Food in Outbreak a look on water

[NanoD]

Like every one notice there is a new system for food. 

And now we have quit limited amount of water, because only 2 steam geysers on a map. 

Now lets check how much all water the different foods takes per 1000 Calories.

Meal lice 0 kg of water 

Liceloaf 50 kg of water

Mush bar 75 kg of water

Mush Fry 150 kg of water

Bristle Berry 200 kg of water

Sleet Wheat 16 kg of water (per grain)

Pincha Peppernut 192,5 kg of water (Polluted water for 1 berry)

Mushroom 12,5 kg of slime 

Fried Mushroom 20 kg of slime

Gristle Berry 320 kg of water

Pickled Meal 0 kg of water  (3 meal lice)

Frost Buns 48 kg of water

Pepper Bread 272,5 kg of water (80 water and 192,5 kg polluted water)

Stuffed Berry 785 kg of water (400 water and 385 kg of polluted water)

 

[Michi01]

Someone suggested that all foods should require water and that the dupes should output as much polluted water as they've consumed clean water through food, so that no food causes water loss and players always need to deal with food poisoning germs when they produce food.

[goboking]

35 minutes ago, Michi01 said:

Someone suggested that all foods should require water and that the dupes should output as much polluted water as they've consumed clean water through food, so that no food causes water loss and players always need to deal with food poisoning germs when they produce food.

Bristle blossoms require 80 kg/cycle for four cycles to produce a single berry.  That's a LOT of polluted water for a dupe to be injecting back into the system in a single bathroom visit.

[Saturnus]

45 minutes ago, Michi01 said:

Someone suggested that all foods should require water and that the dupes should output as much polluted water as they've consumed clean water through food, so that no food causes water loss and players always need to deal with food poisoning germs when they produce food.

Wouldn't that make dupes perpetual motion machines? Dupes burn calories to do work, so if they also output as much water as the calorie intake required to make that would mean that dupe would produce essentially endless free energy.

However, what the original poster fail to take into account is that a lot of foods can very effectively be grown in the wild. Sure, it takes much longer and will require a lot more space but what else are you going to fill up the asteroid with?

[brummbar7]

10 minutes ago, gobokin said:

Bristle blossoms require 80 kg/cycle for four cycles to produce a single berry.  That's a LOT of polluted water for a dupe to be injecting back into the system in a single bathroom visit.

I think I was the original suggester of that idea, at least the one Michi is referring to, and I was only meaning for preparing food.  I was not suggesting the entire farming system should also come out in the lav.  That would clearly be too much.  I was thinking something more like 5kg per 1kcal of the food in question.    The idea was more to try and address the situation right now where musher-prepared foods - which take water - are heavily dis-incentivized in the current system, both due to limited water, and also to avoid food poisoning.  If all foods take water, and so can inherit food poisoning, then it's just about the resources involved in making them, and dupe preferences, both of which are more rewarding mechanics to drive the system with.  That should also make it a little more important to sterilize the water.  Though there's still a LOT of uninfected water just sitting in the world at generation.  It would also require that grills don't sterilize by heat, otherwise the whole idea is pointless as the germs would still be obviated in those foods and make those foods preferred.  Now if the grill took a more finite resource, like natgas, or a hefty amount of electricity, then it might be a good balance to strike.  But 60w is nothing.  Those grills should take 950w minimum imo, if they provide sterilization.

The issue of irrigation water will probably cause players to mostly leave wild plants wild and harvest them like that, until such a time as Klei changes the ratios/grow times/yields, adds more geysers, or provides more ways for the player to get water from nothing at an effective rate.  That's kind of a separate issue from the food system imbalances, to me at least. I can deal with the plant situation, wild harvesting isn't so bad.   But the food balance is just a mess and neither supports nor is supported by any other systems in any meaningful way, nor does it add much at all to the game currently.

[Saturnus]

Just to stay off topic, I really like wild planting. And I like that the game pretty much forces us to plan a lot more carefully ahead if you want a really large base. Before you could just hollow out the asteroid and add farms where you wanted. Now you have to be sort of vary about digging too much into slime biomes due to slime lung. And you have to be careful not hollowing out caustic biomes completely because they're very useful for wild planting a lot of foods. And naturally digging out ice biomes is not a good idea because you lose a lot of cooling potential doing that.  

