Occupational Upgrade (Agricultural Question)

[asveron]

For those who started playing, can you give us your impression on agricultural balance?

Specifically:

1. Are you able to survive on mealwood? Or are you effectively encouraged to go after high tier food?

2. Do high tier food still cost a lot of water, and thereby stop you from supporting a large base?

[Kabrute]

no, yes, yes

[asveron]

2 hours ago, Kabrute said:

no, yes, yes

care to elaborate how?

I'm really exited about the patch yet hesitant to play preview

[Kabrute]

jobs have tiers, higher tiers have higher requirements(decor And food) but also benefits(buffs).  Still need lots of water to feed lots of people, but now I'm thinking I wont be turning my fert to coal as much...

[The Plum Gate]

I just gave up on a map - I was just starting to get the feel for farming - it seems like we start with less rations than we had before - 16K,kcal? ...Muckroot finds are around 800kcal. so are a lot of other drops - I found I was having to use the microbe musher to get up and running ( at which point I realized how very little algae I had and how long it was taking me to get research done ). I think the kcal to weight ratio has also changed ( with regard to meal lice at least )... I seemed to have amassed a great deal of kcal in an old save.

From what I've seen:

• mushrooms: 7.5 c, ( 4kg slime ) /c, 2400kcal
• mealwood: 3 c, ( 10kg dirt ) /c, 800kcal, edit: 600 kcal
• bristle blossom, 6 c, ( 20kg water ) /c, 1600kcal
• pincha pepper, 8 c, ( 35kg polluted water, 1kg phosphorite ) /c
• balm lily, 12 c ( habitat requirements ), 2kg lily flower
• thimble reed, 2 c, ( 160kg polluted water ) /c, 1 reed fiber
• sleet wheat, 18 c (4kg fertilizer, 20kg water ) /c 18 grains + 10% chance of seed drop ( forgive me but this seems like 18, possibly 19 grains )

All seed drops are 10% chance. I have no idea how these numbers are affected by the farm station + greenhouse yet.

I will say, however that all of the recipes on the electric grill now produce more Kcals out than input ingredients with the exception of pickled meal breaking even, and the others where there's a seed or ingredient count. The food ranges in quality from -1 to 5 with an at least one food item at every number and 2 at superb. All of the recipes appear to have changed ( either their input kcals or output kcals possibly ).

Since I wasn't around while the tubular upgrade was out,  I can't say much more.

Screw it, I'l just dump a bunch of screen shots right here...

[Coolthulhu]

Dupes now get properly mad on bad food. Something like 5% stress for one bad meal.

I've seen +150% stress/cycle during bad meal for one dupe.

[PhailRaptor]

Looking at BBQ...  that attribute "Soul Food"....  what does it do?

[The Plum Gate]

8 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

Dupes now get properly mad on bad food. Something like 5% stress for one bad meal.

I've seen +150% stress/cycle during bad meal for one dupe.

Yeah, my base was stuggling with a CO2 problem at first, then I started looking at the food issue, thought I only ran the base for 14 cycles - there was some stress from food so I started looking into food processing and it seems early game brings back the want for better food later for sure. I think the weight of some of the food items relative to their kcal count has changed so this might avert any early storage crisis.

 

4 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Looking at BBQ...  that attribute "Soul Food"....  what does it do?

I think the better the meals give stress relieving bonuses.

[goboking]

My reactions/comments to the information and pictures posted above:

• I'm glad seed generation has been toned down.  At the current drop rate we were inundated with seeds we either couldn't use or didn't need, so this should help curtail that quite a bit.
• I appreciate what they were going for with the old system wherein cooking yielded better quality food at the cost of kcal loss, but overall I think this new system is going to be better for a wider range of players.
• Dupes are currently capped at 4,000 kcals.  Assuming dupes eat before their calorie count hits 0 (I don't know if this is the case or not, to be honest), then these 4,000 kcal meals will be wasting a fairly large percentage of kcals.  What's more, such high calorie meals means our dupes will only have to eat every three to four days, which means they'll be forgoing the stress relief offered by the Mess Hall.  That's a double whammy for eating what's supposed to be the best foods in the game.
• Mushrooms got nerfed hard.  Before this update Fried Mushrooms, Pepper Bread, and Barbecue were all Good quality (+1 under the old system).  Under this new system Pepper Bread and Barbecue are now Superb (+5) and Fried Mushroom is Poor (+1).  There is now zero reason to grow mushrooms after the early game since its quality will be below what our dupes expect.  I'd be okay with this if mushrooms were also used in a new late game recipe, but they aren't; they become strictly obsolete, meaning any effort we put into slime factors and mushroom farms is ultimately wasted.  I don't like this change.
• Bristle Berries now require 20 kg of water per cycle, down from 80.  This is a huge (and much needed, imho) reduction in water consumption.  They were simply too thirsty before.  Cooling and piping that much irrigation every day was an uphill climb and the returns were either middling (Poor for raw Bristle Berries and Standard for cooked Gristle Berries) or very end game (Great for Stuffed Berries, the best and most ingredient-intensive food in the game).  I like this change.
• Pincha pepperplants have gone from a 22-cycle growth cycle to an 8-cycle one?  Is this correct?  Assuming they still produce four pincha peppers per yield that's a huge increase.  This allows us to more easily transition from Frost Buns to Pepper Bread (and Barbecue when renewable meat sources are eventually added to the game).  This is another change I like.

