cooling Watt and Temperature interaction.

[Scorpio King]

So quick example:

If i have a room with 100 watt heat generation and it is cooling with hydrogen, how low does hydrogen needs to be cooled to cancel those 100 watt?

I've tried doing all the math shenanigans but its beyond me. 1 watt is 1j/s, then you look at Thermal Capacity of the element you use... then i got even more confusing. Please help! If someone could bump with right formula i should use or alike that would be awesome.

[WanderingKid]

A Wheezewort in Hydrogen gets 12kW of cooling.  Using a thermoregulator or aquatuner cools the inside but pushes the heat out, at the amount of the temperature change (14C) and the specific heat of the element being changed.

So, there's a bunch of different ways to adjust for heat.  If you can tell us what you're specifically after, we can probably help you more with a working example that you can understand.

[Scorpio King]

5 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

If you can tell us what you're specifically after, we can probably help you more with a working example that you can understand.

So the setup is like this, there is an isolated room filled with hydrogen and the room have bunch of machines, that generate heat, the number of watts can very. The room is cooled with gas pipes coming though it and hydrogen inside the pipes that is cooled by thermoregulator that is outside of the room.

How many thermoregulators do i need to cancel out (for example) 100 watt (or 100j/s) of heat?

Also where did 12kw of cooling came from for Wheezewort?

[beowulf2010]

6 minutes ago, Scorpio King said:

Also where did 12kw of cooling came from for Wheezewort?

A Wheezewort cools 1kg of gas by 5 degrees per second. 

Hydrogen's Specific Heat Capacity is 2.4 Joules per gram per degree of temperature change. 

2.4 * 1000grams * 5 degrees = 12,000 watts or 12kw.

[Scorpio King]

9 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

2.4 * 1000grams * 5 degrees = 12,000 watts or 12kw.

This! Thank you.

Also those 1kg and 5 degrees on wheezewort, is that visible in the code of the game? I mean where did the numbers came from.

[Promethien]

Heat will shift as long as there is a difference in temperature between the two mediums you are trying to transfer between. The specific heat capacity tooltip you are showing is how many units of heat (joules in this case) it takes to to shift that medium by 1c.

So your 100w of heat generation in the medium with SHC of 2400 will increase the temp of 1g of material by 1c every 24 seconds. You have to consider the volume of material because the entire room itself isn't being heated by 1c every 24 seconds. Just 1g of material which is much harder to estimate since you have to pause then calculate the number of tiles and how much volume you have.

This is why tuners are so powerful. They knock off a set amount of temperature regardless of many many joules are actually in the medium. Skimmers and sieves as well because they always output at 40c. So you can take hot medium, run it through a sieve then through a tuner to always come out the same temperature (put a tuner in your polluted water pool and you sieve out the heat the tuner emits).

[beowulf2010]

2 hours ago, Scorpio King said:

This! Thank you.

Also those 1kg and 5 degrees on wheezewort, is that visible in the code of the game? I mean where did the numbers came from.

Yes, these numbers have been data mined and are in the actual code. To go a step further, a Wheezewort pulls 1kg of gas from the bottom of the 2 tiles it exists in and expels that 1kg from the top tile 5 degrees C/K colder.

I think that it cannot cool anything down to within 5 degrees of its condensation point, avoiding things turning to liquid within the Wheezewort but that's something I'm remembering versus something that I've seen in other's decompiled code. 

[WanderingKid]

22 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

I think that it cannot cool anything down to within 5 degrees of its condensation point, avoiding things turning to liquid within the Wheezewort but that's something I'm remembering versus something that I've seen in other's decompiled code. 

There are a series of tests that others did somewhere in the forums to confirm that they can't get past the condensation of the material they're in, which is why you typically fill a room with Hydrogen and have it cool off via Granite or metal tiles.

3 hours ago, Scorpio King said:

How many thermoregulators do i need to cancel out (for example) 100 watt (or 100j/s) of heat?

