Machine Reaper Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 46 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said: I don't rely only on them... u can use Flytraps too.. and you can just run faster to loose aggro and attack them one by one... It's not about defense really, thematically makes no sense: Pigs rn are like this: During the day: Le's put fires out and make sure nothing burns, not even a camp fire At Dawn and Night: I don't care if I burn ****... Do you see the discrepancy? It doesn't make sense... Royal Pigs understand firerisk ... that's why they put them out during the day!! sees a thief whack me out of all my coins, comes in and starts picking up the coins declaring them as forfeit goods... FORTUNE SMILE 'PON ME! protects the citizens and the queen etc...hired with a 10 oinc contract and ordered to make pork chops of queen and mayor (who sold the contract) MINE SERVICE UNTO YOU! whack a guard on its head, offer 10 oincs. Forgets about everything. NEDTH MORE! also I've just discovered that you can knockout their torches out of their inventory thru Jungle Vines which will cause them to only use their Halberds during night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted March 31, 2019 Author Share Posted March 31, 2019 12 minutes ago, MWY said: sees a thief whack me out of all my coins, comes in and starts picking up the coins declaring them as forfeit goods... FORTUNE SMILE 'PON ME! protects the citizens and the queen etc...hired with a 10 oinc contract and ordered to make pork chops of queen and mayor (who sold the contract) MINE SERVICE UNTO YOU! whack a guard on its head, offer 10 oincs. Forgets about everything. NEDTH MORE! that's their personal flaw.. they are greedy.. one thing doesn't change another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine Reaper Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said: that's their personal flaw.. they are greedy.. one thing doesn't change another well technically we are paying the Mayor for hiring them which basically means the Government is leasing them to you. this basically means you don't even pay them to make them your lackey but their owners instead and with that you can order them to kill their owner which seems quite...corrupt.... (they won't chop trees nor pick grass but they will chop a pig or two) but overall in the end the thing is their penchant for setting things on fire whilst trying to "Protect/Guard" their city/citizens seems to be considered a reasonable mechanic because otherwise Guards on their own are very very hard for the player to kill. and besides that you have a LOT of ways to mitigate and avoid having them set fire to everything (Coin Magnetism, Executive Hammer etc) but if it is possible that they can be made to not do that and instead just remain armed with a Halberd 24/7 then that can work as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted March 31, 2019 Author Share Posted March 31, 2019 37 minutes ago, MWY said: well technically we are paying the Mayor for hiring them which basically means the Government is leasing them to you. this basically means you don't even pay them to make them your lackey but their owners instead and with that you can order them to kill their owner which seems quite...corrupt.... (they won't chop trees nor pick grass but they will chop a pig or two) but overall in the end the thing is their penchant for setting things on fire whilst trying to "Protect/Guard" their city/citizens seems to be considered a reasonable mechanic because otherwise Guards on their own are very very hard for the player to kill. and besides that you have a LOT of ways to mitigate and avoid having them set fire to everything (Coin Magnetism, Executive Hammer etc) but if it is possible that they can be made to not do that and instead just remain armed with a Halberd 24/7 then that can work as well. Dude,, sometime I think you just wanna disagree for the sake of disagreeing U didn't even touch on the fact that there is indeed a difference how they behave during the day and at night... and ofc doesn't make sense they burn stuff at night if they put fires out in the morning. what should change in the evening? They are fighters and protectors (sometimes by hire, again.. they are greeedy.. not pyros)... that doesn't change the fact just cuz they don't do menial work. IMO Guards aren't hard to kill for me tbh... it's just a very basic pattern of one hit run.. And... I said this before... Guards in towns have lanterns on the roads.. they don't need to carry a torch anyways... ergo.. they can keep their Halbert equipped... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine Reaper Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 26 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said: Dude,, sometime I think you just wanna disagree for the sake of disagreeing If giving a reason to their actions is disagreeing then I'm sorry about trying to be reasonable. as I already said this, if it is Possible to make them not hold torches during night then so be it. if not then I already gave you alternatives to dealing with them which by your understanding is disagreeing with you... the reason I even said they are morally corrupt is because I complained about guards burning my home down on another thread and someone gave me this statement and told me just to put a coin someplace they can't get and they will not set stuff on fire anymore due to being distracted. (during that time Executive Hammer wasn't implemented). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Variant Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 Why not just have guards keep their torches and put out natural fires/torch lit fires? They'll be way more useful this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rellimarual Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 Yes, you’re right, it doesn’t makes sense, but again, what would be the drawback to using guard pigs exclusively for defense against enemies if they did not do the torch thing? There needs to be a downside to that. (And personally, I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal that they’re not consistent in their behavior.