Cool Steam Vents

[Mastada]

I've had this problem in back to back games. I have two cool steam vents. Both of them have almost the same qualities. One of them works fine. I set up an oxygen system on one and its been running fine for over 900 cycles. However the other one keeps producing steam and over pressurizing. It then appears to stop working and at the end of it's run I am left with very little water.

What causes one to produce steam that immediately condenses into water, and what causes the other to produce steam that stays around and causes the vent to over pressure? The biome? The overall temperature of the biome? Because again, both are very similar.

I built an air pump to pump out all of the other non gasses while dormant, yet it still does it.

I cleared a large area around the vent (roughly 18X18 room, much larger than the other one) and yet it still continues to be a problem with over-pressure.

I tried surrounding the room in normal tiles and then insulation tiles. No luck.

What are the common remedies to this? I needs ma wa-wa.

Thanks~

Beez

[Cypher-7]

My guess is if the gassed around the one vent reach over 5kg the vent will overpressure. If the steam coming out the vent isn’t cooled fast enough it won’t condense into water and you could even end up with 5k + steam causing a loss of water. Try putting temp shift plates behind the geyser and some method of cooling.

[Xyer]

Insulating the steam vent room actually makes its more likely for overpressure if you don't cool the steam.

You can vent your sieved toilet water into the vent room and it'll help drop the temperature and condense the steam. This also helps to kill the germs from the sieved water so win-win.

[Glassyfo]

Just look at the two under temp overlay and you'll see the heat spread. While your at it, screenshots are much more usefull here than walls of descriptions.

[The Plum Gate]

@Mastada, I have a water geyser that, after I analyzed, will be "active' for ~67 cycles ( doing it's whole on again off again eruptions ), then inactive for twice that long before it becomes active again. It stays dormant for a long time!

If you haven't analyzed them, the best time to do so is when they're dormant. You can use all the eruption statistics to determine what size room you need to hold the by products so that it doesn't reach max pressure or over pressurize.

[Nitroturtle]

I've shared this before on here, but this has been my go-to build for cool steam vents.  Works extremely well, and can also be used to feed a peppernut farm.  With the sieve, I set the temp sensor to 96C and for peppernuts 75C and I run radiant pipes in front of them to keep them the proper temp.  Pwater is supplied from any random pool available.  Room should be vacuumed out as well.  

Spoiler

 

[Gurgel]

6 hours ago, Xyer said:

Insulating the steam vent room actually makes its more likely for overpressure if you don't cool the steam.

From my experience, you need 1-2 ATENs to get full use of a Cool Steam Vent, equivalent (I think) to 8...16 WWs in Hydrogen. You also should do diamond temp-shift from the water to the 2nd tile of the vent to cool the steam fast. If the vent-area is at 99C or so, you hardly get any water. If you have 85C or so there, you get the max.

[tzionut]

I use 8 whezee and no problem until now. 

[Gurgel]

43 minutes ago, tzionut said:

I use 8 whezee and no problem until now. 

It depends on the volume of steam. With most, 1 ATEN or 8 WWs is plenty. Some high-volume Cold Steam Vents need more. I had one that produced 1200kg/cycle in my last game that did run into overpressure with just one ATEN but produced at peak with two.

[Sasza22]

I think the easiest way around it s to dig stuff around they geyser. If there is little room the steam will fill it quickly and overpressurize before it can disperse the heat. If you make more room for it it will have more time to cool down and condense. Eventually it`s better to use some cooling to ensure the steam condenses fast but early on digging around the geyser should help.

[Glassyfo]

8 hours ago, Nitroturtle said:

I've shared this before on here, but this has been my go-to build for cool steam vents.  Works extremely well, and can also be used to feed a peppernut farm.  With the sieve, I set the temp sensor to 96C and for peppernuts 75C and I run radiant pipes in front of them to keep them the proper temp.  Pwater is supplied from any random pool available.  Room should be vacuumed out as well.  

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My setup is similar to this except I use normal water. When the cooling water gets too hot I just pump it down into the geyser chamber.

[tzionut]

This is my setup. As i said... 8 whezze are enough. And i don't use the water as fast it come.

Spoiler

 

[beowulf2010]

2 hours ago, tzionut said:

This is my setup. As i said... 8 whezze are enough. And i don't use the water as fast it come.

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I do something similar, but rarely do you need more than 4-5 wheezeworts. 

[DevilmanUK]

Again as mentioned earlier by Gurgle... the amount of Wheezeworts needed depends on the output rate of the geyser (not its average) aswell as the size of the "tank" you have it enclosed in *and* the method in which you built it to cool the steam.  

Just arbitrarily saying "you only need 6 / 8 / (insert random number here) Wheezeworts is both factually incorrect and misleading.

 

[Mastada]

Thanks for the replies and the suggestions. It will surely make things better moving forward.

My biggest concern was that I was missing something obvious, and couldnt see the answer right in front of my face, and I am glad that doesnt appear to be the case. I have analysed both geysers, and both of them are almost exactly the same during eruption and dormancy. So I am still confused as to why one works fantastically while the other is stubborn. Perhaps just a couple degrees difference is all it takes. Of course, it only takes a few degrees difference to turn water into steam, but I was concerned it was something more obvious or a mechanic I just wasnt understanding about this great game.

I was my intention to be able to better identify the "good" vs the "bad" cool steam geysers in future playthroughs, to be better able to easily identify between the two, but I guess that isnt the case. In the end, it doesn't really matter, as there are many solutions to get the intended results.

Thanks for the feedback, and happy ONIing.