[Michi01]

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

Dupes burn calories to do work, so if they also output as much water as the calorie intake required to make that would mean that dupe would produce essentially endless free energy.

You would need resources other than water and you need to clean the polluted water.

[Cilya]

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

Wouldn't that make dupes perpetual motion machines?

That's a good question indeed. If Klei decide to have a finite energy world and fix anything that creates energy, then the resources will vanish sooner or later.

I would have said that the dupes are consuming the energy inside the food... but this does not answer the question: where did the plant get the energy ? In real physics I don't think it comes from water or fertilizer: those are only the material. The energy generally comes from the sun. In ONI, only one plant requires light. So they must have taken the energy from somewhere else.

[brummbar7]

I don't think even the water system alone can practically be made sealed without drastic rebalancing of water availability/supply.  They'd need things like evaporation and humidity, not to mention dupes actually *would* have to excrete a lot of the water that plants take in in irrigation.  That or you'd have some really sopping wet compost.  It's patently urealistic for any plant the size of a man or smaller to take in even 20kg of water a day.  In fact I'd guess even 1kg per day for a non-swamp-dwelling plant is quite beyond reality (but I'm no horticulturalist).  So in such a system, to make it closed, you'd have patently unrealistic knock-on effects.  Hence, instead you have water vanishing into plants, and springing from nowhere out of geysers.  And I think that's fine.  The rewards of trying to more accurately close the system would probably not be worth it imho.  As long as the ONI water cycle adequately supports and is supported by the other systems, it's fine.

[Vim Razz]

4 hours ago, Saturnus said:

And you have to be careful not hollowing out caustic biomes completely because they're very useful for wild planting a lot of foods.

I thought wild planting no longer worked in Outbreak.  Have you had success in getting it to work this update?

[Reaniel]

23 minutes ago, Vim Razz said:

I thought wild planting no longer worked in Outbreak.  Have you had success in getting it to work this update?

You can't add new wilds, but existing ones can still be kept around.

[The Plum Gate]

21 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

It's patently urealistic for any plant the size of a man or smaller to take in even 20kg of water a day. 

Agreed.

Edit: misquote...

I think any plant taking in clean water and requiring light should also produce O2, consume c02 (incidental - as is with the algae terrarium) - this may be a genuinely good tradeoff in a water-loss scenario for bristle blossom.

Sleet wheat could do with some similar tweaking - perhaps emit co2, but have a cooling effect similar to but not as substantial as the wheezewort  ( negating the need for active cooling when domesticating), again a good externality and offset of the extreme water requirements.

PInchapeppers could emit hydrogen, a natural emitter when domesticating, just keep it hot with useful byproducts for energy generation

mushrooms could convert co2 to - germ free po2, would require some maintenance, but could be fertilized with straight slimelung slime and provide an alternative route to detoxifying slime.

[Darkarma]

Reducing the water requirements of crops and trying to make it more circular would be nice. In generall this thread has a lot of good brain storming potential.

[Ciderblock]

On 9/5/2017 at 0:15 PM, Saturnus said:

Wouldn't that make dupes perpetual motion machines? Dupes burn calories to do work, so if they also output as much water as the calorie intake required to make that would mean that dupe would produce essentially endless free energy.

Dupes are already perpetual motion machines. If you put a dupe on a manual generator placed near your electrolyzer, and feed the hydrogen to a hydrogen generator, ensuring that all hydrogen packets in your pump are 500g, then that dupe generates a net of about 465W whenever they aren't eating, going to the bathroom, or sleeping. (+400W for the manual generator, +~91W for the hydrogen generator, -~14W for the electrolyzer, -~3W for the liquid pump, -~6W for the gas pump, then I round everything down.) This is without any external input like a star or whatever.

I doubt this will change unless an external input is introduced, because basically dupe power, hatch power, and NG geyser power are the sources of energy in the world.

[SusanMcO]

Technically any closed system like this will be water neutral. It should be possible to eventually reclaim all water (because that happens IRL)  We drink water: sweat and pee it out. We put it on plants, it either goes into aquifers or evaporates into the atmosphere where it eventually becomes rain, or we eat it and once again we excrete it. It's hard to get rid of water entirely.

I admit I am frustrated with the water mechanic a little.