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theukon-dos Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 6 hours ago, Rellimarual said: Yes, you’re right, it doesn’t makes sense, but again, what would be the drawback to using guard pigs exclusively for defense against enemies if they did not do the torch thing? There needs to be a downside to that. (And personally, I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal that they’re not consistent in their behavior.) The issue is that there are no other options against bat waves. you got the pig towers, but you're screwed if the bats attack at dusk you got Flytraps, but They don't respawn, seedlings eat the meat and pig skin, and will probably just end up attacking you And you got elephant cactus, Which is the only reliable option, but requires you to world hop to Shipwrecked. so yeah, you have to use guard towers, because those are the only reliable option without world hopping. That, or you end up with armies of Bats everywhere because you kept on running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 11 hours ago, Angel_Octoling said: Why not just have guards keep their torches and put out natural fires/torch lit fires? They'll be way more useful this way. They do that during the day lol Just fir some inexplicable (bad coding) reason... They forget about it at night 7 hours ago, Rellimarual said: Yes, you’re right, it doesn’t makes sense, but again, what would be the drawback to using guard pigs exclusively for defense against enemies if they did not do the torch thing? There needs to be a downside to that. (And personally, I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal that they’re not consistent in their behavior.) Have you guys played more than 50 days in Hamlet? The waves get insanely large and there really isn't another non aggressive way to deal with them without leaving Hamlet. You guys make it look like having guards working is a crutch but it's a totally legit and smart strategy cuz transferring aggro is one of many tactics for intelligent defense and not less valid than melee combat. And since you agree thematically there is a discrepancy I don't see why they should act like idiots burning s h i t. Ik about baiting them or destroying their towers. But then, don't these tactics defy their purpose and make them useless? Why something that is clearly contradictory and fixing it to become reliable needs to be considered less valid than direct melee? Specially when the waves become exponentially larger after day 40? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 On 3/30/2019 at 7:21 PM, Szczuku said: Torches should stay. If it was anything else it'd completely ruin the atmosphere of Hamlet. The only thing that devs should fix about this is the distance between the sawahna and guard towers. So that Royal Guards don't with with Weevoles every dusk. LOL... Then u actually admit they setting things on fire is a problem cuz while fighting random Weevoles they burn natural large grass patches... Why not just fixing the fact they burning things at night doesn't make any real sense beyond the argument of "there should be a downside" when they during the day do care and put fires out? Don't you see your argument is contradictory? If your complaint is about style then I'm sure Klei can come up with a much fitting and beautiful design than mine. I just rudimentarily merged both images together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szczuku Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said: they during the day do care and put fires out? They only put out campfires and firepits. They still do that durring night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Szczuku said: They only put out campfires and firepits. They still do that durring night this only means they understand fire risk.. doesn't subtract from the whole other rest of the argument cuz they have standing lanterns during the night. They could just have their Halberts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szczuku Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Just now, FreyaMaluk said: this only means they understand fire risk.. doesn't subtract from the whole other rest of the argument Nah. Guards should stay as they are. Klei, you should only make guard towers spawn further from grass biome. Don't "fix" an entity, fix the worldgen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 7 hours ago, Rellimarual said: Yes, you’re right, it doesn’t makes sense, but again, what would be the drawback to using guard pigs exclusively for defense against enemies if they did not do the torch thing? There needs to be a downside to that. (And personally, I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal that they’re not consistent in their behavior.) There is no real downside to using Rocklobsters. U don't even need to bait them.. just make the mobs aggro them... or Spiders and spider queens, Beefalo too unless u are in spring or in the first day of the next season but u can wear boof hat, frog rain in spring, u can even use pig or werepigs... werepigs attack all creatures in proximity... u just need to lure the dogs to them... so...that is not something new in the game and the "no drawbacks" argument doesn't really hold. the bat waves increase in numbers very fast past day 30 and the initial towers you have at base aren't enough to contain them even with Halberts anyways. If they were to become reliable you could set strategic outposts with guards around base and in the outside. This would obviously cost you materials that is more to say than the ridiculously high reproduction rate for rock lobsters that you need to do zero for. there is no other Hamlet structure you can build in the game at the moment to stop their attacks, cuz they are flying creatures and toothtraps don't work on them. 38 minutes ago, Szczuku said: Nah. Guards should stay as they are. Klei, you should only make guard towers spawn further from grass biome. Don't "fix" an entity, fix the worldgen And let's be completely honest. Do you guys use Guards at all atm except from fire farms to get items from them? Aren't they as they are atm kinda