Guys, what do you think about the acessibility of this game?

[Ghengis_John]

I started playing this game again after being away for a few updates and I have spent the last two days doing math. Then I remembered that before I quit last time I'd spent about 6 days trying to concoct a way to convert water to steam and back again, and then a way to cool my base. And then I remembered that I came to the realization after a lot more math that there was no way to cool my base (with the things I knew about) and that's why I quit in the first place.

I am not for or against complexity, and I realize that for a lot of people this cycle of problem solving and the complexity is where all the fun is. But I think about Don't Starve by comparison and a lot of the concepts in that game were a lot more intuitive. If your character is hungry, find some food, cooked food is better than raw food, clothes keep you warm in the cold etc. I never had to bust out a calculator while I was playing that game to figure out if I had enough water to keep my crops growing or had to look up formula tables for heat conversion. It seems a lot less... Elegant to me?

And now that I'm back I'm seeing that geysers have dormancy cycles of varying intervals and we have logic gates and I feel like things are only getting more complicated. I don't know how I feel about that. I play a lot of the kind of fighting games where somebody can play for a month and still be "training" (lol) I'm okay with complexity. But I'm also casual enough (and bad enough at math) that I don't like climbing uphill and I can see how that might put people off or limit a game's audience. I might enjoy a complicated fighting game but nobody can argue against the fact that a more accessible game like Smash Brothers has a bigger community than a complex game like Guilty Gear or that Street Fighter's audience is bigger than Virtua Fighter's. That doesn't mean that Guilty Gear isn't perfect in it's own right but its complexity means it's appeal is inherently limited. That can be okay though, not everything has to be for everybody, it might be better that it's not even. Dwarf Fortress has always had a pretty high barrier to entry and it's still going strong all these years on and sometimes when you try to make a game for everybody it ends up being for nobody.

And maybe the average person won't be bothered that they can't build a base that can sustain itself forever or won't bother with even trying to build a heat exchange. Maybe they'll give the game a bad review because it's too hard or maybe they'll just watch the "funny little mans" dig for 20 days and be satisfied. Who knows how it'll go? I'm of two minds about it myself really. Anyhow I'm just thinking aloud, those are my thoughts and I'd love to hear yours. What do you guys think of or about this game's accessibility? I expect some hate for even asking the question from the crowd that loves to lose games and always pushes for things to be harder, but don't hate me guys, I'd like to hear from you too.

[onebit]

Maybe you should try a simpler approach? With steam/h20 geysers and a cooling system you can grow bristle berry and make o2 for about 10 dupes indefinitely. Once the base is stable you can move on to the fancy stuff if desired.

The only automation that's really "required" is smart batteries  for power generation and atmo sensors for the electrolyzer, which are easy to understand.

I don't feel bad when a base death spirals. It's fun to make a new one.

The complexity of ONI is what makes it fun. If you could just pipe water into a building and steam comes out I don't think it would have much replay value.

[Oozinator]

5 hours ago, Ghengis_John said:

I started playing this game again after being away for a few updates and I have spent the last two days doing math.

When you like math, do it..
Game is really no way hard with standard settings, even when unlucky with geysers.

[onebit]

I'm not sure if hard is the right word, but a lot of the twitch streamers would die to heat death if they continued. Just like how most sim cities will have terrible traffic.

[Oozinator]

Just now, onebit said:

I'm not sure if hard is the right word, but a lot of the twitch streamers would die to heat death if they continued. Just like how most sim cities will have terrible traffic.

Because they suck at gaming!

[Winternewt]

5 hours ago, Ghengis_John said:

I started playing this game again after being away for a few updates and I have spent the last two days doing math. Then I remembered that before I quit last time I'd spent about 6 days trying to concoct a way to convert water to steam and back again, and then a way to cool my base. And then I remembered that I came to the realization after a lot more math that there was no way to cool my base (with the things I knew about) and that's why I quit in the first place.

I totally get your feelings, this game made me remember my term paper on chemical technology at some point, and the fact that some resources are finite kills the joy of their usage: I see a large glowing red banner "#### cycles to live left" in my head instead of the possible benefits. But the fact is - upgrade revamps are currently the main 'cause of death' for any advanced colony currently unless you are willing to use debugging tools to keep up with the changes.

