Wolfgang is better than Wigfrid. (probably)

[Toros]

1 hour ago, Endedbox45 said:

My god,

what have I started?

You didn’t start anything, you just brought it to the surface.

We’ve been arguing about this for literal years now.

[minespatch]

9 hours ago, Endedbox45 said:

My god,

what have I started?

Just another day on the Klei forums.
To quote Roule Julia: "But for me... IT was a Tuesday".

[Donke60]

15 hours ago, Endedbox45 said:

My god,

what have I started?

Oh its you again, we have a two rules on the forums
1 don't talk about characters or character balance.
2 don't talk about your survival strats or anything that you personally do when you play

So how you been? I've been great woke up ate stuff played forge fun stuff and I want banana pancakes.
 

[Toros]

22 minutes ago, Donke60 said:

Oh its you again, we have a two rules on the forums
1 don't talk about characters or character balance.
2 don't talk about your survival strats or anything that you personally do when you play

So how you been? I've been great woke up ate stuff played forge fun stuff and I want banana pancakes.
 

It really shouldn't be controversial to discuss character balance, and most fighting and pvp games are able to make tier lists without it turning into a mess.  This community has a subpopulation who does a lot of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_reasoning and it really degrades and derails the conversation.

Add in projection of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion like accusing someone of needing to "always be right."  I've been taught about character strategies I didn't know about multiple times over the years I've been part of this community, and then all over again with forge where I initially thought Wolfgang's mighty form was pointless.  (It's still a bit weak compared to Wx and I still don't know how it refreshes, but it has some definite uses).  Unfortunately when character balance is discussed I often have to wade though a lot of unfounded opinions to get to actual discussion and analysis.

[Dreamscape18459]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

It really shouldn't be controversial to discuss character balance, and most fighting and pvp games are able to make tier lists without it turning into a mess.  This community has a subpopulation who does a lot of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_reasoning and it really degrades and derails the conversation.

Characters themselves in this game are designed to provide a unique experience; one of the ways Klei achieved this is through changed interactions with other in game mechanics. Some players legitimately prefer certain characters over others as they provide a unique experience that other characters cannot match. Its an emotional attachment certainly to a unique experience; this isn't limited to Don't Starve but included every game which utilizes this design philosophy. (Team Fortress 2 is a great example; plenty of casual players hate community's "competitive" because its rules either outright ban half the classes and/or removes nearly every weapon which would make them viable in a competitive setting. Banning classes/implementing artificial rules that cause certain classes, and their unique experience they provide, to be removed completely alienates players who prefer a classes unique experience.)

We can certainly compare Wigfrid and Wolfgang but to declare one strictly "superior" over the other depends on a definition of "superior" which varies between players. If we were to look at characters purely by potential damage output.

Wolfgang 2X when mighty

Wigfrid 1.25X always

If our definition of a "superior" character is a maximum damage output then Wolfgang is by definition superior. However this simple example does not include how characters damage output is ultimately fueled (Wolfgang's damage output is fueled with 3x increased hunger drain. Wigfrid's damage output can only be filled with meat but at a 1x drain.) and this example doesn't include the vast myriad of other changed interactions each character has with other mechanics. (For a few examples Wolfgang has higher hunger drain when normal and suffers slightly more from sanity aura's, which is greatly offset by his damage increase in mighty. Monsters generally die twice as quickly which means he is exposed to sanity aura's for a shorter duration of time. Additionally with high hunger Wolfgang gets a lot of value out of meaty stews. Wigfrid gets health and sanity on hit but has a low hunger and sanity pool. Despite the sanity on hit she is more likely to go insane than most characters in prolonged combat due to low sanity pool. Additionally while she can only eat meat she has a low hunger pool and does not get as much value out of meaty stew's as most of the other characters.)