This will depend on what you run through the thermoregulator.  Using 1kg packets in a hydrogen pipe is the usual method.  This will transfer 14C degrees per packet per second, because that's what the thermoregulator does.  This therefore ends up with a similar function that @beowulf2010 mentioned, just a higher change.  So your 1kg of -14C change of Hydrogen in the pipe moves 2.4*1000*14 = 33.6 kW of thermal change.  Keep in mind, a thermo regulator doesn't destroy heat.  Those 33.6 kW move from inside the pipe into the thermoregulator itself and then into the atmosphere around it.

[Scorpio King]

2 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

This will depend on what you run through the thermoregulator.  Using 1kg packets in a hydrogen pipe is the usual method.  This will transfer 14C degrees per packet per second, because that's what the thermoregulator does.  This therefore ends up with a similar function that @beowulf2010 mentioned, just a higher change.  So your 1kg of -14C change of Hydrogen in the pipe moves 2.4*1000*14 = 33.6 kW of thermal change.  Keep in mind, a thermo regulator doesn't destroy heat.  Those 33.6 kW move from inside the pipe into the thermoregulator itself and then into the atmosphere around it.

Yeah i end up with same numbers, but i hardly have 1kw in room that generates heat and 2 thermal regulators cant keep up. Considering that im taking it into account 1kj/s which is not the case, i mean they dont cook or dance 24/7. Does dupes give out heat too or something? Everyone in atmo suit.

[beowulf2010]

7 minutes ago, Scorpio King said:

Yeah i end up with same numbers, but i hardly have 1kw in room that generates heat and 2 thermal regulators cant keep up. Considering that im taking it into account 1kj/s which is not the case, i mean they dont cook or dance 24/7. Does dupes give out heat too or something? Everyone in atmo suit.

No, it's more that buildings give off way more heat than the listed wattage would indicate. I could be remembering wrong, but I think you need to multiply the base wattage by a factor of 8 for some reason. 

If I can find the recent thread I'm thinking of, I'll link it here. Warning, it's math and experimental heavy. 

I think this is the thread...

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/93998-why-is-my-aetn-overheating/

[Scorpio King]

2 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

No, it's more that buildings give off way more heat than the listed wattage would indicate. I could be remembering wrong, but I think you need to multiply the base wattage by a factor of 8 for some reason. 

If I can find the recent thread I'm thinking of, I'll link it here. Warning, it's math and experimental heavy. 

Even if the math was to multiple by 80, two thermos should keep up.

In a room there is 2 cooking station which is 22.5 * 2, 1 arcade machine +20 and a expresso machine (with precooled water to 20C) which is +5 = 22.5 * 2 + 20 + 5 = 70 watt of heat VS two regulators with 67.2 KW heat transfer. Sensors are set to if above 20C. But room got to 80C somehow. I only noticed when doors started to overheat.

[WanderingKid]

I haven't played much with the expresso machine, but that value seems unlikely to matter.  80C sounds like you're heating up a bunch of electrolizers.

[beowulf2010]

36 minutes ago, Scorpio King said:

Even if the math was to multiple by 80, two thermos should keep up.

In a room there is 2 cooking station which is 22.5 * 2, 1 arcade machine +20 and a expresso machine (with precooled water to 20C) which is +5 = 22.5 * 2 + 20 + 5 = 70 watt of heat VS two regulators with 67.2 KW heat transfer. Sensors are set to if above 20C. But room got to 80C somehow. I only noticed when doors started to overheat.

Thermo whats? Thermo Regulators (gas) or Thermo Aquatuners (liquids)? I'm assuming a Regulator with Hydrogen times 2 from yourkw calculation but it pays to avoid assuming anything. 

And I agree with @WanderingKid, sounds like you have another source of heat in there.

How are you cooling the Thermo Regulators(?) you're using? My favorite ways are to submerge them in the polluted water basin in my Natural gas power plant or stick them in hydrogen rooms with 3 Wheezeworts per regulator. 