[osefcomplet]

Does anybody know what's the difference between farmer and seasoned farmer ?

@goboking Mushroom is still the only solution for big colony as you don't need water, + with the cycle reduction from 10 to 7.5 and the recipe boost I see this update as the mushy update.

[The Plum Gate]

5 minutes ago, goboking said:

• Dupes are currently capped at 4,000 kcals.  Assuming dupes eat before their calorie count hits 0 (I don't know if this is the case or not, to be honest), then these 4,000 kcal meals will be wasting a fairly large percentage of kcals.  What's more, such high calorie meals means our dupes will only have to eat every three to four days, which means they'll be forgoing the stress relief offered by the Mess Hall.  That's a double whammy for eating what's supposed to be the best foods in the game.
• Mushrooms got nerfed hard.  Before this update Fried Mushrooms, Pepper Bread, and Barbecue were all Good quality (+1 under the old system).  Under this new system Pepper Bread and Barbecue are now Superb (+5) and Fried Mushroom is Poor (+1).  There is now zero reason to grow mushrooms after the early game since its quality will be below what our dupes expect.  I'd be okay with this if mushrooms were also used in a new late game recipe, but they aren't; they become strictly obsolete, meaning any effort we put into slime factors and mushroom farms is ultimately wasted.  I don't like this change.
• Bristle Berries now require 20 kg of water per cycle, down from 80.  This is a huge (and much needed, imho) reduction in water consumption.  They were simply too thirsty before.  Cooling and piping that much irrigation every day was an uphill climb and the returns were either middling (Poor for raw Bristle Berries and Standard for cooked Gristle Berries) or very end game (Great for Stuffed Berries, the best and most ingredient-intensive food in the game).  I like this change.
• Pincha pepperplants have gone from a 22-cycle growth cycle to an 8-cycle one?  Is this correct?  Assuming they still produce four pincha peppers per yield that's a huge increase.  This allows us to more easily transition from Frost Buns to Pepper Bread (and Barbecue when renewable meat sources are eventually added to the game).  This is another change I like.

My diplicants eat when they reach 2000kcals, so they're only picking up at most a 2000kcal portion per day. And they're eating unusual weights of food as well.

I had the game open when I jotted those numbers down, yes, pincha pepper is on an 8 cycle timer as of the current build preview.

I'm not sure what to think of the mushrooms but I'm actually planting bristle blossoms now and will see about those soonish.

3 minutes ago, osefcomplet said:

Does anybody know what's the difference between farmer and seasoned farmer ?

Farmers supposedly increase the seed yield as well as decrease growth time - so I'm thinking it doubles this chance going from one to another and perhaps decreases the growth time another little bit..

[Saturnus]

My comment is that since all foods higher than standard require pincha pepper nuts all bases are doomed to unsustainability in the long run. The fertilizer for pincha peppers remains non-renewable so eventually your highly skilled dupes will have to settle for eating poor or standard quality food.

I'm not sure how much that will negatively affect a long term base yet though so I withhold judgement on that part.

[Technoincubus]

So most games will be rush for geysers. No geyser=restart. Plus, cooling your base will be one of the highest priorities because berries will be a must

[Kabrute]

No because water is renewable, food poison your dupes after you get plumbing installed, will just cost you sand or heat depending on your skills

[TheOlz]

44 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

My comment is that since all foods higher than standard require pincha pepper nuts all bases are doomed to unsustainability in the long run. The fertilizer for pincha peppers remains non-renewable so eventually your highly skilled dupes will have to settle for eating poor or standard quality food.