The beauty of this game is that it can be played both ways, as an "excel sheet simulator" resulting in overengineered precisely calculated Biosphere-3 project of you own (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2) , with automated feedback loops and closed cycle infinite sustenance, or you can just play it as it goes, solving the problems as they arise as long as you can. I think the games learning curve is the prefect one - fairly easy to start (<200 cycles), and hard to master (1k+ cycles or high population) once advanced matter and heat conversions become a "must" rather than "can" and all unaccounted shortfalls of the designs used show their ugly face. Multi-level complexity is what makes this game unique.

Obviously, initial long-term planning and use of well-tested design plans and layouts save a lot of time and trial-and-error efforts and result in 500+ cycles-lasting colonies, but finding a way to fix a flaw in a working boiler without rebuilding it or other crisis-management is also fun and challenging.

 

[KittenIsAGeek]

5 hours ago, Ghengis_John said:

And maybe the average person won't be bothered that they can't build a base that can sustain itself forever or won't bother with even trying to build a heat exchange. Maybe they'll give the game a bad review because it's too hard or maybe they'll just watch the "funny little mans" dig for 20 days and be satisfied. Who knows how it'll go? I'm of two minds about it myself really. Anyhow I'm just thinking aloud, those are my thoughts and I'd love to hear yours. What do you guys think of or about this game's accessibility? I expect some hate for even asking the question from the crowd that loves to lose games and always pushes for things to be harder, but don't hate me guys, I'd like to hear from you too.

I've found that this game can either be as complex or as simple as you want it to be.  For the simple approach, here's some things to remember:

1. Take it slow.  If you accept every dupe that pops out of the arch, you'll run in to problems really quickly.  Keep things manageable.  If your farms are producing enough food, and your oxygen supply is good, then by all means, grab another dupe.  But remember: Resources are going to eventually limit the number of dupes you can reasonably support.
2. Heat rises, cold falls.  If you put insulated tiles at the bottom of your base to keep heat from lower biomes out, and you build your heat-producing buildings to the side or at the top, then you can keep much of your main base relatively cool (bristle bloom OK temperatures) for hundreds of cycles without doing anything else.
3. Smart batteries are a must.  Every time you build a generator, put a smart battery in series with it.  This gives you very precise control over when the generator kicks on.  Smart batteries make coal and hydrogen generators useful.
4. Gasses will eventually separate by density.  This means that if you're getting too much CO2 in your base, dig down deeper.  If you've got a hydrogen build-up, dig higher.  Oxygen and polluted oxygen are an exception to this, as they have the same density, but for the most part you can use this property of gasses to manage levels in your base without having to build anything complicated.
5. Heat can be moved relatively easily using aquatuners and such, and pools of water are great places for holding a lot of heat.  You don't need to do anything complicated to cool something down, just move the heat to somewhere that it isn't going to be a problem.  If your main base is insulated, then you shouldn't have a problem.
6. Slimelung sucks.  Sending your dupes for short trips into a slime biome is OK, but really try to limit your exposure to slimelung tainted air.  If you need to expand into a slime biome, use exo suits -- at least until you clean the place up.  Toxic biomes, on the other hand, only have chlorine and hydrogen, so your dupes won't get sick.  Just be careful where that heat goes and you'll be fine.
7. Along the same lines, hygiene is extremely important.  Build wash basins at every outhouse access until you can get a plumbing system up, then transition over to sinks.  Even if you're feeding germy water to a sink, your dupes hands will still come out clean.  
8. Ranching can be easy or it can be hard. A small hatch farm will keep your coal generators running and provide you with meat and eggs to supplement your other food production without a lot of effort.  Fish are a great source of easy meat and eggs -- especially if you've got electrolyzers producing your oxygen.  What else would you be using that algae for?  On the other hand, pufts and drekos can be difficult to manage.  
9. Most stuff consumes stuff and produces waste.  You don't necessarily need to do the math, but you should at least pay attention and make sure that the waste either has somewhere to go (whether is CO2 or Polluted H2O) or gets used somewhere else.   "Oh, I'm running low on polluted water, but I've got an excess of petroleum.  I'll build a petroleum generator to run on a smart battery (and turn off my coal generators) for a while and see if I'm still short.

Anyway, just experiment a bit.  If you build something and it doesn't work the way you wanted it to, you can always destroy it and try another method.

 

4 minutes ago, Winternewt said:

I think the games learning curve is the prefect one - fairly easy to start (<200 cycles), and hard to master (1k+ cycles or high population) once advanced matter and heat conversions become a "must" rather than "can" and all unaccounted shortfalls of the designs used show their ugly face.