Screenshots would definitely help. 

[Scorpio King]

2 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

And I agree with @WanderingKid, sounds like you have another source of heat in there.

How are you cooling the Thermo Regulators(?) you're using? My favorite ways are to submerge them in the polluted water basin in my Natural gas power plant or stick them in hydrogen rooms with 3 Wheezeworts per regulator. 

There is no other heat source and the room surrounded by vacuum there is no interactions apart what is inside of it and machines I've listed are only ones in. Its either espresso machine or the arcade station that are acting not the way they supposed to. I've been building this way each update and only now encountered heat issue.

Regulators are cooled by 4 wheezeworts, but its not the issue, they never stop working.

Gray = vacuum

[beowulf2010]

Weird. What are the Regulators actually cooling? Full 1kg packets of Hydrogen for a radiant pipe cooling loop in the great hall or are you pumping the oxygen itself through the Regulators and back into the room? 

Never mind. No pump in the great hall so it's a cooling loop of some sort. 

[WanderingKid]

@Scorpio King, can you attach a game save?  Something's really weird and I couldn't tell you from just a screen shot.

[Scorpio King]

6 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

Weird. What are the Regulators actually cooling? Full 1kg packets of Hydrogen for a radiant pipe cooling loop in the great hall or are you pumping the oxygen itself through the Regulators and back into the room? 

Never mind. No pump in the great hall so it's a cooling loop of some sort. 

Loop, 1kg hydrogen in pipes.

I've disabled espresso machine and added another loop with oil. Now its getting to 20C. Something fishy with it.

 

2 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

@Scorpio King, can you attach a game save?  Something's really weird and I couldn't tell you from just a screen shot.

Too late for that, changed so much already

[neoazureus]

you need to multiply the base wattage by a factor of 200. And consider that food output from cooking stations is 70 or 75 °C

[Scorpio King]

1 minute ago, neoazureus said:

you need to multiply the base wattage by a factor of 200. And consider that food output from cooking stations is 70 or 75 °C

70 * 200 = 14kw VS 66,7kw of cooling.

Like i said, I've been building like this every update since ATMO suits came out, i had no issues. Its most probably new buildings (espresso + arcade)

[beowulf2010]

I highly doubt you made this mistake, but what did you make the pipes out of in the great hall that the hydrogen is circulating in? 

I ask only because I once made an entire cooling loop out of insulated pipe instead of radiant... Oops. 

[Scorpio King]

4 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

I highly doubt you made this mistake, but what did you make the pipes out of in the great hall that the hydrogen is circulating in? 

I ask only because I once made an entire cooling loop out of insulated pipe instead of radiant... Oops. 

Well pipes would burst near regulators then so i would noticed quite soon.

[SchlauFuchs]

Do Wheezeworts have pressure limits? 

[PhailRaptor]

10 minutes ago, SchlauFuchs said:

Do Wheezeworts have pressure limits? 

Their cooling capacity maxes out at 1 kg/s being processed.  I don't believe they have an overpressure limit, and even if they did I'm not so sure it would matter.  In low pressure situations, they tend to create a 1 tile vacuum at their base.  So even if they did have an overpressure limit, they'd never reach it regardless of the atmospheric pressure, because they create their own low pressure zone just by doing their normal thing.

[martosss]

Heh, steam has heat capacity 4.179, so if you're cooling steam you're deleting  21kW/sec And in case your Wheezewort overheats - just uproot it, plant it again - it's at 20° temperature - ONI magic!

[erso]

1 hour ago, martosss said:

Heh, steam has heat capacity 4.179, so if you're cooling steam you're deleting  21kW/sec And in case your Wheezewort overheats - just uproot it, plant it again - it's at 20° temperature - ONI magic!

Does Wheezewort not overheat above 95°C? And is steam below 95°C not liquid? Was it a joke or did you really find a way that Wheezewort and Steam interact meaningfully?