Can we stop using germy water for shower and hand washing?

[Glassyfo]

Just now, DaveSatx said:

thats a building project     since it removes the germs from the dupes and puts it in the polluted water it does indeed classify as a crude germ removal building.

He's referring to water though, not the dupes.

[QuQuasar]

Can we clarify what is being suggested in this thread? The people arguing against this suggestion are frequently phrasing their arguments as if what is being proposed is that germs should prevent water from being used to wash hands.

 

I assumed that what was being proposed was that washing hands would eliminate all existing surface germs from the duplicant, then deposit a percentage of the germs in the water back onto the duplicant. Thus, washing hands with germy water after using the lavatory would reduce but not eliminate the chance of food poisoning. Thus it would be to your benefit to eliminate germs from your washroom loop, but not essential.

 

Personally, I could take it or leave it. I'm currently using a washroom loop, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over having to build a sterilizer to deal with the sewer water, and may do that regardless as a fun project, once I have other things set up.

[Gurgel]

23 minutes ago, bleeter6 said:

Isn't the argument that if dupes wash with dirty water the action should be useless? That is totally true in real life.

First, "dirty" can mean several things. Second, it is not true in real life. It very much depends on the specific types of germs, the concentration and whether you use soap or not. 

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, Gurgel said:

First, "dirty" can mean several things. Second, it is not true in real life. It very much depends on the specific types of germs, the concentration and whether you use soap or not. 

Food poisoning. We're all talking about food poisoning.

That's the only germ you get in polluted water.

And second, YES IT IS TRUE IN REAL LIFE. This is how cholera wrecked London up on multiple occasions.

[Gurgel]

1 minute ago, watermelen671 said:

Food poisoning. We're all talking about food poisoning.

That's the only germ you get in polluted water.

We are talking about real life also. There is no single or simple "food poisoning germ" in actual reality. 

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, Gurgel said:

We are talking about real life also. There is no single or simple "food poisoning germ" in actual reality. 

Well, based off of the symptoms and the way it's transmitted, only one IRL food poisoning germ really fits, and that the Norovirus.

And hey didly ho, what do you know, you contract it by touching contaminated surfaces and then putting your unwashed hands in your mouth.

And now we're back to square one.

1. Norovirus germs are deposited into the water when duplicants use the bathroom
2. You then take that water, purify it, it still has those norovirus germs in it
3. Feed it back into the bathroom system
4. Water contaminated with norovirus should cause norovirus germs to be added onto the duplicants
5. Dupes will then go eat food, with hands contaminated with norovirus
6. Wahey, now they're sick with food poisoning

That's how it should be, but steps 4-6 don't exist.

[Gurgel]

Just now, watermelen671 said:

Well, based off of the symptoms and the way it's transmitted, only one IRL food poisoning germ really fits, and that the Norovirus.

And here I stop answering, because you obviously have no interest in any kind of discussion. You just want to push your point of view, no matter how far you have to bend actual facts. 

[Glassyfo]

23 minutes ago, QuQuasar said:

Personally, I could take it or leave it. I'm currently using a washroom loop, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over having to build a sterilizer to deal with the sewer water, and may do that regardless as a fun project, once I have other things set up.

What do you do with the extra water from toilets? Personally I disinfect it in chlorine, so this proposed change would have no effect on my saves.

2 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

And here I stop answering

Good.

[BaloneyOs]

What if washing with non-germy water gave a bonus to immunity? It'll give you a relatively tech-heavy but design-fueling means of fighting disease, and (at least for chlorine room methods) scales up extremely well. Hand sanitizers should arguably do this as well because of having to deal with bleach stone in general.

[QuQuasar]

5 minutes ago, bleeter6 said:

What do you do with the extra water from toilets? Personally I disinfect it in chlorine, so this proposed change would have no effect on my saves.

Good.

I let it build up in a reservoir just outside my base, which I use as a heat sink once I get an aquatuner. My dupes love the smell of warm piss in the morning.

[Gurgel]

9 minutes ago, bleeter6 said:

Good.

And spotted the troll. 

[watermelen671]

16 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

And here I stop answering, because you obviously have no interest in any kind of discussion. You just want to push your point of view, no matter how far you have to bend actual facts. 

Where is your evidence to back up your claim? You do nothing to support your claims, meanwhile I'm the one actually providing and explaining my reasoning, meanwhile you just say "no".

This is an entirely one-sided debate, and you're pretending to back down because I'm the one being irrational?

Here are the facts, Norovirus is a germ that causes the following symptoms in people who come into contact with it:

• nausea
• vomiting
• diarrhea
• stomach cramps

And what do dupes who get sick with food poisoning do?

The only reason first world countries don't have contaminated water is because we sterilize it with chlorine first. A process called water chlorination. ONI doesn't do that, hence why this should be a thing.

4 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

[irony]

Spoiler

Also, I remembered that at one point on one of the earlier the dev streams they had gone on the record saying that they didn't want to do this because of what I had said initially, which was:

2 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

It's hard to create a contradictory system wherein a building specifically designed to remove germs would have to add more germs onto the duplicant. 

This is because building a station to remove germs only to then have it do the exact opposite of it's job would confuse new players even more than the alternative.