For the most part, I agree completely.  However, the "Very early" game is still a bit tricky.  One thing that often gets overlooked during the first 20 cycles is that each piece of debris on the floor is a separate decor hit.  During the very early part of the game, there aren't a lot of methods for handling stress other than managing the decor.  In older bases, I don't necessarily have to keep my floors clean, but early in the game?  Its devastating to hit cycle 25 and have a dupe go all destructive and bash apart the oxydizer.  Or another one go on a binge eating breakdown and devour all your remaining food.  Suddenly your other dupes are stressing out and its a downward spiral of despair.

[Stoof]

It's very hard to look at the game without the experience and knowledge you've built up. I would imagine, for a new player, the start is very tricky but that is mainly due to a number of pitfalls in place that without reading outdated guides you would have no idea about. Hopefully this will be cleaned up before release.

One of the big things I see on streams is players feeling the need to build their researched technologies as they get them. You can easily research everything in the first 100 cycles yet most of my bases aren't even using half the buildings by cycle 200. Another thing I see is what I call the stress loop, where early game dupes are stressing so much and spending so much time and power on massage tables that they have to build for this as the norm. Managing you decor can mean that no dupe needs to go near a massage table.

I guess you could play the game by working out all the maths, if that's your thing the game definately provides that facility. For me, I do work out my geysers average output and some of my production chains but generally I don't think it's necessary unless you want the 100% optimal set up.

I've never had a massive problem with heat. Insulate your base, keep your heat producers outside and when you switch to electrolyzers build them somewhere cold and pump the cold oxygen back.

[Pyrrus]

10 hours ago, Ghengis_John said:

But I think about Don't Starve by comparison and a lot of the concepts in that game were a lot more intuitive. If your character is hungry, find some food, cooked food is better than raw food, clothes keep you warm in the cold etc

For me it is exactly this difference that is the reason why I play ONI and don't play Don't Starve. It is the ability to find non obvious solutions to problems, ones that aren't handed to you directly through the game that makes ONI so interesting for me. For me, the fun comes from designing complex (elegant?) and over-engineered solutions to self-set challenges and the inevitable problems that arise. 

But ONI doesn't require this. As Winternewt says:

4 hours ago, Winternewt said:

The beauty of this game is that it can be played both ways, as an "excel sheet simulator" resulting in overengineered precisely calculated Biosphere-3 project of you own (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2) , with automated feedback loops and closed cycle infinite sustenance, or you can just play it as it goes, solving the problems as they arise as long as you can. I think the games learning curve is the prefect one

Also, I think that as the game grows the variety of play styles will increase. For example, with the ranching updates it is possible to play relying almost entirely on the critters and I know people who would happily play this game a critter farming sim but would't have played it otherwise.

ONI is open ended and you make your own goals. If you set modest goals then you'll won't need much math but if you set ambitious goals then you're going to have delve into the subtleties of the game which will need some number crunching.

[Kiros]

If you never use Debug/Sandbox mode, I feel like you should go through atleast a dozen failed colonies before hitting triple digit cycles. The game isn't just about making an infinitely sustainable colony, it's about exploration, innovation, trial and error as well.

Besides, you can save whenever you want to rollback mistakes.

[Kabrute]

I didn't use math when I made lox, I used the systems the game described.  As i've scaled production upward I still haven't sat down crunching numbers, instead I just build the ideas I have and keep what works, reject what doesn't.  Now I can generate 10kg/s lox production if necessary because i've had that experience.  It has nothing to do with math, to realize your food is running low so plant more crops and reject that next dupe coming down the pipeline.
As for Heat death, @#%$ that @$%$% %@#$ heat #$@%%$ death bull #@%#, toilets, sinks, and showers are the biggest sources of heat in most bases and people just don't realize it because the C value doesn't change though the thermal capacity of the liquid triples, and in the case of the toilet, the quantity doubles.  Not that big a deal with 18-20c liquid but if that 40c water becomes 40c pwater your slaughtering yourself with the heat, so the biggest best advice I can give to anyone anywhere for avoiding heat death is aquatuning your seives output, you can safely run it through 2 tuners, if you do this you can avoid heat death forever.  In my builds I run the pwater headed to the seive through the floor under the aquatuners to pull some last heat from them before deleting it into the seive, started a new colony for MKII live so I don't have the finished product to display.

