this post, my goal is achieved. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, Enzium said: You can correct them with arguments based on facts and do it properly and firm while still being respectful In theory. But what do you do if they use counter-arguments that are factually wrong? Or state their opinions as obvious truth and accept no other view? Ever argued with an anti-vaxxer or a flat-earther (or any fanatic, really)? There is no winning, they deeply believe they have the truth and any argument you can have with them is about them pushing their view, because they know they are right. Hence they do not actually listen to anything you say except as something to use against you. Now, we do not have this extreme level here, but the stance some people use is basically the same. It is exceptionally disrespectful. A statement, simple or complex, of "I do not like these changes" needs to be respected, not stomped on. What somebody likes or does not like is an individual choice and nobody else has a right to argue about that. So, how do you react when somebody does it to you? Is there any "respectful" option left after they have so massively disrespected you? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108704-can-we-all-be-a-bit-nicer-to-each-other/#findComment-1223754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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