 

[chromiumboy]

I actually made a mod prototype a few weeks ago that was suppose to address the use of germy water in showers and sinks (i.e. dupes washing in infected water retained, or gained, germs). There's no extra overhead on the sim. However, I didn't persue the experiment very far because if water is dumped into a tile, there's a max number of germs the tile can support. If a tile is filled with 1000 kg of water, dupes showering in said water are only exposed to 1/1000th of the germs in the source water each second, and the shower removes a huge amount of germs. So unless the water was ridiculously infected (multiple millions of germs), dupes ended up with a few measly surface germs after their shower. Sinks worked the same way. While closed looped systems might be problematic for players, it didn't seem worth pursuing if there was an easy way to get around the problem without disinfecting their water, or if the cleaning system needed a huge amount of rebalancing on my part 

[watermelen671]

8 minutes ago, BaloneyOs said:

What if washing with non-germy water gave a bonus to immunity? It'll give you a relatively tech-heavy but design-fueling means of fighting disease, and (at least for chlorine room methods) scales up extremely well. Hand sanitizers should arguably do this as well because of having to deal with bleach stone in general.

Now that's a really freaking good idea.

It's like my go-to comparison...which I will quote because I'm too lazy to type it out again.

On 7/7/2019 at 11:44 PM, watermelen671 said:

Think WoW's Rested XP.

It was originally presented as a negative incentive to take breaks, in which your XP is halved after playing for a certain amount of time. Needless to say players hated it.

So what they did instead was present it to the players that for a certain amount of time you would have double XP, or Rested XP, and after a certain amount of time it would return to "normal".

Funny thing is, they literally changed nothing. All that changed was how the players perceived it. 

You made what would be a negative change into a positive one, and for that I applaud you.

[Ellilea]

I was always more surprised about the innocence of chlorine gas. When I first played ONI and saw the caustic biome for the first time, I was 100% sure unleashing the chlorine on my dupes would have disastrous effects.

https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/chlorine/basics/facts.asp

[Glassyfo]

2 minutes ago, Ellilea said:

I was always more surprised about the innocence of chlorine gas. When I first played ONI and saw the caustic biome for the first time, I was 100% sure unleashing the chlorine on my dupes would have disastrous effects.

https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/chlorine/basics/facts.asp

I seem to remember someone found reference to 'toxicity' in the game files.

[watermelen671]

2 minutes ago, Ellilea said:

I was always more surprised about the innocence of chlorine gas. When I first played ONI and saw the caustic biome for the first time, I was 100% sure unleashing the chlorine on my dupes would have disastrous effects.

https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/chlorine/basics/facts.asp

Well, I mean 100% oxygen is SUPER toxic, so it's safe to assume that ONI is basically the antithesis of DS.

Wherein DS everything wants to kill you, in ONI most things...don't. 

1 minute ago, bleeter6 said:

I seem to remember someone found reference to 'toxicity' in the game files.

I think that's something in the files that was also explicitly tagged as "DO NOT TRANSLATE".

[lunazone]

 

19 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

And what do dupes who get sick with food poisoning do?

Sadly food poisoning doesn't make dupes vomit anymore, it just makes them nauseous, which is kind of weird since it makes food poisoning just a mild debuff that lasts like two minutes.

It might as well not exist

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, Squeegee said:

Sadly food poisoning doesn't make dupes vomit anymore, it just makes them nauseous, which is kind of weird since it makes food poisoning just a mild debuff that lasts like two minutes.

It might as well not exist

Oh dang how much have I missed?

[lunazone]

 

 

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Quote

And here I stop answering, because you obviously have no interest in any kind of discussion. You just want to push your point of view, no matter how far you have to bend actual facts. 

I don't want to sound rude or mean-spirited, but that's usually what constructive arguments are. It's good to have your own opinion and to discuss it with others, that's what this forum is for. However, from what I can see, watermelen has been bringing up actual evidence to back their ideas, and while it's totally okay to disagree with them, it's kind of rude to insult them for pursuing their point of view in the debate.

I didn't quote him directly to respect his wishes of no longer wanting to participate in this discussion.

[Gurgel]

Who said I do not want to participate in the discussion? I said I will stop to answer to watermelen671.

The claim that it has to be obviously the Norovirus is just so far removed from actual reality that it does not make any sense to listen or talk to him. Also, since when does bending of facts (i.e. misrepresentation) create constructive arguments? 

[lunazone]

4 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

 

Who said I do not want to participate in the discussion? I said I will stop to answer to watermelen671.

 

Ah sorry about that, I misunderstood the post

[Ambaire]

4 hours ago, raptor42 said:

The way I decided to think of it was impurities vs. germs -- urine is definitely far from water, but technically sterile. Or you could have still-water that is 99.9% H20 but has a ton of germs living in it. I'm curious to see what conclusions other people have come to though!

Actually, urine is not sterile at all. It's become known to medical professionals that the urinary tract is colonized by some friendly bacteria. UTIs are when other bacteria invade the place.

[gotnoface]

Well my headcanon for sink is that dupes are unsanitary creatures, mugging through goop and dirt and other substances every cycle, and so the "washing" doesn't come from the cleanliness of water, but instead becacuse of the high pressure jet of water that comes from the sink nozzles, which peels the layers of grime from their hands. Which is why it is also more effective than wash basin. Any small layer of germs that would remain due to using germy water, just doesn't matter .

Someone mentioned ethanol earlier. The idea of ethanol-soap sanitization... intrigues me.

Also @watermelen671, I played WoW back in the past and that argument about rested xp seems like a strawman to me. I recall that indeed they made the change to douple xp on rested, because players hated it. But they also didn't touch any xp that was needed to level up. So that means that the players weren't punished by half-the usual rate of leveling, but rather rewarded for resting by quicker leveling when they return. The devs DID change something, they didn't do nothing. They sped up the game significantly, especially for casual players, because of that change.

[camelot]

Don't allow "Food Poisoning" water to be used in sinks and latrines is quite too hard for new players at early game. I think some penalty like -1 morale for germy water or become infected and have +5% stress / vomiting once per cycle is okay