useless? But hey... what if the structure you could use was already there but got fixed and u could really use it now..? Would that make the game worse? No. It would make it more diverse... it's not like you stay at base the whole time... you are constantly on the move getting resources from other biomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandvichSpy Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 I don't even want to bother with guards at all because the risk of having them around is just way too high. I just want to build a happy little town filled with trees, fences, walls, farms, animals and whatnot without the risk of everything going up in flames the moment a hostile creature enters the area. If they were to hold lanterns during the night they would still be defenseless against enemies due to that pitiful lantern damage but without the risk of your entire base being set on fire. Maybe they should spawn holding torches but we could have the ability to hand them a different light source to use during nighttime such as lanterns, bottle lanterns and tar lamps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 Just now, SandvichSpy said: I don't even want to bother with guards at all because the risk of having them around is just way too high. I just want to build a happy little town filled with trees, fences, walls, farms, animals and whatnot without the risk of everything going up in flames the moment a hostile creature enters the area. If they were to hold lanterns during the night they would still be defenseless against enemies due to that pitiful lantern damage but without the risk of your entire base being set on fire. Maybe they should spawn holding torches but we could have the ability to hand them a different light source to use during nighttime such as lanterns, bottle lanterns and tar lamps. Exactly my point and tbh this is what people don't want to admit... Guards are useless now... they are the only structure Hamlet available to ALL characters that you could build to deal with bats. If there where to get fixed with either something liek a candle hat or something similar.. wouldn't you use them more for bat defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Variant Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 8 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said: They do that during the day lol Just fir some inexplicable (bad coding) reason... They forget about it at night You misunderstood. I didn't mean campfire. I mean actual fire, like, you set a building on fire, rather than letting it burn, they douse it. Same for if they burn stuff. Also in my world they put at fires no matter the time, odd, maybe it changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rellimarual Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 10 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said: Have you guys played more than 50 days in Hamlet? The waves get insanely large and there really isn't another non aggressive way to deal with them without leaving Hamlet. You guys make it look like having guards working is a crutch but it's a totally legit and smart strategy cuz transferring aggro is one of many tactics for intelligent defense and not less valid than melee combat I have a 150 day run as Wormwood and a 300 day run as Wig, but she doesn't really count because she can easily deal with them by hand. No one is reproaching anyone for using the guards. It is a totally legit strat, and I am all for people using mobs to defeat enemies. I use guards sometimes in the Wormwood run, and also snaptooths and spider monkeys. There is nothing wrong with it. But there aren't defenses against hound waves in DS that don't also have a drawback/risk/cost. Beefs go into heat (not just in spring), pigs go inside at dusk, werepigs and tentacles will also attack the player. That's a consistent pattern across all of the DLCs, and Hamlet is meant to be harder than ROG or SW. Do I care particularly if they still keep their torch thing? No. I'm just asking what sort of drawback you'd envision replacing the torch thing, since that's the only way it's going to be eliminated. They're just not going to provide an easy solution to bat waves that can be used at any time of the day from the very beginning of the run. So what do you propose as a replacement for the torch that would add a risk to relying on the guards? 10 hours ago, Theukon-dos said: you got the pig towers, but you're screwed if the bats attack at dusk Go inside: your shanty, a shop, the palace whatever. Don't come out until daytime. The bats will then spawn and the guards will kill them with halberds. This is the most obvious solution to the problem if for some reason you're building your base near guard towers. When I use them, I run to the towers away from my base. I don't care if those farms get burnt because I've already taken what I need from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkylordElberich Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Holy moly, Pig guards with torches is becoming the new Warbucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 18 minutes ago, Rellimarual said: I have a 150 day run as Wormwood and a 300 day run as Wig, but she doesn't really count because she can easily deal with them by hand. No one is reproaching anyone for using the guards. It is a totally legit strat, and I am all for people using mobs to defeat enemies. I use guards sometimes in the Wormwood run, and also snaptooths and spider monkeys. There is nothing wrong with it. But there aren't defenses against hound waves in DS that don't also have a drawback/risk/cost. Beefs go into heat (not just in spring), pigs go inside at dusk, werepigs and tentacles will also attack the player. That's a consistent pattern across all of the DLCs, and Hamlet is meant to be harder than ROG or SW. Do I care particularly if they still keep their torch thing? No. I'm just asking what sort of drawback you'd envision replacing the torch thing, since that's the only way it's going to be eliminated. They're just not going to provide an easy solution to bat waves that can be used at any time of the day from the very