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reverentsatyr    2,266

Maxwell probably won't be touched for a while, but how would you guys want to see him reworked? I really want to see the sword minions actually good during a fight, but I haven't really thought of anything else.

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Honestly I like him as he is, but his log chopping ability needs to be nerfed, not because it's overpowered, but because it makes Woody useless.  If that were to be changed though, I wonder how he would be buffed...  Shadow duelists would be good, but not enough.

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FreyaMaluk    4,952
1 hour ago, Unn0ticedShadow said:

Honestly I like him as he is, but his log chopping ability needs to be nerfed, not because it's overpowered, but because it makes Woody useless.  If that were to be changed though, I wonder how he would be buffed...  Shadow duelists would be good, but not enough.

OR Woodie could be reworked to be massively better than he is rn!

I like that we got options for gathering resources with different characters :) 

Nerfing Max is not gonna make Woodie better per se.

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ShadowDuelist    3,661

Oh boy, it is the time of the day where i defend my kind, here I go:

Let shadowduelist wear helmets, and helmets only give half of the protection value they give in players. Eg: football helms 40%, Beequeen helm 35%, thul crown 45%, etc.The helmets on them work exactly like they would on a pig: have durability and break. So if you want them protected you have to keep making helmets, which balances out having durable puppets.

I think that is all the fixing he needs, Max is mostly a well rounded and popular character...

Other than that, to make the update flashy enough, maybe a couple of new types of shadow puppets would be cool, or something different new. 

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FreyaMaluk    4,952
50 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Oh boy, it is the time of the day where i defend my kind, here I go:

Let shadowduelist wear helmets, and helmets only give half of the protection value they give in players. Eg: football helms 40%, Beequeen helm 35%, thul crown 45%, etc.The helmets on them work exactly like they would on a pig: have durability and break. So if you want them protected you have to keep making helmets, which balances out having durable puppets.

I think that is all the fixing he needs, Max is mostly a well rounded and popular character...

Other than that, to make the update flashy enough, maybe a couple of new types of shadow puppets would be cool, or something different new. 

I don't see why they couldn't use helmets on normal durability... Max is pretty squishy and I think he relies hard on transferring aggro for survival.. so why not really. Only think they shouldn't be able to use is thulecite crowns... cuz 4 invincible minions OP

and the cost in NF should increase for balance as well... I think probs 4-6 nightmare fuel

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Nolgore    63

More Codex Umbra things, for sure.

Nightmare Crown: Drains sanity, costs fuel, 80% armor value but low durability

Split his minions into 2 tiers

Tier 1 (Diggers, Miners, Choppers): Cheap, last limited time, mimic like singleplayer rather than auto-chop. Good for early game resource jump, but not massing anything.

Tier 1 Duelist: Same as now

Tier 2 Workers: Cost more fuel, but similar as what we have now. Maybe make them a bit slower

Tier 2 Duelist: Cost 10 max health, 1 Nightmare Crown, and X nightmare fuel: same stats as tier 1, but has armor from nightmare helmet

Duelists should be able to fight nightmare creatures due their nightmare fuel origin. Maxwell sat on the Nightmare Throne, not the Log Throne. He should specialize in dealing with the shadows. He can still be good at resource gathering, just better at dealing with THEM.

Edit: Also, maybe make shadow creatures spawn in greater numbers around him, as THEY are trying to put him down, which might help make the duelist combat assistance a little less OP.

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Stonetribe    471

Do you guys think that it would be too strong if summoning a shadow puppet didn't require a corresponding tool/spear? They'd still be locked into a specific task and it's not like Flint gear is very hard to obtain to begin with. It always just felt really awkward to me for some reason. Also, I'm definitely down with the dualists getting a buff of some sort.

Oh and can I just say how much I love this sudden influx of character revamp discussions? :wilson_smile:

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How in the world could Woodie be made to be better at log chopping than Maxwell?  For that kind of power to be a thing he would either need ridiculous chopping speed and/or AoE chopping abilities, which would be both crazy and make him too comparable to Maxwell, something almost never good from a balance perspective.  While Maxwell does not really need a rework, if Woodie is going to be a decent character, he will need to be changed.

