Wheezewort nerfed or Natgas geyser stronger?

[habuky]

 

Am I missing something, or did they change the cooling capacity of wheezeworts?

I had 3  natgas geysers with the typical setup (2 wheezeworts, gold amalgam pump, pressure sensor >600g) running without problems for ages. After the space industry update one by one caused their pumps to take heat damage, as soon as they ended their dormancy. Okay steel would be the answer, sure. But what puzzles me is: what did Klei change? And would the answer in early game be: "okay more worts then"?

 

[0xFADE]

There may have been a change to the heat capacity of natural gas?

Though another thread listed it pretty high so I don’t know. 

Is there an external heat source that has crept up on your builds?

[crypticorb]

As far as I am aware, natural gas thermal capacity and conductivity has remained constant, as well as the cooling capacity of wheezeworts.

I'd throw a bit of automation on your pump to ensure that they don't pump when pressure is less than 2kg, as wheezeworts are most effective at cooling when immersed in 2kg/m3 pressure or higher.

Steel would be the my go-to solution to your problem, as wheezeworts are a limited resource and are better served elsewhere where cooling is needed, like farms or the base.

[KittenIsAGeek]

I haven't had any problems with my captured nat gas geysers.  One has a copper pump, the other two have gold amalgam pumps.  What pressure do you keep your room with the pump?  If the pressure is too low, then the output from the geyser will heat the remaining gas too quickly and burn your pump out.

[SkunkMaster]

I suggest you cap your geyser differently. Rule #1 when using weezes with geysers, always have weezes in hydrogen. that'll ensure you the best results. 

[thejams]

The difference between WW in hydrogen and WW in natural gas is rather small (12 kDTU vs 11 kDTU)

[SamLogan]

2 hours ago, habuky said:

Am I missing something, or did they change the cooling capacity of wheezeworts?

In fact, it's older than Space Industry, I think it was modified at Cosmic or right before.

You have some solutions :

- Maintain a medium pression in the room, 2000g/tile is good to tank the hot gas is output.

- Or use a steel pump.

- Or put 2 wheezewhorth beside the geyser.

[PhailRaptor]

Perhaps this is another Overheat Clamping issue.  Machinery that generates heat (such as a Gas Pump) and has had it's overheat temp changed by materials, would continuously reset the atmosphere (and thus themselves) to that base overheat temperature after a save/load.  So your Pump was effectively deleting heat from the NatGas.

I believe it was @R9MX4 who used this property to use a Large Battery to delete the heat of an Aquatuner as a proof-of-concept build.

[SkunkMaster]

30 minutes ago, thejams said:

The difference between WW in hydrogen and WW in natural gas is rather small (12 kDTU vs 11 kDTU)

and how big is the difference if you have, say 3 or 4 ? 

[KittenIsAGeek]

8 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Perhaps this is another Overheat Clamping issue.  Machinery that generates heat (such as a Gas Pump) and has had it's overheat temp changed by materials, would continuously reset the atmosphere (and thus themselves) to that base overheat temperature after a save/load.  So your Pump was effectively deleting heat from the NatGas.

I believe it was @R9MX4 who used this property to use a Large Battery to delete the heat of an Aquatuner as a proof-of-concept build.

Wasn't that issue fixed with the Space Industry update?

Just now, SkunkMaster said:

and how big is the difference if you have, say 3 or 4 ? 

Do the math.  3 would be 36kDTU vs 33kDTU and 4 would be 48kDTU vs 44kDTU.

[The Flying Fox]

2 hours ago, habuky said:

 

Am I missing something, or did they change the cooling capacity of wheezeworts?

I had 3  natgas geysers with the typical setup (2 wheezeworts, gold amalgam pump, pressure sensor >600g) running without problems for ages. After the space industry update one by one caused their pumps to take heat damage, as soon as they ended their dormancy. Okay steel would be the answer, sure. But what puzzles me is: what did Klei change? And would the answer in early game be: "okay more worts then"?