We can discuss balance, and certainly some characters have a clear strength over others, but I don't think declaring one character overall "superior" over another is a good idea or even possible to do. (Wes is actually a great character for attacking slurtlemounds, houndmounds, and whack moles as his lower damage output means he is less likely to destroy them. I often play Wigfrid and her higher damage output means she is far more likely to accidentally kill moles than other characters as moles occasionally take damage due to caves/other mobs.) We could try to make a general tier list for the game but I think it would be far too difficult to do. Making multiple tier lists covering characters individual strengths would definitely be easier as every character excels in at least one mechanic.

[Rellimarual]

22 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

Despite the sanity on hit she is more likely to go insane than most characters in prolonged combat due to low sanity pool.

This hasn’t been my experience, even when using a dark sword. When fighting Klaus or DF with a Wicker using a hambat, she’d be fighting shadows at the end while I had a full brain.

[Dreamscape18459]

1 hour ago, Rellimarual said:

This hasn’t been my experience, even when using a dark sword. When fighting Klaus or DF with a Wicker using a hambat, she’d be fighting shadows at the end while I had a full brain.

In vanilla DST DFLY doesn't have an insanity aura and Klaus only seems to have one during his second phase. A more accurate statement would have been fighting enemies with large insanity aura's; the dark sword/night armor do add some noise but they are fairly minor. (-20 and -10 sanity/min.) Deerclops has -400/min sanity aura and would drain around 6.68 sanity/sec. Disregarding Wigfrid's sanity on hit she would become insane after 16 seconds. Wilson/200 sanity characters would become insane after 27 seconds while wicker would be insane at 32 seconds. So we can see from this.

Wilson/200 sanity becomes target able by nightmares after 27 seconds of exposure

Wolfgang becomes target able by nightmares after 24.3 seconds of exposure

Wendy becomes targetable by nightmares after 33.75 seconds of exposure

Wickerbottom/250 sanity becomes target able by nightmares after 32 seconds of exposure.

Wigfrid/120 sanity (Not Willow.) becomes target able by nightmares after 16 seconds.

This does not include Wigfrid's sanity on hit as I am not sure how how to calculate that into this but I imagine that she might become insane slightly before Wilson and most characters but I don't have the math to prove this hypothesis. This also doesn't include plenty of other factors (Insanity aura falloff being a notable one.) so this needs a lot more work before it could be a good reference to insanity. I also rounded down as 1.003125 seconds of exposure is around 6.6875 sanity lost. (I valued 1 second as 6.8 which is not correct but ok for rounding.) I am really bad at math so if I made any major mistakes please correct me.

 

Edit: This doesn't include monsters with smaller aura's (like spiders) where Wigfrid's sanity on hit is incredibly strong.

[Toros]

4 hours ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

Making multiple tier lists covering characters individual strengths would definitely be easier as every character excels in at least one mechanic.

Everything you said before this point I can largely agree with but I think this conclusion is false or requires the addendum "and not everything a character excels in is valuable."

Take Willow for example.  She gets sanity standing near a fire (generally an inefficient use of time) has a long lasting torch with a smaller radius she can cook with (questionable advantage given torches and campfires aren't resource intensive) and she takes less damage from fire (which is rare outside of firefly and not that threatening in general).

What is the value of that compared to say, anyone else with access to resources they'll have 30 seconds into playing?

Every character is viable in DST, and they all can overcome any challenge.  The question is the amount and type of resources they'll need to consume to do it.  Wendy and Wes need more weapons and time to overcome a boss, Wes and Wolfgang need more food to survive.

What this tends to mean is that saved time and saved effort become the primary stats that determine a character's mechanical strength.  Wickerbottom saves enormous amounts of time, as does an overcharged Wx with his huge speed buff.  Wolfgang while mighty both moves and ends fights faster, and gets up to double the use out of weapons before they wear out.

