Need some help with my electrolyzer setup

[Soulwind]

So, here's the basic electrolyzer setup I've been trying to work with.

It provides more than enough O2 and is self-powered by the H2, 

but I should be getting some excess H2 in the long run.

That isn't happening, so I must have some gas deletion occurring.

Any suggestions on what to move around to prevent H2 deletion?

Don't worry about any gas cooling, that's handled elsewhere.  Just O2 and H2 production.

[PhailRaptor]

In my experience using QuQuasar's template for a SPOM, the third Gas Pump makes a large (but not complete) reduction in deletion of the Hydrogen.  I still get a surplus, though it does still seem less than it should be.

Why that gif continues to be the thumbnail for the thread is a mystery...

The 3 pump design also has the added advantage of never needing any form of filtration after the initial priming phase.  After you fill the top space with Hydrogen, you won't have any Oxygen reaching that space anymore.

[Promethien]

Deletion is happening. The way to beat it is to set up so that there is always some hydrogen near the output of the electrolyzer. The one I am sharing doesn't need any kind of filtering. Once the gasses settle into position no oxygen makes it to the top. I've made it several times now and you don't even need to do anything special. Just hook it to a generator. It'll stop getting oxygen well before the generator breaks. I have been asked about the space use in the past. It encourages the oxygen to move away from the Electrolyzer so you get better uptime.

[Saturnus]

With this talk of mass deletion I decided to test my own set up that I use in survival games.

Atmo sensors set at 600g each for the hydrogen which are AND gated. And 1000g each for the oxygen.

I first primed the system and let it rest. Resulting in these numbers resting in the set up:

H: 4.193kg
O: 8.279+8.904kg

I then ran a full liquid reservoir (5000kg) through it and the output was:

H: 561.0+3.081kg
O: 4439.6+7.979+8.616kg

That means the output hydrogen was 112g short of the target, and the oxygen was 888g short when running 5000kg through the system. That's the exact value of 1kg water output so that was quite odd. I ran it again. Same result. So I ran it again with two liquid reservoirs for 10000kg water. Same result, 888g oxygen missing and 112g hydrogen missing.

My tentative conslusion is that it's the starting or stopping of the electrolysers when they first get water or when they run out of water that deletes the mass I'm missing but I'll have to do further tests for that when I have time. For now though I'm quite happy that my set up is basically 100% efficient without using any exploits at all with no mass deletion apart from that anomaly mentioned above.

EDIT: So I tested again with a shut off valve on a timer. Regardless of the time I set there is always the exact same 888g oxygen and 112g hydrogen missing, so my conclusion that there is a deletion when the electrolysers first receive water or when the water runs out. Exactly which of the two it is I haven't been able to determine. The conclusion however remains the same. This set up is 100% efficient with no mass deletion as long as the water supply is stable.

[Carnis]

Simplest setup + highest energy throughput:

Electrolyzer-IN-THE-BEDROOM. (:

The oxygen pumps are another trap, set by evil developers.

 

 

[PhailRaptor]

1 hour ago, Carnis said:

The oxygen pumps are another trap, set by evil developers.

Not really.  You're creating a huge amount of heat right in your bedrooms with that.  Which is also probably Stifling that Briar Bush, but passing Hydrogen from another Electrolyzer is just as likely, given the distribution of pink pufts of gas in your screenshot.  Not to mention, if we had a wider angle, we'd probably see that the spread from your setup is rather short, requiring you to devote more space and more infrastructure to more Electrolyzers to keep your entire interior area breathable.

Where as an enclosed 3 Pump system can supply enough Oxygen for 8 to 9 Dupes, with a cooling solution in place, only taking up a 9 by 11 area of space.

[Saturnus]

7 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Where as an enclosed 3 Pump system can supply enough Oxygen for 8 to 9 Dupes, with a cooling solution in place, only taking up a 9 by 11 area of space.

8x10 tiles in fact for my version above which provides an absolutely constant 1kg/s oxygen supply.

[Djoums]

Well you can make it even more compact like this one, 16°C oxygen for ~17 dupes and 12x9 (cheating a bit, there's a mechanical filter on top of it).

It does delete some H2 though, about 6g/s per electrolyzer from my tests.

[Carnis]

38 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Not really.  You're creating a huge amount of heat right in your bedrooms with that.  Which is also probably Stifling that Briar Bush, but passing Hydrogen from another Electrolyzer is just as likely, given the distribution of pink pufts of gas in your screenshot.  Not to mention, if we had a wider angle, we'd probably see that the spread from your setup is rather short, requiring you to devote more space and more infrastructure to more Electrolyzers to keep your entire interior area breathable.

Where as an enclosed 3 Pump system can supply enough Oxygen for 8 to 9 Dupes, with a cooling solution in place, only taking up a 9 by 11 area of space.