 

 

7 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Perhaps this is another Overheat Clamping issue.  Machinery that generates heat (such as a Gas Pump) and has had it's overheat temp changed by materials, would continuously reset the atmosphere (and thus themselves) to that base overheat temperature after a save/load.  So your Pump was effectively deleting heat from the NatGas.

I believe it was @R9MX4 who used this property to use a Large Battery to delete the heat of an Aquatuner as a proof-of-concept build.

Yeah, this was exactly what I was thinking it was.  If you have a gold amalgam pump in that geyser room, after a save/reload it would have clamped the temperature of the natural gas to around 75C.  This bug was fixed in Space Industry.  Two wheezes should be enough though, but I would keep the pressure at 3KGs in the geyser room.  That gives the wheezeworts enough gas to use for cooling

[SkunkMaster]

2 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Wasn't that issue fixed with the Space Industry update?

Do the math.  3 would be 36kDTU vs 33kDTU and 4 would be 48kDTU vs 44kDTU.

You're a sharp one. Seems that if you keep WW in nat gas it'll eventually add up to actually making a difference. 4k DTU/s might not seem as much, but how much is is actually over say a period of 50 cycles - the average dormancy length of a geyser.

[KittenIsAGeek]

 

Just now, SkunkMaster said:

You're a sharp one. Seems that if you keep WW in nat gas it'll eventually add up to actually making a difference. 4k DTU/s might not seem as much, but how much is is actually over say a period of 50 cycles - the average dormancy length of a geyser.

4kDTUs is 8 light bulbs.

[SkunkMaster]

Just now, KittenIsAGeek said:

 

4kDTUs is 8 light bulbs.

8 light bulbs, or 4 hamster wheels, or half a coal gen. sure. but over 50 cycles you'll be able to see the difference. 

 

And in the case of a geyser it's a matter of balance, that "tiny" bit can be enough to skewer the balance in the favor of the geyser, which will result in gradually overheating.

[PhailRaptor]

9 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

18 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Perhaps this is another Overheat Clamping issue.  Machinery that generates heat (such as a Gas Pump) and has had it's overheat temp changed by materials, would continuously reset the atmosphere (and thus themselves) to that base overheat temperature after a save/load.  So your Pump was effectively deleting heat from the NatGas.

I believe it was @R9MX4 who used this property to use a Large Battery to delete the heat of an Aquatuner as a proof-of-concept build.

Wasn't that issue fixed with the Space Industry update?

Yes....  that would be the point.  It used to work, and now it doesn't.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Honestly, its not that big of a problem and if you're worried about it overheating EVENTUALLY because you've completely isolated it inside insulated tiles, then throw one more wheezewort in there.  Or build an steel gas pump.  The geyser's top temperature is only 150c.

[SkunkMaster]

and steel pumps are 50 steel. most likely wont break the budget. - Personally i never "waste" weezes on ngg's anymore. steel pump and job done.

[Soulwind]

Honestly, I don't even bother with steel.  Gold Amalgam is good enough.  

I just don't completely thermally isolate the gas chamber.  I let some heat out through one wall

into spots where I want things to stay warm (like the Pepper farm or the Balm Lilly farm areas).

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

4 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

Perhaps this is another Overheat Clamping issue.  Machinery that generates heat (such as a Gas Pump) and has had it's overheat temp changed by materials, would continuously reset the atmosphere (and thus themselves) to that base overheat temperature after a save/load.  So your Pump was effectively deleting heat from the NatGas.

I believe it was @R9MX4 who used this property to use a Large Battery to delete the heat of an Aquatuner as a proof-of-concept build.

I'm a bit late. But please allow me to express my views. These views might repeat some of yours, I hope you won't mind.

1. Before SU, temperature reset might play a role in the cooling . But that bug has been fixed now.

2. Without the reset bug, two wheezeworts are roughly enough to cool down a NG geyser. The average output of a NG geyser is around 150g/s. Two wheezeworts can cool it down from 150C to 83C.