I've written a whole long analysis of Wilson's beard but the primary conclusions are that Wilson 1) isn't a good source of beard hair, 2) his beard provides a moderate insulation bonus which is valuable less than 1/4 the year (and an even more minor disadvantage during summer) and 3) beard hair isn't particularly useful to begin with.

Wolfgang, Wx, and Wickerbottom are grossly overpowered mechanically as they have huge upsides beyond what other characters have and minimal downsides.  Willow and Wes have minor perks and significant downsides.  I consider Wigfrid herself balanced because she has valuable and significant upsides with downsides that continue to matter throughout the game.

[Dreamscape18459]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Everything you said before this point I can largely agree with but I think this conclusion is false or requires the addendum "and not everything a character excels in is valuable."

Take Willow for example.  She gets sanity standing near a fire (generally an inefficient use of time) has a long lasting torch with a smaller radius she can cook with (questionable advantage given torches and campfires aren't resource intensive) and she takes less damage from fire (which is rare outside of firefly and not that threatening in general).

What is the value of that compared to say, anyone else with access to resources they'll have 30 seconds into playing?

Every character is viable in DST, and they all can overcome any challenge.  The question is the amount and type of resources they'll need to consume to do it.  Wendy and Wes need more weapons and time to overcome a boss, Wes and Wolfgang need more food to survive.

What this tends to mean is that saved time and saved effort become the primary stats that determine a character's mechanical strength.  Wickerbottom saves enormous amounts of time, as does an overcharged Wx with his huge speed buff.  Wolfgang while mighty both moves and ends fights faster, and gets up to double the use out of weapons before they wear out.

I've written a whole long analysis of Wilson's beard but the primary conclusions are that Wilson 1) isn't a good source of beard hair, 2) his beard provides a moderate insulation bonus which is valuable less than 1/4 the year (and an even more minor disadvantage during summer) and 3) beard hair isn't particularly useful to begin with.

Wolfgang, Wx, and Wickerbottom are grossly overpowered mechanically as they have huge upsides beyond what other characters have and minimal downsides.  Willow and Wes have minor perks and significant downsides.  I consider Wigfrid herself balanced because she has valuable and significant upsides with downsides that continue to matter throughout the game.

For your first point value is a subjective term among different people. If a player values another source of light and mobile food cooker then Willow is subjectively better than Wicker/Wolf/every other character. Is it a valuable skill? Another source of light is nice and some players would value it...but light is so incredibly easy to acquire (Miner hats and Lanterns are very strong and the miner hat is waterproof.) and one of Willow's lighter's strengths (It does not burn faster in the rain) is kinda redundant as her lighter gets wet in rain draining wielders sanity. (The torch and miners hat do not.) Also you completely left out Bernie; he is extremely strong and a lot of players underestimate him. (Absolutely amazing for the Fuelweaver fight and book farming for krampus as players don't have to deal with nightmares and can focus solely on fighting the boss/farming.) The one issue I have with Bernie is he basically lasts forever; a single Willow can log onto a server once, craft as many as needed, and leave and never come back. The server doesn't need Willow to utilize Bernie's strengths once he has been crafted as he can be easily repaired. (As opposed to Wigfrid who's unique gear wears out and requires an active Wigfrid on the server to make more gear.) Theoretically Bernie eventually expires and turns into beard hair after 3 days of being on the ground but I have never actually seen this happen in game.

I am not as familiar with what makes a character in this game strong but is it really saved time and resources that dictate strength? In RTS games it is a definitely relevant thing but I don't have as much time to research this game. Characters strengths in this game do save time but this is based on the premise time is valuable. Time is ultimately a limited resource that dictates what actions a player can do in a certain period; its definitely relevant but I don't think its as important as it is in a PVP focused game. I can think of a few good examples of characters saving time.

Willow: Bernie tanks nightmare's so players can focus on whatever task they have on hand.

Wolfgang: Deals 2x damage ending the fight quicker (Which means he takes half as much negative sanity and less than half the damage due to his hp "inflating" when mighty. Although Wolfgang does actually take a little more than half sanity due to his "penalty.")