beginning of the run. So what do you propose as a replacement for the torch that would add a risk to relying on the guards? Go inside: your shanty, a shop, the palace whatever. Don't come out until daytime. The bats will then spawn and the guards will kill them with halberds. This is the most obvious solution to the problem if for some reason you're building your base near guard towers. When I use them, I run to the towers away from my base. I don't care if those farms get burnt because I've already taken what I need from them. the no drawback argument IMO isn't enough: - Rocklobsters are pretty much indestructible and u don't have to do anything and they have no drawbacks - Beefalo "heat" is negated by the beef hat.. which is fairly ez to get.. - If you have a bait for Pigs in the middle of their houses, they never go back home at dusk and night... even as werepigs ------------------- Again.. Ik how to deal with guards.. I'm not looking for advice how to deal with them... I've listed already at least 4 methods... I'm just pointing out that there is a weird discrepancy there in their behavior towards campfires and how they don't care to set things on fire with torches. ------------------------ I'm not building my base near guards---duh... I'm just pointing out it makes no sense they burn at dusk since they are the ONLY structure in Hamlet you can build to deal with them without world hopping and in the cities they really don't need lights cuz there are lanterns by the roads ----------------------- In RoG you can craft tooth traps for the waves but Hamlet doesn't have anything like it. ONLY Towers. Now are you gonna tell me you don't "rely" on tooth traps for hound waves? Really?? The way I see it they the Tooth Traps in Hamlet. It's not like you are gonna use the same 4 or 5 Towers forever cuz they are gonna get killed off in the first second.. Same as Tooth Traps you are gonna have to Increase their numbers And I never used Towers to really kill them off but for distraction to transfer aggro and kill them in small groups.. this can also be done by cheesing the bats using corners but why shouldn't we use some "reliable" methods? It's not like you are gonna stay at base forever.. Hamlet is a game that is design to be on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theukon-dos Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 6 hours ago, Rellimarual said: Go inside: your shanty, a shop, the palace whatever. Don't come out until daytime. The bats will then spawn and the guards will kill them with halberds. This is the most obvious solution to the problem if for some reason you're building your base near guard towers. When I use them, I run to the towers away from my base. I don't care if those farms get burnt because I've already taken what I need from them. Well if you can just wait the night out with no penalty, then what's the point of making the guards burn everything? and again, unlike RoG, there are no other options for dealing with the bat waves. If you don't world hop, then Pig guards are the only way to deal with the bat waves. Teeth traps don't work on them, rabid beetles are seasonal, snapteeth easally go extinct; eat your loot; and eat your ass, spider monkeys also try to eat your ass, and that's it. There are no other options for dealing with the bat waves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meruem1 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 8 hours ago, Rellimarual said: Go inside: your shanty, a shop, the palace whatever. Don't come out until daytime. The bats will then spawn and the guards will kill them with halberds. This is the most obvious solution to the problem if for some reason you're building your base near guard towers. When I use them, I run to the towers away from my base. I don't care if those farms get burnt because I've already taken what I need from them. Why waste time waiting all night in a building if the guards will finish off the bats with their halberd after I get out in the morning anyway? Making the game more boring like that, not difficult. That's not a solution to the problem, it's a boring work-around. So what if you rely on guards all the time? That's their job, to protect the citizens & if you are living in their city, you should be protected. "I will protect you, but burn everything you have alongside other citizens in the process." somehow makes more sense to you than what has been suggested in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szczuku Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 The only suggestion I can accept is removing torches from guards and having guard towers have torches instead. On 2019-03-30 at 7:30 PM, MWY said: Also instead of having touches, why not Guard Towers light up with Braziers of sort that have certain light distance which will limit the Guards patrol range? Royal will remain fully armed and guard within said Light distance. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted April 3, 2019 Author Share Posted April 3, 2019 42 minutes ago, Szczuku said: The only suggestion I can accept is removing torches from guards and having guard towers have torches instead. This I think that's a total cool idea... I hope klei could come up with something along those lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Da LOLs Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 i think this is a good place to put this because it refers to gaurds i recently had a bad Webber run it was foggy and bats had come forced out of any option i went to the village i couldn't remove the shamlets for the pigs would have killed me and i couldn't run away because the fog was holding me slow with the shamlets and the bats were too fast to hit and it was night so buildings were burning then unsurprisingly died i believe that their should be more ways to kill them i was thinking of a sky trap something like this so characters like Webber can have defense (apologies for my art skill) it would cost 1xboard 2xrope 4xstingers only be triggered by flying mobs one hits bats requires new rope per reset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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