Wheeler shouldn’t have been buffed

[Toros]

I understand that the new branch is not the release build, but I’m incredibly disappointed by the buffs made to Wheeler.  It’s way, way too much and her balance point was much better before.

1) Lets address the elephant in the room first: the absurd damage that her ammo now does.  Stingers, rocks and other “high” ammo deals a ridiculous 100 damage, low ammo like grass tufts and flower petals deal 50 damage, and everything else does 75 damage.

Blowdarts which require reeds, azure feathers, and hounds teeth do 100 damage.  Boomerangs deal 27.2 damage.

Wheeler already could dodge tank bosses making her just as effective as Wortox is in DST at dodge tanking, and she now has no reason to do so thanks to her gun trivializing all bosses at range.

2) Her inventory slots were a unique and meaningful downside before, and balanced out her mobility, ranged attack potential, and ability to avoid damage.  Getting 15 slots means she has absolutely massive upsides and no downsides.

3) Speed boost buff was unnecessary, both the base speed boost and the bonus from empty inventory slots.  She starts at a 23% speed boost which is basically a cane.  Speed has notoriously been a difficult stat to balance in all games and I just don’t see why she always has a bonus at all.

 

Right now, Wheeler can destroy every boss in the game trivially easy thanks to the enormous ranged damage output of her gun, has absolutely no downside at all, and is one of the fastest characters in the game from day one.  If she stays as is she will 100% be S/S+ tier.

 

I’ve been very happy with the new design paradigm with Wormwood, Wilba 2.0, Wagstaff, and Wheeler’s first iteration but this is an enormous knee jerk over buff.  I’ve seen and debunked some of the “Wheeler is useless” posts from people on the forum, and it very much reminds me of the knee jerk rebalancing of Willow and Woodie for DST due to PvP concerns (lol) and the completely unnecessary nerf to Warly when the forums (incorrectly) called him OP.

It’s important that the devs understand that many of the loudest voices speaking on balance have no idea what is and what is not mechanically strong and felt that Wheeler was bad due to their own poor inventory management magnifying their perception of her downside.

The same voices who said she “wasn’t fun/useful” failed to test her navigadget to recognize how many ways it can be used to save time and effort.  Cheap ranged attacks have a lot of uses, and low ammo stunning birds had its own advantage before.

The community of players who have played for years (in my case, since the Don’t Starve beta) greatly prefer characters with potent upsides also have meaningful downsides.  We don’t want more Wx/Wicker/Wolfgang style survivors whose downsides if they ever exist become trivial, and love Wilba, Wormwood, Wagstaff (and Wortox) for having unique upsides and meaningful downsides.

They provide a different challenge that keeps the game fresh, not simply trivialize the content.

Klei, please consider reverting the Wheeler buffs (keeping the bugfixes) so she can again be unique and a fresh challenge.

[oCrapaCreeper]

3 minutes ago, Toros said:

Her inventory slots were a unique and meaningful downside before, and balanced out her mobility, ranged attack potential, and ability to avoid damage.

That doesn't change the fact the inventory slots were just awful and unfun to play with. Being fun should be prioritized which such things when it comes to singleplayer.

[Toros]

2 minutes ago, oCrapaCreeper said:

That doesn't change the fact it was awful to play with. Being fun should be prioritized which such things when it comes to singleplayer.

For people who are good at inventory management (aka don’t use a backpack 100% of the time) it really wasn’t “awful to play with” at all.

Yeah, you needed to make some choices and use base storage more, but you also were able to go straight to resources you actually needed instead of wandering and picking up things you don’t.

[JosePapp]

Her buffs were nice. She just needs lower Heath now.

Remember those "loud voices" were the ones who nerfed warly to the dirt.

[sinisterrkid]

I wanted a buff, but a much slighter one than she got. I was indeed raging in the update thread about 10 slots, but now I've calmed down. 

Would you be fine with her having very low health and her gun doing much less damage than it currently does?

[Toros]

2 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said:

I wanted a buff, but a much slighter one than she got. I was indeed raging in the update thread about 10 slots, but now I've calmed down. 

Would you be fine with her having very low health and her gun doing much less damage than it currently does?

I’m not saying that she couldn’t be tweaked or changed for quality of life reasons, but she didn’t need buffing overall at all.  If Klei determined that her lowered slots were too hard for new players to deal with, she could lose stats instead or perhaps get a penalty to backpack capacity instead of inventory capacity.

I do know for certain that these broadly useful massive buffs and no downside is too much.

[GiddyGuy]

16 minutes ago, Toros said:

2) Her inventory slots were a unique and meaningful downside before, and balanced out her mobility, ranged attack potential, and ability to avoid damage.  Getting 15 slots means she has absolutely massive upsides and no downsides.

But I mean...why would you play her when you could Wx-78 or Wolfgang who have really good mobility and combat/tanking abilities, I'm glad they gave her the normal amount of inventory space cause I wanted to play her since she looked cool, had a nice voice and her dodge ability seemed fun to play with but that small inventory was just absolutely horrible, I do hope they give her fair balance update such as maybe speed or health related.

5 minutes ago, JosePapp said:

Remember those "loud voices" were the ones who nerfed warly to the dirt.