Wendy: Abigail is great at taking out weaker mobs quickly. (Especially spiders.) Also sanity stations are so broken. (+13 sanity/second is absolutely ridiculous.)

WX78: Has an extremely strong ruins rush and super movespeed (And immunity to freezing.) He certainly saves a lot of walking time.

Wickerbottom: Books are so, so strong (This has been discussed so much.) and they save a lot of time gathering resources.

Woodie: He cuts wood fast (Saving time) and spends half as many resources on followers but he probably will need to consume wood at some point.

Maxwell: Shadows gather resources for him. (Aside from the initial investment he needs not invest into more tools conserving flint/gold.)

Wigfrid: Does not need as much health/sanity restoration as she gets both on hit and can end fights sooner. Her helmets are incredibly cheap and don't cost pigskin. (Pig huts being up sooner is really nice.)

Winona: She crafts stuff twice as quickly (Very nice for occasional situations where armor/weapons break in combat),  can craft an alternative sewing kit (Letting players invest their hounds teeth into darts.) and...........doesn't waste 10 minutes trying to find a touchstone because she can dodge charlies first hit?

To compare Wolfgang and Wigfrid they do save servers time gathering materials. I personally would prefer to have a Wigfrid as getting pig huts up sooner is very nice; I value pig huts (Food and pigskins specifically; Wigfrid's gonna need that meat. Maybe protection and resource gathering on occasions.) But I also mostly play on servers with 10+ people where Wolfgang's damage output is not as relevant. In groups of 4 or less I really appreciate Wolfgang's damage output on bosses. (Wolfgang is basically like having two characters damage output but requiring resources for 1.5 characters.)

I also don't think Wolfgang is overpowered. I personally think he is a little underwhelming, especially compared to Wigfrid who has so much utility. The only two characters I would consider too strong are Wickerbottom and Wendy. (Sanity stations mainly carrying Wendy. Prior to the Beequeen Crown she was much weaker.)

 

Edit: Actually what are peoples opinions if we were to discuss Wigfrid vs Wolfgang in the Forge gamemode? A lot of this discussion seems to be centered around the main game. (And characters underwear for some reason.......)

[MrDeepDarkmind]

People caring about damage tactics but not knowing Maxwell is the best character of them all

[Spaartan]

Just now, MrDeepDarkmind said:

People caring about damage tactics but not knowing Maxwell is the best character of them all

I have to interrupt you, but it has come to my attention that you do not know that Wes is Best.

I don't fight that much in dst and stick to Wendy because I don't get ANYTHING other than lag. I can kite tho when my ping is less than 400.

[DatShadowJK]

just....

why another one

[MrDeepDarkmind]

1 hour ago, Spaartan said:

I have to interrupt you, but it has come to my attention that you do not know that Wes is Best.

I don't fight that much in dst and stick to Wendy because I don't get ANYTHING other than lag. I can kite tho when my ping is less than 400.

Wes is best if you have the survivor skin

that shows that you are a veteran Wes player

[Toros]

1 hour ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

For your first point value is a subjective term among different people. If a player values another source of light and mobile food cooker then Willow is subjectively better than Wicker/Wolf/every other character. Is it a valuable skill? Another source of light is nice and some players would value it...but light is so incredibly easy to acquire (Miner hats and Lanterns are very strong and the miner hat is waterproof.) and one of Willow's lighter's strengths (It does not burn faster in the rain) is kinda redundant as her lighter gets wet in rain draining wielders sanity. (The torch and miners hat do not.) Also you completely left out Bernie; he is extremely strong and a lot of players underestimate him. (Absolutely amazing for the Fuelweaver fight and book farming for krampus as players don't have to deal with nightmares and can focus solely on fighting the boss/farming.) The one issue I have with Bernie is he basically lasts forever; a single Willow can log onto a server once, craft as many as needed, and leave and never come back. The server doesn't need Willow to utilize Bernie's strengths once he has been crafted as he can be easily repaired. (As opposed to Wigfrid who's unique gear wears out and requires an active Wigfrid on the server to make more gear.) Theoretically Bernie eventually expires and turns into beard hair after 3 days of being on the ground but I have never actually seen this happen in game.