[habuky]

 

Thanks for the hints and remarks. And truly, steel isn't that complicated to produce in early game. So problem solved.

But still it is unclear to me, why all 3 pumps burned quite quickly after the SI update, while the exact same setup worked nicely in this base and all preceding without any failures.

[KittenIsAGeek]

34 minutes ago, habuky said:

 

Thanks for the hints and remarks. And truly, steel isn't that complicated to produce in early game. So problem solved.

But still it is unclear to me, why all 3 pumps burned quite quickly after the SI update, while the exact same setup worked nicely in this base and all preceding without any failures.

I don't know. I can't replicate your issue.  My geysers are behaving as they always have.

[PhailRaptor]

1 hour ago, habuky said:

Thanks for the hints and remarks. And truly, steel isn't that complicated to produce in early game. So problem solved.

But still it is unclear to me, why all 3 pumps burned quite quickly after the SI update, while the exact same setup worked nicely in this base and all preceding without any failures.

Climb in the time machine with me and I'll try and explain it.

Long ago, the Liquid Tepidizer was the most overpowered piece of technology known to Dupe kind.  You could reach temperatures high enough to melt Granite/Obsidian/Igneous Rock.  This made the devs pretty upset, because the Tepidizer was never meant to get above ~85 C.  To prevent this, they reworked the mechanisms around overheat temperature, to fix the Tepidizer.  If the temperature of the fluids in contact with the Tepidizer was in excess of the Tepidizer's overheat temperature, the temperature of those fluids would be reset to be equal to the overheat temperature.

But, of course, there were problems.  First of all, the way it was coded, this temperature clamping setup did not account for alterations based on materials used.  Gold Amalgam, for example, increasing the overheat temperature.  But this doesn't really matter if you're trying to limit the Tepidizer, right?  After all, you're trying to make it shut off at 85 C.  That leads us to the second problem.  They didn't just make this change for the Tepidizer.  This change was made for all mechanical equipment.  Aquatuners, Steam Turbines, Batteries, Grills, whatever.  Specific to your situation, Gas Pumps.  Any machine operating in either liquid or gas that was exceeding it's base overheat temperature, was resetting the temperature of that gas or liquid back to the base overheat temperature of the machine.

So, back to your scenario.  NatGas Vents spew out NatGas at 150 C, correct?  And the base overheat temperature of the Gas Pump is 75 C, which you then bumped up by using Gold Amalgam to 125 C.  Because the Pump was running at or above it's base overheat temperature (the NatGas is at 150 C, and the Pump is creating more heat because it's working), the game code reacts and clamps the temperature of both the Gas Pump and the NatGas down to 75 C -- the base overheat temperature of the Gas Pump.  Because of this behavior, the Gas Pump would never overheat, 50% of the heat in the NatGas would be deleted completely.

Now, as of the current live build, this temperature clamping behavior has been removed from the game.  This is why your Gas Pump is now overheating and being destroyed by the heat, where it never used to before.

[thejams]

8 hours ago, SkunkMaster said:

You're a sharp one. Seems that if you keep WW in nat gas it'll eventually add up to actually making a difference. 4k DTU/s might not seem as much, but how much is is actually over say a period of 50 cycles - the average dormancy length of a geyser.

4 kDTU/s is nothing in the game, especially compared to the complication of setting up a hydrogen cooling system.  It is just so insignificant it's not even worth thinking about.

[habuky]

1 hour ago, PhailRaptor said:

Climb in the time machine with me and I'll try and explain it.

Thanks!  I really liked the little journey. It made me understand the issue. 

[SkunkMaster]

14 hours ago, thejams said:

4 kDTU/s is nothing in the game, especially compared to the complication of setting up a hydrogen cooling system.  It is just so insignificant it's not even worth thinking about.

No 4kDTU/s is nothing, just like 4 = 0

 

Hydrogen cooling loop, like this ?