This right here.

[sinisterrkid]

It's apparently impossible to hit the sweet spot with DS characters.

[Scrimbles]

Eh, with the exception of her passive 10% movement speed, nah, she's fine getting buffed.

She's not quite finished though, I really do hope she gets an additional appropriate downside, maybe giving her low health to compensate for her dodge...

Edit: oh god her dodge is even more OP and her gun is OP now. oh godddddddddddddd

[FreyaMaluk]

1 minute ago, Ogrecakes said:

Eh, with the exception of her passive 10% movement speed, nah, she's fine getting buffed.

 

I really do hope she gets an appropriate downside though, maybe giving her low health to compensate for her dodge...

 

15 minutes ago, JosePapp said:

Her buffs were nice. She just needs lower Heath now.

Remember those "loud voices" were the ones who nerfed warly to the dirt.

yeap.. totally agree... I think maybe around Wes health would be nice ... tactic dodges and more range attacks... sounds awesome!

[sinisterrkid]

21 minutes ago, JosePapp said:

Remember those "loud voices" were the ones who nerfed warly to the dirt.

What were Warly perks before he got nerfed?

[FreyaMaluk]

4 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said:

What were Warly perks before he got nerfed?

he didn't have the cooldown benefit from food.. it was fun

[Toros]

5 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said:

But I mean...why would you play her when you could Wx-78 or Wolfgang who have really good mobility and combat/tanking abilities, I'm glad they gave her the normal amount of inventory space cause I wanted to play her since she looked cool, had a nice voice and her dodge ability seemed fun to play with but that small inventory was just absolutely horrible, I do hope they give her fair balance update such as maybe speed or health related.

This right here.

Why play anyone but Wx, Wolfgang, Wicker ever?

Not everyone wants to play DS on easy mode.  Some people like characters offering different playstyles, strengths *and* weaknesses instead of trivializing the game.

The same sort of lack of understanding and frankly lack of experience that caused Warly to be overnerfed (which was largely driven by him starting with a backpack and crockpot) are causing people to undervalue Wheeler at low skill levels.

From an experienced perspective, Wheeler was never weak relative to most of the cast, and in the long term reduced inventory slots is a very mild downside.

I’m not saying that for new players Wheeler didn’t feel weak.  I think that she did, because they don’t have the timing to dodge tank to negate all boss damage or the inventory management to not be crippled by her reduced slots.

These things matter at low skill levels, but there are plenty of characters that aren’t clearly oriented toward more experienced players the way Wheeler is.

@Ogrecakes I don’t mean to be rude, but if you don’t understand that killing deerclops with 20 stingers at range while also being able to 0 damage facetank is OP, you’re part of why she got overbuffed.

These forums compared to the discord and the subreddit tend to have the lowest level discussions (least proportion of experienced players, least code-derived and mathematical analysis) and it gives Klei a lot of bad feedback.

It isn’t two different populations who called for Wheeler’s buffs and Warly’s nerf (which thankfully there seems to be consensus was a mistake).  It’s inexperienced players giving their honest feedback from the perspective of someone who is poor at inventory management and overvalues the gain or loss of slots.

Again, this isn’t meant to insult the perspective of new players at all, but I’ve been playing DS and DST since research points were a thing.  I don’t know how much time I’ve spent digging through the code, watching and practicing strats, and discussing mechanics with other experienced players.

But the consensus among the vet players to Wheeler’s latest buff has been confusion and concern, because we understand immediately how absurdly powerful she’s become with a variety of strategies.

[Theukon-dos]

IMO, she didn't need hard buffed like this, but she could definitely used a touch of tweaking.

 

I've said it before but instead of just giving her less inventory slots, they should have penelized her for wearing backpacks. in this scenario, 
 

-We keep her inventory management aspects

-She discourages wearing a backpack every 24/7 instead of encouraging it

-She's not locked out of the option of wearing a backpack if the extra slots are necessary

-doesn't punish her for existing

 

 

 

 

[Scrimbles]

6 minutes ago, Toros said:

These things matter at low skill levels, but there are plenty of characters that aren’t clearly oriented toward more experienced players the way Wheeler is.@Ogrecakes I don’t mean to be rude, but if you don’t understand that killing deerclops with 20 stingers at range while also being able to 0 damage facetank is OP, you’re part of why she got overbuffed.

Wait, hold up, what EXACTLY did they do to her Air Horn?

[-Variant]

1 hour ago, Ogrecakes said:

Wait, hold up, what EXACTLY did they do to her Air Horn?

Strong items do 100 damage, which are like, rocks and the like, while the least possible amount of damage you can do with the gun is 20.

So yes, 20 damage feathers and flowers are a thing.

[Theukon-dos]

1 minute ago, Ogrecakes said:

Wait, hold up, what EXACTLY did they do to her Air Horn?

They buffed the damage, At the low end it does more then the old air horn did max, and at best (which can be achived with Rocks and stinkers), it does just as much as the INSANELY more resource intensive blow darts.

[. . .]