I am not as familiar with what makes a character in this game strong but is it really saved time and resources that dictate strength? In RTS games it is a definitely relevant thing but I don't have as much time to research this game. Characters strengths in this game do save time but this is based on the premise time is valuable. Time is ultimately a limited resource that dictates what actions a player can do in a certain period; its definitely relevant but I don't think its as important as it is in a PVP focused game. I can think of a few good examples of characters saving time.

Willow: Bernie tanks nightmare's so players can focus on whatever task they have on hand.

Wolfgang: Deals 2x damage ending the fight quicker (Which means he takes half as much negative sanity and less than half the damage due to his hp "inflating" when mighty. Although Wolfgang does actually take a little more than half sanity due to his "penalty.")

Wendy: Abigail is great at taking out weaker mobs quickly. (Especially spiders.) Also sanity stations are so broken. (+13 sanity/second is absolutely ridiculous.)

WX78: Has an extremely strong ruins rush and super movespeed (And immunity to freezing.) He certainly saves a lot of walking time.

Wickerbottom: Books are so, so strong (This has been discussed so much.) and they save a lot of time gathering resources.

Woodie: He cuts wood fast (Saving time) and spends half as many resources on followers but he probably will need to consume wood at some point.

Maxwell: Shadows gather resources for him. (Aside from the initial investment he needs not invest into more tools conserving flint/gold.)

Wigfrid: Does not need as much health/sanity restoration as she gets both on hit and can end fights sooner. Her helmets are incredibly cheap and don't cost pigskin. (Pig huts being up sooner is really nice.)

Winona: She crafts stuff twice as quickly (Very nice for occasional situations where armor/weapons break in combat),  can craft an alternative sewing kit (Letting players invest their hounds teeth into darts.) and...........doesn't waste 10 minutes trying to find a touchstone because she can dodge charlies first hit?

To compare Wolfgang and Wigfrid they do save servers time gathering materials. I personally would prefer to have a Wigfrid as getting pig huts up sooner is very nice; I value pig huts (Food and pigskins specifically; Wigfrid's gonna need that meat. Maybe protection and resource gathering on occasions.) But I also mostly play on servers with 10+ people where Wolfgang's damage output is not as relevant. In groups of 4 or less I really appreciate Wolfgang's damage output on bosses. (Wolfgang is basically like having two characters damage output but requiring resources for 1.5 characters.)

I also don't think Wolfgang is overpowered. I personally think he is a little underwhelming, especially compared to Wigfrid who has so much utility. The only two characters I would consider too strong are Wickerbottom and Wendy. (Sanity stations mainly carrying Wendy. Prior to the Beequeen Crown she was much weaker.)

 

Edit: Actually what are peoples opinions if we were to discuss Wigfrid vs Wolfgang in the Forge gamemode? A lot of this discussion seems to be centered around the main game. (And characters underwear for some reason.......)

You seem to be fairly new to the game but are doing a good job of analysis so far, and I'll answer your question about the forge but wanted to touch on a few topics you've mentioned.

-The game and bosses were really balanced around 2-6 people maximum, having 10+ would absolutely trivialize a lot of aspects of bosses if those ten are at all competent.