[fishoutofwater]

I think OP already has the answer

21 hours ago, Ghengis_John said:

not everything has to be for everybody, it might be better that it's not even

 

[GrindThisGame]

I've never HAD to use a calculator to play and enjoy this game. Learning a few basic concepts sets you up for 1000+ cycle bases which die from lag before lack of resources. What I do like about the game is that you can pop out the calculator, excel, omnigraffle, visual studio (lol), python if you want to go full geek on the game (but never go full geek or it may drive you insane like Brothgar the mad scientist  )

You can play the game without using most of the content and have a nice sustainable base that will run forever or you can build a complexity monstrosity that looks like the inside of dell poweredge r930.

Some of those tips/rules of thumb:

1. abysallite is an almost perfect insulator
2. too many dupes can be hard to maintain
3. the sieve can destroy heat (so can fertilizer makers and other things)
4. lavatories and showers are a nice source of polluted water
5. washing your hands after pooping is good
6. paintings are nice
7. snazzy suits are very nice
8. co2 sinks, hydrogen rises, oxygen sits somewhere in between
9. there is enough algae to sustain 5 dupes for 500+ cycles
10. there is enough coal to sustain 5 dupes power needs for 500+ cycles
11. hatches are cute

[loserfits]

I completely agree and and have thought and complained extensively (to my friends) about this. I've always loved games like ONI and fell in love with it very quickly, but after playing it for a few months now and and going past the hours played in alot of my other favourite games so quick, i still feel like i'm a beginner in this game.

Everything is just so complicated, I figure one problem out and start to fix it but before i'm even done another problem is causing chaos! I only figured exosuits out decent oxygen production out in the few weeks before the last update, and i have still never produced plastic. I'm always really excited about every new update but sometimes i've felt like this update isn't even relevant to me, because it can only be accessed in the late stages of this game. However, i still love it, it always keeps me on my toes. I've made big leaps in terms of how long i can survive for and what i feel is a good base since i started lurking here and on the reddit sub, as well as watching other people play it. 

[phelaen]

can we please not lower the difficulty to suit all.
games are so easy nowadays because they pander to the lowest common denominator.

[watermelen671]

34 minutes ago, phelaen said:

can we please not lower the difficulty to suit all.
games are so easy nowadays because they pander to the lowest common denominator.

Okay, now this is something that pisses me off.

Spoiler

If something is too hard for your TARGET audience, then, IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A PROFIT, you MUST change it to keep people playing your game.

Where's my :clap: emote, because that's exactly what I was doing as I was thinking that. 

I'm not saying we should change the game so that your Farmville Grandma can play it, what I, and most likely the MAJORITY of players are saying is it'd be greatly appreciated if we DIDN'T need to have 70 odd tabs open just to play the damn game.

Here's the :clap: again:

Spoiler

If you spend more time looking up how to play a game than actually playing the game, something has gone terribly wrong.

Now I'm not saying this about ONI, I enjoy playing the game as is. However what I am saying is applicable for all games in general.

Tl;dr If you want to have a hard time, go wrestle an alligator while boxing a bear.

Also, when I first read the title of this post, I thought they were talking about accessibility in terms of UI scaling...and tbh, it's completely terrible.

If you want to zoom the GUI above 110%, everything starts overlapping, and it just becomes a mess.

[phelaen]

if there was a game where you had to wrestle an alligator while boxing a bear i would give that a try.

I don't want this somewhat challenging game to be made easier to suit a larger audience, i like that it is not that easy.
 

the GUI thing needs a fix yes.

[Greystar]

I've never done math in this game.  Learned everything through trial and error and found something that works in one game may not work in the next (see geyser dormancy).

[clickrush]

@Ghengis_John The mistake you made is to assume too many things w/o experimenting and to overcomplicate things in your head before you try them. For example cooling your base and the water inputs that actually need to be cooled is a non-issue after you figure out the basics. The only way you can get problems in ONI is if you accept too many duplicants too fast. Take it slow and experiment, and you'll see that the game is very accessible.

[blash365]

I dont think the comparison with DT holds. In DT you basically have only 1 Dupe. I am pretty sure ONI would need just as much calculation if you would play it with only 1 dupe. I am hungry? Then i better get to cooking. I am suffucating? Then i better walk into a blue area.

Since doing all this micromanagement for 20 dupes at the same time, you have to do some planing and that usually involves math.