I'm not sure how much that will negatively affect a long term base yet though so I withhold judgement on that part.

Very good point, renewable phosphorus has become more of a requirement for long term play - hopefully we will see that implemented soon

[Guest]

Also a big note is that they fixed the water input for sleet wheat plants. They actually do require now 20 kg/cycle of water! Before they required 9g/s or 5.4kg/cycle.

[Saturnus]

Just now, turbonl64 said:

Also a big note is that they fixed the water input for sleet wheat plants. They actually do require now 20 kg/cycle of water! Before they required 9g/s or 5.4kg/cycle.

Well, only if you used the valve trick  So they actually just fixed the bug that allowed you to use less water than it should. Same with bristle blossom, btw.

[Guest]

Just now, Saturnus said:

Well, only if you used the valve trick  So they actually just fixed the bug that allowed you to use less water than it should. Same with bristle blossom, btw.

I used the valve trick purely to control temperature better. Sure, it's a bug fix, but sleet wheat should overall have been given a better boost. Although the higher cal. is nice.

[Kabrute]

with mealwood being dirt only, have to cook fertlizer to make it renewable and at that complexity gonna be going with better food pdq

[goboking]

54 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

My comment is that since all foods higher than standard require pincha pepper nuts all bases are doomed to unsustainability in the long run. The fertilizer for pincha peppers remains non-renewable so eventually your highly skilled dupes will have to settle for eating poor or standard quality food.

According to @The Plum Gate pincha pepperplants require 1kg of phosphorite/cycle.  A quick glance around my asteroid shows the lowest density of phosphoite to be a little more than 300kg per tile (with mid-700s being the high end that I'm seeing).  You lose half that when it's excavated, so a single tile of phosphorite can sustain a single pincha pepperplant for at least 150 cycles.  Yes, phosphorite can eventually run out.  But practically speaking, very few players will ever stick with a colony long enough to see this happen.

[osefcomplet]

18 minutes ago, goboking said:

But practically speaking, very few players will ever stick with a colony long enough to see this happen.

There are still players arguing about using sand you know ...

[The Plum Gate]

16 minutes ago, goboking said:

According to @The Plum Gate pincha pepperplants require 1kg of phosphorite/cycle.  A quick glance around my asteroid shows the lowest density of phosphoite to be a little more than 300kg per tile (with mid-700s being the high end that I'm seeing).  You lose half that when it's excavated, so a single tile of phosphorite can sustain a single pincha pepperplant for at least 150 cycles.  Yes, phosphorite can eventually run out.  But practically speaking, very few players will ever stick with a colony long enough to see this happen.

Yeah, that's probably the least demanding mineral wise - the polluted water is another story.

What would be more interesting is to get the greenhouse set up and see what kind of time delta there is with and without best-effect farming practices. There might be less need all together vs tubular farming. I don't have screenshots to compare the old recipes, but I'm thinking we may be getting more kcals after processing than we were before.

[Saturnus]

8 minutes ago, osefcomplet said:

There are still players arguing about using sand you know ...

We have developed a proven conceptual way of producing sand. Although with the tepidizer bug fixed we now have to use magma for the heating which also eventually runs out after a few million cycles.

There is on the other hand no way of making phosphorite at all.

4 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said:

I don't have screenshots to compare the old recipes, but I'm thinking we may be getting more kcals after processing than we were before.

ONI wiki to the rescue

https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Electric_Grill

But overall all foods got buffed which removes a major complaint with the old system. Processing food removed kcals in the old system whereas it should add kcals like it does now.

[The Plum Gate]

3 hours ago, Saturnus said:

ONI wiki to the rescue

https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Electric_Grill

But overall all foods got buffed which removes a major complaint with the old system. Processing food removed kcals in the old system whereas it should add kcals like it does now.

Useful for once. Looks like everything got buffed. Including the weight of food items - now I may be speculating, but it looks like all food weighs the same to me where a (1:1 ratio) of kcal to grams, or 1000kcal = 1kg of food, which would explain why when I loaded an old save, that my available kcals went through the roof with regards to stored food. Seems like a practical refinement with regards to dealing with its mass.

[TheOlz]

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

with the tepidizer bug fixed

tbh, I'm a little bummed out by this, I feel like we'd only just scratched the surface of what could be done with super high temps, and magma is going to be awkward.  Workable, sure, just awkward.  I was having a lot of fun making free tungsten and gold  lol