-Sanity, and thus Bernie, are a lot more minor than one would think coming into the game.  Being insane is a very minor downside for the most part and since shadow monsters are easy to kite and an excellent source of nightmare fuel, the only time I try to be fully sane is right before fighting a boss during the first year.  (After that it's relatively easy to have taffy, cooked greencaps, cooked cactus flesh) to restore arbitrary amounts of sanity on demand.  Otherwise especially for people like Wolfgang, you can easily just kill the occasional shadow monster and ignore maintaining your sanity completely.  Bernie is still convenient for boss fight

-The general trend in this game is that food becomes more and more abundant the longer the world goes, and the typical pub server resetting shortly after reaching winter is really not how the game was intended to be played.  Within that context, Wolfgang is somewhat underpowered because there aren't any bosses to fight and no consistent food sources like bee boxes to solve his hunger issues forever.  Once he reaches that point (or has a belt of hunger which reduces his maximum hunger drain to 1.8x) he stays perma-mighty and enjoys all the advantages that brings (don't forget the up to 25% movespeed boost which also saves a lot of time and means he's even faster with a walking cane).  I play a lot of Wolfgang because I play with my fiancee and with two people having him is quite convenient.

-Wigfrid has decent utility but mid and lategame there are a number of convenient food options that she can't utilize.  Bee boxes can produce 6 honey/box/day, raw honey has great stats, and can be made into taffy for easy sanity restoration.  Dragonpies are the fastest healing food as they have no meat (so have the fast eating animation like berries do) and heal 40 hp each.  Her battle spear is replaced by hambats and dark swords by mid-late game and stat management becomes easier, leaving her main lategame perk being cheaper helmets at the cost of a restricted diet.

-Wendy's ability to make sanity stations is quite convenient, but there are still a lot of ways to restore sanity, and again sanity itself can safely be ignored most of the time.  Farming spiders is something that can be done without taking damage for all characters relatively quickly and easily (though not on the scale of Wendy or Webber via "spider civil wars") which relatively speaking makes it less valuable when comparing their relative strengths.  I still consider her to be as good as Wigfrid, who is quite good.

Part of why time saved is so important for experienced players is a lot of things in this game are on a timer.  You need to be prepared for the next season before it arrives or things become very difficult, and to beat every boss solo and thus overcome every challenge can easily take 2 in-game years.  Having better winter gear when winter starts means you can be more productive during that season, only increasing the resource surplus you can generate.  Surplus resources can be reinvested into things like bee boxes or mushroom farms that passively produce useful things that make the next resource-draining challenge (cave dives, firefly, bee queen) happen sooner, and it continues on in that fashion from there. Most experienced players don't benefit as much from large teams of inexperienced people as they don't need to be revived from being a ghost, and tend to have the extra food and resources they produce be consumed by other players who are undercontributing and then die and leave later.

There's a lot of other nuance I can discuss with you but I think this post is long enough for now.

Regarding forge, Wolfgang I initially found to be underwhelming as his mighty form is triggered by getting low health and only lasts ten seconds.  Wx is the most valuable tank by far (despite only 150 hp) due to his shock stunning bosses and Wolfgang would be second.  In forge, Wolf's mighty form brings double damage, huge speed boost (enough to dodge Boarilla while wearing stone armor) and damage reduction for 10 seconds, which technically makes him the most durable tank.  Wigfrid has a unique weapon that is great against the turtles but her lower aggro rate makes her less appealing as a tank.  I think she's underrated as her battle cry boosts overall dps and being able to switch between melee and darts is great for the scorpion wave.  She doesn't have the impact on making the game easier to win like Wx, Wicker, and Wilson do, however.

[HamBatter]

18 minutes ago, Toros said:

-Wigfrid has decent utility but mid and lategame there are a number of convenient food options that she can't utilize.  Bee boxes can produce 6 honey/box/day, raw honey has great stats, and can be made into taffy for easy sanity restoration.  Dragonpies are the fastest healing food as they have no meat (so have the fast eating animation like berries do) and heal 40 hp each.

Except she doesn't need those foods because of her vampirism and 25% extra def.

It's also rare to be in a situation where eating animation matters without knowing that you're putting yourself in it, in which case you would have recovered your stats beforehand or popped a jellybean.