2 minutes ago, Toros said:

killing deerclops with 20 stingers at range while also being able to 0 damage facetank is OP

The damage should probably be toned down, 1 rock dealing 100 damage may be excessive especially in Don't Starve which most mobs all have less health compared to Don't Starve Together.

In my opinion inventory management is not really fun... it just forces the player to make frustrating decisions over which item to keep over the other or even worse backtrack to some place on the map where you had to drop something.. I would have to agree with @oCrapaCreeper that fun should be prioritized when it comes to single player over balance.

[Toros]

8 minutes ago, Ogrecakes said:

Wait, hold up, what EXACTLY did they do to her Air Horn?

Instead of high/med/low damage dealing 37/34/17 damage it now deals 100/75/50 damage.

Yes, a grass tuft deals 50 damage from the gun.

7 minutes ago, Angel_Octoling said:

Strong items do 100 damage, which are like, rocks and the like, while the least possible amount of damage you can do with the gun is 20.

So yes, 20 damage feathers and flowers are a thing.

According to the code, it’s 50 damage flower petals

5 minutes ago, Warbucks said:

The damage should probably be toned down, 1 rock dealing 100 damage may be excessive especially in Don't Starve which most mobs all have less health compared to Don't Starve Together.

In my opinion inventory management is not really fun... it just forces the player to make frustrating decisions over which item to keep over the other or even worse backtrack to some place on the map where you had to drop something.. I would have to agree with @oCrapaCreeper that fun should be prioritized when it comes to single player over balance.

If the concern is fun, there are other levers they can shift to give a different downside.

Massive, unnecessary buffs and no downside is why I made this post.

[Scrimbles]

Christ, okay I just assumed they would have buffed up the lower end of her Air Horn slightly, not this...

 

So now shes got an OP gun, and OP dodge, and an OP no catch passive movement speed increase.

God damn.

 

I like her compass, I'm okay with her reduced inventory, but now I just can't play her because shes over powered... and that sucks.

[. . .]

Just now, Toros said:

If the concern is fun, there are other levers they can shift to give a different downside.

Massive, unnecessary buffs and no downside is why I made this post.

In my opinion a downside which I think would fit well which I have stated multiple times across the forums by now is equippables being given weight values and based on weight value slow her down and potentially even reduce the distance she can move with her dodge, the ability to double dodge, or even dodge at all. I think that would be con which would make her balanced with all the recent changes (excluding the OP gun).

Though, yes I don't know what Klei was thinking when they put her gun on steroids lol

[sinisterrkid]

14 minutes ago, Toros said:

These forums compared to the discord and the subreddit tend to have the lowest level discussions (least proportion of experienced players, least code-derived and mathematical analysis) and it gives Klei a lot of bad feedback.

 

Mate, I don't know which subreddit you've been reading.

[FreyaMaluk]

Just now, Warbucks said:

In my opinion a downside which I think would fit well which I have stated multiple times across the forums by now is equippables being given weight values and based on weight value slow her down and potentially even reduce the distance she can move with her dodge, the ability to double dodge, or even dodge at all. I think that would be con which would make her balanced with all the recent changes (excluding the OP gun).

Though, yes I don't know what Klei was thinking when they put her gun on steroids lol

I personally don't want to have her dodge change.. it's pretty fun at it is...

lower health can be a much better downside to make her range attack relevant... she has no reason to use melee weapons anymore

I like that

[. . .]

5 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I personally don't want to have her dodge change.. it's pretty fun at it is...

Well yeah me too, what I suggest is like she can't dodge if she's wearing something extremely heavy like marble or tin armor. She would still be able to dodge while wearing most things.. Actually yeah, I think her dodge is perfect now and shouldn't be touched.

For real if she just got slowed down by what equipment she's wearing and her gun isn't soo powerful and her stats were made a kinda lower then she's perfectly balanced in my opinion.

 

Because I do think dealing 100 damage with a stinger or rock is excessive, the person in charge of this buff probably thought Wheeler was in DST or something with all those health sponge raid bosses lol.

[Toros]

14 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I personally don't want to have her dodge change.. it's pretty fun at it is...

lower health can be a much better downside to make her range attack relevant... she has no reason to use melee weapons anymore

I like that

I haven’t suggested any changes to her dodge, so I’m a bit puzzled why you’d say that.

No kidding she has no reason to use melee weapons when she can either use a spear 30 times to kill a quacken or shoot 10 rocks at it.

11 minutes ago, Warbucks said:

Well yeah me too, what I suggest is like she can't dodge if she's wearing something extremely heavy like marble or tin armor. She would still be able to dodge while wearing most things.. Actually yeah, I think her dodge is perfect now and shouldn't be touched.

For real if she just got slowed down by what equipment she's wearing and her gun isn't soo powerful and her stats were made a kinda lower then she's perfectly balanced in my opinion.

 

Because I do think dealing 100 damage with a stinger or rock is excessive, the person in charge of this buff probably thought Wheeler was in DST or something with all those health sponge raid bosses lol.

Lower stats, equipment disabling dodge, lower damage on her gun would be a reasonable way to get her back to a balanced point.

There’s lots of ways she could’ve been changed without lowering inventory slots.

I’m happy that people seem to be realizing just how crazy huge these buffs were.