[Yunru]

A couple of degrees can make a massive difference, as it can be the difference between cooling down at all or slowly heating.

Of course it can also just be the difference between cooling down and cooling down slightly faster.

[KittenIsAGeek]

1 hour ago, Mastada said:

Thanks for the replies and the suggestions. It will surely make things better moving forward.

My biggest concern was that I was missing something obvious, and couldnt see the answer right in front of my face, and I am glad that doesnt appear to be the case. I have analysed both geysers, and both of them are almost exactly the same during eruption and dormancy. So I am still confused as to why one works fantastically while the other is stubborn. Perhaps just a couple degrees difference is all it takes. Of course, it only takes a few degrees difference to turn water into steam, but I was concerned it was something more obvious or a mechanic I just wasnt understanding about this great game.

I was my intention to be able to better identify the "good" vs the "bad" cool steam geysers in future playthroughs, to be better able to easily identify between the two, but I guess that isnt the case. In the end, it doesn't really matter, as there are many solutions to get the intended results.

Thanks for the feedback, and happy ONIing.

Which gasses are present around each of the geysers? What are the materials immediately surrounding the open areas of the geysers?  As previously stated by others in this thread, there are multiple factors involved.  They are:

1. How much heat is produced during the eruption cycle of the geyser?  Remember, water has a very high thermal capacity.
2. How much heat energy is removed from the system?  In this case, the system is the geyser, the open area, the walls, and the pool of water at the bottom.  If heat isn't removed faster than it is produced, then eventually the steam will stop condensing and you'll get over-pressure.
3. How much space does the steam have to disperse?  In other words, how large is the open area around the geyser?  The smaller the area, the more difficult it is to condense the steam before the next tick of the eruption.  This is especially true for vents that have a short eruption cycle, but a large amount of liquid per eruption.

For example, lets look at the two geysers below.

Spoiler

Their average output over a complete active/dormant cycle is roughly similar over time: 1564g/s and 1315g/s.  However, the first erupts at 2851g/s for 353s and the other erupts at 4300g/s for 378s.  So the first produces 1006kg of steam during one eruption and the second produces 1625kg.  That means the second produces 30% more heat energy during its eruption that must be cooled down.  On top of that, you'll notice that it is erupting at only 700g/s short of 5kg/s.  Remember, a gas vent, including cool steam vents, over-pressurizes at 5kg atmosphere pressure.  If your vent is in a 3x5 room, the vent will stop producing after 15 seconds of the eruption unless you can condense steam at the same rate that it is erupting.  A 5x20 room on the other hand means that you only have to condense the steam at an average of 1/3rd its eruption rate.

1. The second vent produces a LOT more heat during its eruption cycle.
2. The second vent will require a much better cooling system to condense the steam.
3. The second vent will need a larger open area to keep from going over pressure during its eruption unless you have an extremely robust cooling system that is able to condense the steam at the same rate the vent produces it.

[beowulf2010]

7 hours ago, DevilmanUK said:

Again as mentioned earlier by Gurgle... the amount of Wheezeworts needed depends on the output rate of the geyser (not its average) aswell as the size of the "tank" you have it enclosed in *and* the method in which you built it to cool the steam.  

Just arbitrarily saying "you only need 6 / 8 / (insert random number here) Wheezeworts is both factually incorrect and misleading.

Very true. This being said, I always calculate the geyser's output and place the appropriate amount of wheezeworts needed to cool that amount of steam by 4 degrees (99 to 95). The wheezeworts are always in a hydrogen filled room with extra area around it for circulation and (at worst) granite tempshift plates to "save" cooling during geyser dormancy and diamond plates to transfer the heat from the steam through the metal or glass tiles. I also always vacuum out my geysers as soon as I can. 

As a result, I feel confident in my initial statement for 4-5 wheezeworts taking care of the majority of geysers. I only remember having to need a 6th wheezewort once. 

Disclaimer: I use large rooms (10 to 15 wide and 3 floors tall is usually the smallest I build) for my geysers so I can afford to cool at only the geyser's dormancy included output rate. I also try to keep a layer and a half of water in the room at all times to help store a bit of cooling to condense steam. 

[Gurgel]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:35 PM, DevilmanUK said:

Again as mentioned earlier by Gurgle... the amount of Wheezeworts needed depends on the output rate of the geyser (not its average) aswell as the size of the "tank" you have it enclosed in *and* the method in which you built it to cool the steam.  

Just arbitrarily saying "you only need 6 / 8 / (insert random number here) Wheezeworts is both factually incorrect and misleading.

It also depends on whether you use the water already in there as heat-sink. That is a quick win initially, but over time this gets expensive cooling-wise, also because you are losing cooling power to the water taken out. (This could be prevented, but I hardly see it being worth the effort.) If you just cool the steam directly, I can well imagine that you need less WWs. Since I have no use for ATENs other than this, I do not mind. I may try direct steam cooling in the next feature preview tough.

Hence, as always in engineering, there are some standard solutions, but they are by far not the only thing that works and there are many situations in which they need to be adapted or do not work at all. Without that, the world would need almost no engineers, technicians would be enough. (Engineers understand solutions, can modify existing ones and create new ones based on known scientific principles. Technicians can just apply standard solutions to a problem. They only "plug-in components". That is why engineers learn the science behind things, why technicians just learn what standard components exist and how to use them. Don't get me wrong though, good technicians are not worth less than good engineers, they just have a different kind of knowledge and they are far more dependent on experience and intuition than engineers. Bad ones are an extreme cost factor in both areas though, engineers even more so than technicians, because their mistakes scale much more.)