[Toros]

28 minutes ago, HamBatter said:

Except she doesn't need those foods because of her vampirism and 25% extra def.

It's also rare to be in a situation where eating animation matters without knowing that you're putting yourself in it, in which case you would have recovered your stats beforehand or popped a jellybean.

Yeah, I really should've also mentioned mushrooms which are cheap and potent for healing.  Dragonpies are more of a luxury item but the extra def is basically just more max hp.  Wig has pretty weak mass sanity restoration compared to other characters as meat based sanity restoration (jerky) takes a lot longer to produce.

[HamBatter]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Yeah, I really should've also mentioned mushrooms which are cheap and potent for healing.  Dragonpies are more of a luxury item but the extra def is basically just more max hp.  Wig has pretty weak mass sanity restoration compared to other characters as meat based sanity restoration (jerky) takes a lot longer to produce.

Damage reduction = more max hp + more value from healing sources

You still don't need the mushrooms for healing with vampirism and def in normal play. Sanity also doesn't matter much with vampirism and her 25% more attack, but if you really do need it (in very few cases) and don't have access to jerkies or enemies you can sleep.

[Toros]

8 minutes ago, HamBatter said:

Damage reduction = more max hp + more value from healing sources

You still don't need the mushrooms for healing with vampirism and def in normal play. Sanity also doesn't matter much with vampirism and her 25% more attack, but if you really do need it (in very few cases) and don't have access to jerkies or enemies you can sleep.

Both Wolfgang and Wigfrid get more value out of healing than other characters.  Wolfgang gets up to 100% bonus health if you let yourself get close to starving, more realistically you get about 50% bonus healing if you heal in normal form and take damage while full mighty.

[HamBatter]

15 minutes ago, Toros said:

Both Wolfgang and Wigfrid get more value out of healing than other characters.  Wolfgang gets up to 100% bonus health if you let yourself get close to starving, more realistically you get about 50% bonus healing if you heal in normal form and take damage while full mighty.

Realistically you'll eat healing food while mighty and waste the potential of actively getting more out of healing. As a passive it might not reach the max potential of Wolfgang, but overall it is better.

[Toros]

7 minutes ago, HamBatter said:

Realistically you'll eat healing food while mighty and waste the potential of actively getting more out of healing. As a passive it might not reach the max potential of Wolfgang, but overall it is better.

The only reasons Wolfgang has an edge over Wigfrid is that his damage bonus is a lot larger, he gets a speed boost, and him needing extra food becomes a trivial downside later on either due to a belt of hunger or mass bee boxes.

Unfortunately her vampirism is a bit of a double edged sword when it comes to farming shadow monsters.

Wig is a lot easier to use and I prefer someone I don’t know to play Wig, like most people do.

[HamBatter]

25 minutes ago, Toros said:

The only reasons Wolfgang has an edge over Wigfrid is that his damage bonus is a lot larger, he gets a speed boost, and him needing extra food becomes a trivial downside later on either due to a belt of hunger or mass bee boxes.

Damage and speed are good reasons in an individual/small group setting.

25 minutes ago, Toros said:

Unfortunately her vampirism is a bit of a double edged sword when it comes to farming shadow monsters.

She may not be able to collect it all in one go, but having a diet of Monster Meat variants should be enough to sustain use. Also jumping between sanity and insanity seems to reduce the lulls you get for killing shadow creatures and staying insane for long periods of time.

[Toros]

17 minutes ago, HamBatter said:

Damage and speed are good reasons in an individual/small group setting.

She may not be able to collect it all in one go, but having a diet of Monster Meat variants should be enough to sustain use. Also jumping between sanity and insanity seems to reduce the lulls you get for killing shadow creatures and staying insane for long periods of time.

I think that being low on sanity alone isn’t enough, you need to be low and have your sanity currently be draining to spawn a monster.