(Stonetribe, I too love this discussion influx, I may make a post about balancing Wickerbottom, but there are simply so many posts out right now!)

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ShadowDuelist    3,661
3 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I don't see why they couldn't use helmets on normal durability...

This is for balance purposes given to tests I've made on a mod that did something very similar. In theory, just like you mention, it doesn't sound so bad, but in practice its just too OP. Rezecib's mod originally allowed his duelists get full damage protection from helmets (80%), and even with a largely reduced regeneration, they would never die. like ever... 

Duelists with 80% protection could tank depth worms on their own, while you handled other things (True story: I was cooking, they handled 3 depth worms, I never moved, it was quite funny...). The thing is that with an 80% armor, even with a slower regeneration, the time they take kiting lets them regenerate to full HP.

Rezecib since then lowered it in his mod to just 25% protection from helmets, with no durability, and a slow regeneration. it makes them resistant but not that much and you have to take care of them a lot still. So I suggest a bit more, half of the original, but with durability, and keeping a faster regeneration, barely slower to what it is now. Less babysitting but minding the fact that if they take too many punches the helmet breaks and they die.

The idea (to my point of view) is that duelists should add DPS to maxwell in all fights, and be able to take a few punches, but you shouldn't just let them carelessly handle things or tank for you. Currently, vanilla duelists can technically add DPS, but the problem is that even a faint breeze kills them, which defeats the purpose of using them entirely since you wasted fuel on a thing that probably was able to land 1 or 2 hits and died. So all they need is a change that lets them live long enough to deal damage for a while.

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I think Maxy's minions should gradually consume nightmare fuel or something over time, so they're not that hyper-efficent at chopping trees and the like.

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FreyaMaluk    4,952
1 hour ago, Loopy Ouroboros said:

I think Maxy's minions should gradually consume nightmare fuel or something over time, so they're not that hyper-efficent at chopping trees and the like.

Tbh I don't agree with the idea of nerfing max to elevate woodie.. 

Max gameplay style is about conjuring minions and if we take that way then he is just the 75 HP guy with a useless book. 

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4 Da LOLs    2,201

what if the duelists were like the ones in the forge?

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Sinister_Fang    8,134

Maxwell discussion time! Yay! It's been a while.

Now, I think we could all agree that his workers are mostly fine as is. The only changes I'd like for them is a way to switch between an automatic mode (like they are now) and a "command" mode. By that, I mean they won't automatically work, but Maxwell will have a prompt to mine/dig/chop even without the correct tool equipped. Doing so would cause the shadows to interact with the specific object you selected instead of you (Maxwell would still join in with the puppets if he has the correct tool equipped as well). I feel like this will cause a lot less damage to bases that like to incorporate things like trees and marble shrubs into their decor (this is the main reason I typically don't use marble shrubs as decorations, even though I would very much like to). This would also allow you to dig up things like grass tufts, berry bushes, ect. with the digger.

Now, onto the duelists. Firstly, they should not automatically attack anything trying to attack Maxwell. Triggering an entire spider nest doesn't seem like a good way to protect your master does it? They should only enter combat when Maxwell himself does. This would also give control over what you want your shadows to target as they would only attack after you gave the command.

Secondly, they shouldn't pull agro from enemies and instead enemies would focus on Maxwell himself. Not only would this give the duelists added protection, it means Maxwell wouldn't be able to rely on them entirely for protection in a similar way Wendy does with Abigail.

And finally, you should be able to equip them with weapons and armor. Equipment with any sanity changes (Such as top hats, dark swords, night armor, ect.) would have an aura effect around the duelist. This would simultaneously give them utility with sanity recovering apparel, and give some cost for equipping them with things like night armor or dark swords. When left without a weapon, they would default to using a shadow spear with equal damage to a normal spear, but infinite durability (kinda like how they work right now, but it's mostly a visual change so you can tell if their weapon you gave them broke).

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sinisterrkid    352
15 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

maybe a couple of new types of shadow puppets would be cool, or something different new. 

What about pooping minions? We could use some poop

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ShadowDuelist    3,661
Just now, sinisterrkid said:

What about pooping minions? We could use some poop

Shadow Mime: it pretends to work but doesn't really do anything useful

Shadow Alarm: if bearger puts you to sleep this shadow will punch your face

Shadow Monkey: besides generating one poop a day, it will throw poop at enemies randomly.