You are joking right?

I vented all My cooling pW to start a puft farm without morbs (25 tiles x820kg) so temp went *briefly* above 30. Around 200 cycles that briar has Been green.

There is no downside to free breathing electrolyzers. Always less space, always more Power.

[Slvrsrfr]

On 9/18/2018 at 8:01 PM, PhailRaptor said:

Why that gif continues to be the thumbnail for the thread is a mystery...

I really dislike that as well, it's distracting, and slightly disturbing. ;p

[Iluinrandir]

You may want to increase the room size a bit (right of the electrolyzer).and change the pump positions. 

 

Maybe copy the electroylzer room used within this reddit post: 

 

[The Plum Gate]

I almost wish there was another O2 building that had piped outputs rather than free air expulsion.

[Xheotris]

@The Plum Gate Nah, free gas management is a big part of the game for me. I like the challenge of filtering and scrubbing it all.

[Saturnus]

3 hours ago, Iluinrandir said:

Maybe copy the electroylzer room used within this reddit post: 

The problem with this and many many other designs is that they require advanced machinery and exotic materials which means they're basically poor designs for oxygen supply.

If you're going to build an electrolyzer set up you probably wanna have it up and running long before you have access to plastic and tons of refined metal. That's why a build such as mine above is so good. It requires a minimum of exotic materials if you can even call abyssalite that, a minimum of refined metal, and is upgradable. Note that central part is open to the bottom? That's because you can start with using an old style gas filter, and later switch to a mechanical filter, or the sensor filter as shown.

You should easily be able to have one up and running before cycle 60 if you're a fairly fast mover and certainly before cycle 100, so long time before you run out of algae which is the whole point of an electrolyzer setup. And then it's just amazingly reliable. It chucks along for literally 1000s of cycles without a problem.

[Chipplyman]

@Saturnusdo you really even need a filter at all? It looks like your build will achieve 100% gas separation via the one-tile hydrogen channels. 

[Saturnus]

5 minutes ago, Chipplyman said:

@Saturnusdo you really even need a filter at all? It looks like your build will achieve 100% gas separation via the one-tile hydrogen channels. 

It's not needed no. It is there as a fail safe just in case there should be a catastrophic failure. Usually created by the player, like you accidentally setting some tiles to be deconstructed and such. Or you connect two pipes that shouldn't have been connected.

[PhailRaptor]

6 hours ago, Chipplyman said:

@Saturnusdo you really even need a filter at all? It looks like your build will achieve 100% gas separation via the one-tile hydrogen channels. 

You need it initially to "prime" the system, letting the H2 flood upward and the O2 settle down, as well as clear out any other trace gases.  But after that you can take it off.

[mathmanican]

On 9/19/2018 at 6:06 AM, Saturnus said:

So I tested again with a shut off valve on a timer. Regardless of the time I set there is always the exact same 888g oxygen and 112g hydrogen missing, so my conclusion that there is a deletion when the electrolysers first receive water or when the water runs out. Exactly which of the two it is I haven't been able to determine.

Perhaps the missing 888g oxygen and 112g hydrogen is still sitting in the machine, and won't come out till you start producing more. This would match what happens with the steam turbine, where some steam is mysteriously hidden in the machine. I've got ideas of how to test if this is the case, but I'll let you first. 

[PhailRaptor]

4 hours ago, mathmanican said:

I've got ideas of how to test if this is the case, but I'll let you first. 

...can't you just click on the machine while the game is paused, and read the "Contents" section of the general info pane?  Almost every building in the game works like this.

[mathmanican]

@PhailRaptor See the following comment in another thread. 

At least one machine holds hidden contents not displayed inside it.  It wouldn't surprise me if other machines do as well.  The electrolyzer's main storage is water, so it wouldn't show oxygen and hydrogen in it's storage.  It would not surprise me if it kept the last created oxygen/hydrogen inside the machine, only to release it when the next bit of water comes through. In coding, that would be the difference between "a++" versus "++a" on some for loop. I will probably test this tomorrow, and then post a bug report if it's true.

The fact that @Saturnus could replicate missing exactly 888/112 g gives me hope that the exact reason it's missing can be isolated. 

1. If it loses it on a "first/last" water issue, then just start/stop the pump repeatedly and you should be able to predict how much gas is lost.
2. If it keeps the gas inside, then the only time you should see a mass loss is the first time you run a test through a new electrolyzer, as subsequent tests will expel the held back gas. So just run several tests through the same electrolyzer.
3. If it's hidden gas, does it disappear on save/load? This can also be tested.  

Since @Saturnus already built something to test this, I was wondering if he would want to. I'll get around to it sometime.  If it's a simple variable assignment being done at the wrong place in a for loop, then finding it now could help the developers. It's clearly happening in the Steam Turbine.