[HamBatter]

3 minutes ago, Toros said:

I think that being low on sanity alone isn’t enough, you need to be low and have your sanity currently be draining to spawn a monster.

You can still spawn shadow creatures with 0 sanity, but I have no idea on the conditions of calm periods other than eventually getting one after defeating many shadows. It could very well be random.

[Dreamscape18459]

16 hours ago, Toros said:

The only reasons Wolfgang has an edge over Wigfrid is that his damage bonus is a lot larger, he gets a speed boost, and him needing extra food becomes a trivial downside later on either due to a belt of hunger or mass bee boxes.

Unfortunately her vampirism is a bit of a double edged sword when it comes to farming shadow monsters.

Wig is a lot easier to use and I prefer someone I don’t know to play Wig, like most people do.

Wolfgang doesn't even need bee boxes or the belt of hunger. Once players find a bunnyman village food will never be an issue again. (Maybe it could be initially if Wolf wants to be mighty 24/7 but 20 bunny huts provides an absurd amount of food every day and meaty stew is incredibly strong.)

 

Also I don't think Wigfrid's vampire ability is a big deal once a sanity station is up. (Or a Lazy Deserter as it has a large sanity drain.) I think both these characters have a slight edge in nightmare fuel farming as (I think) shadows spawn when characters sanity level changes. (Wigfrid has vampirism, Wolfgang sanity drains quicker.) I don't really understand how shadow spawning works because they still seem to spawn at 0 sanity with nightmare amulet/skeleton hat. (Although it could be using the characters hidden sanity as I believe both these items reduce sanity by 2/min.) and not the 0 that is displayed in the HUD.

 

On the topic of the Forge I find Wigfrid's spear slightly underwhelming as she seems to trigger her special attack aura more frequently with darts. Flipping the Tortanks/Snortoises/Whatever and stunning them for a bit is a nice ability though. (And I think the spear can only be usable with a Wigfrid. It doesn't drop from enemies to my knowledge.) I think its a little odd how Wigfrid has 150 hp while Woodie has 200.

Doesn't Wolfgang's mighty animation in the Forge make him immune to damage while the animation plays? I didn't play Wolfgang during the beta but it sounds strong if correct.

[Toros]

1 hour ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

Wolfgang doesn't even need bee boxes or the belt of hunger. Once players find a bunnyman village food will never be an issue again. (Maybe it could be initially if Wolf wants to be mighty 24/7 but 20 bunny huts provides an absurd amount of food every day and meaty stew is incredibly strong.)

 

Also I don't think Wigfrid's vampire ability is a big deal once a sanity station is up. (Or a Lazy Deserter as it has a large sanity drain.) I think both these characters have a slight edge in nightmare fuel farming as (I think) shadows spawn when characters sanity level changes. (Wigfrid has vampirism, Wolfgang sanity drains quicker.) I don't really understand how shadow spawning works because they still seem to spawn at 0 sanity with nightmare amulet/skeleton hat. (Although it could be using the characters hidden sanity as I believe both these items reduce sanity by 2/min.) and not the 0 that is displayed in the HUD.

 

On the topic of the Forge I find Wigfrid's spear slightly underwhelming as she seems to trigger her special attack aura more frequently with darts. Flipping the Tortanks/Snortoises/Whatever and stunning them for a bit is a nice ability though. (And I think the spear can only be usable with a Wigfrid. It doesn't drop from enemies to my knowledge.) I think its a little odd how Wigfrid has 150 hp while Woodie has 200.

Doesn't Wolfgang's mighty animation in the Forge make him immune to damage while the animation plays? I didn't play Wolfgang during the beta but it sounds strong if correct.

The animation might make him immune to damage while it plays but ten seconds later he plays his shrinking animation, and it interrupts you if you’re trying to revive someone.

Personally I don’t care much for the mighty form in forge, I think it’s awkward to use and self stunning before and after is really annoying.