Shadow Chefmaster: it will yell random phrases at you while you use the crockpot, with wigfrids sound effect. It doesnt really cook on its own.

Shadow Vegan: it will punch you 3 times a day if you carry meat. Bunnymen will gift this shadow carrots though.

Yes, the possibilities are endless indeed...

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4 Da LOLs    2,201
1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Shadow Chefmaster: it will yell random phrases at you while you use the crockpot, with wigfrids sound effect. It doesnt really cook on its own.

GORDAN MAXY

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x0VERSUS1y    3,358
1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Shadow Monkey: besides generating one poop a day..

..and throw it at Maxwell, the "I made you a ..pie, masta!" style ;)

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__IvoCZE__    5,890
1 hour ago, BadScra said:

Keep 75 max health, please. I'm agreed to sword minion need buff.

It shouldn't honestly be changed for both balance and lore reasons ( you know, max has heart problems )

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Maximum101    130

I've been looking at Pikmin for a while now and here's a list of the things I think WOULD/WOULDN'T benefit Maxwell more as a leader:

  • Something that fits in with the game, but allows you to get the duelists to stop attacking, immediately (Like stopping them from aggroing random things by accident without having to walk a screen away)(https://www.pikminwiki.com/Whistle)
  • Some type of group moving that fits well into the game, and helps with certain tasks (https://www.pikminwiki.com/Group_move).
  • A slightly bigger number of workers and/or duelists (Probably not the duelists).
  • The ability to dismiss them? (Probably not)(https://www.pikminwiki.com/Dismiss)

Mainly, I want some way to control their movement/what they're doing more as well as a bit of a buff to keep them alive longer.

AGAIN, THIS IS A OPINION AND ISN'T EXACTLY WHAT I THINK WOULD BENEFIT MAXWELL!

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NoscopeFelix    1,748
7 minutes ago, Maximum101 said:

I've been looking at Pikmin for a while now and here's a list of the things I think WOULD/WOULDN'T benefit Maxwell more as a leader:

  • Something that fits in with the game, but allows you to get the duelists to stop attacking, immediately (Like stopping them from aggroing random things by accident without having to walk a screen away)(https://www.pikminwiki.com/Whistle)
  • Some type of group moving that fits well into the game, and helps with certain tasks (https://www.pikminwiki.com/Group_move).
  • A slightly bigger number of workers and/or duelists (Probably not the duelists).
  • The ability to dismiss them? (Probably not)(https://www.pikminwiki.com/Dismiss)

Mainly, I want some way to control their movement/what they're doing more as well as a bit of a buff to keep them alive longer.

AGAIN, THIS IS A OPINION AND ISN'T EXACTLY WHAT I THINK WOULD BENEFIT MAXWELL!

Yeah it would be nice if you had to tell your shadow minions what to do and stuff like this , so you feel like your im control. Also being able to tell diggers to dig up certain stuff for example like berry bushes or rabbit holes. I don’t ant maxwell to get stronger (well i don’t really care if he does) I just want him more fun to play with the new rework.

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Stonetribe    471
25 minutes ago, Maximum101 said:

I've been looking at Pikmin for a while now and here's a list of the things I think WOULD/WOULDN'T benefit Maxwell more as a leader:

  • Something that fits in with the game, but allows you to get the duelists to stop attacking, immediately (Like stopping them from aggroing random things by accident without having to walk a screen away)(https://www.pikminwiki.com/Whistle)
  • Some type of group moving that fits well into the game, and helps with certain tasks (https://www.pikminwiki.com/Group_move).
  • A slightly bigger number of workers and/or duelists (Probably not the duelists).
  • The ability to dismiss them? (Probably not)(https://www.pikminwiki.com/Dismiss)

Mainly, I want some way to control their movement/what they're doing more as well as a bit of a buff to keep them alive longer.

AGAIN, THIS IS A OPINION AND ISN'T EXACTLY WHAT I THINK WOULD BENEFIT MAXWELL!

But god damn do I love me some Pikmin! :wilson_flower:

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