[Darkarma]

1 hour ago, SusanMcO said:

Technically any closed system like this will be water neutral. It should be possible to eventually reclaim all water (because that happens IRL)  We drink water: sweat and pee it out. We put it on plants, it either goes into aquifers or evaporates into the atmosphere where it eventually becomes rain, or we eat it and once again we excrete it. It's hard to get rid of water entirely.

I admit I am frustrated with the water mechanic a little.

Agreed, however a completely closed system might be impossible programmatically due rounding issues but if we could get as close as possible, that'd be a step upward. I rather not be reliant on geysers which has the issue of not always being conveniently positioned.

[Ciderblock]

13 minutes ago, Darkarma said:

Agreed a completely closed system might be impossible programmatically due rounding issues but if we could get as close as possible, that'd be a step upward. I rather not be reliant on geysers which has the issue of not always being conveniently positioned.

I disagree. A closed system is not interesting to run, because it runs itself. An open system where the external source provides enough flow and does not run out is also not interesting to run, because again it runs itself. The interesting thing is a system that either requires work to run, or occasionally requires modification to run adequately for your ever-increasing desires (or both).

For comparison, look at Factorio. In vanilla Factorio, every resource except water and crude oil is limited by patches, and even water and crude oil are limited in their flow rate. By default the map is infinite so there is an infinite amount of material on the map, but you have to build the outposts to extract it. (Technically the map is computer-limited rather than game-limited, but the game is optimized such that you can have a very large functional map.) Factorio has various infinite resource mods, but they are not especially well-received, because one of the good things about Factorio's game loop is running off to get more iron, copper, oil, etc.

[Cilya]

7 minutes ago, Ciderblock said:

Factorio has various infinite resource mods, but they are not especially well-received, because one of the good things about Factorio's game loop is running off to get more iron, copper, oil, etc.

I agree with that. But Factorio doesn't simulate liquid and gas flow through the whole map. What bother me with Oxygen Not Included is that every resource lost is lost forever and there are no way to go to another asteroid to get another resources.

[Ciderblock]

4 minutes ago, Cilya said:

I agree with that. But Factorio doesn't simulate liquid and gas flow through the whole map. What bother me with Oxygen Not Included is that every resource lost is lost forever and there are no way to go to another asteroid to get another resources.

Is this just a general objection or an actual objection to the flow of the game? Because it seems to me that the actual finite resources (so not water, NG, or coal) are so abundant that you couldn't possibly use them all, except sand (and even then you'd have a LONG time to wait before you run out of sand).

[Cilya]

This is not an objection about the game, I think it works the way it is. It's just I'm not convinced that an open system is a good goal for Oxygen Not Included. There can be non-renewable resources, which are a good way to create the need for adaptation and to explore further until there is no way around the renewable but less efficient resources. We agree on that. But I think farming might be one of those inefficient but renewable way of getting resources, thus I would see farming as taking part of a closed system.

[Darkarma]

 

1 hour ago, Ciderblock said:

I disagree. A closed system is not interesting to run, because it runs itself. An open system where the external source provides enough flow and does not run out is also not interesting to run, because again it runs itself. The interesting thing is a system that either requires work to run, or occasionally requires modification to run adequately for your ever-increasing desires (or both).

For comparison, look at Factorio. In vanilla Factorio, every resource except water and crude oil is limited by patches, and even water and crude oil are limited in their flow rate. By default the map is infinite so there is an infinite amount of material on the map, but you have to build the outposts to extract it. (Technically the map is computer-limited rather than game-limited, but the game is optimized such that you can have a very large functional map.) Factorio has various infinite resource mods, but they are not especially well-received, because one of the good things about Factorio's game loop is running off to get more iron, copper, oil, etc.

I don't mind that its not completely a closed system. This is space, things can get in, there are voids that things can get out. But I'd like it be a little bit less nonsensical with what happens to conservation of matter since we are doing that mostly with heat. Some sort of compromise would be nice at least with water and farming.

Wheezes though I have a bit of a head canon that they are actually energy storage plants that push heat to their very center at a focal point where heat eventually hits the absolute ceiling of heat and WEIRD things start happening. Like gaining mass. So Wheezes, aren't actually cold but really really reeeeeeally hot!

[Michi01]

A truly closed system wouldn't work, because the asteroid would eventually experience heat death (not in the sense of overheating like a lot of players seem to use the term, but through thermodynamic equilibrium).

[Cilya]

Not if the second law of thermodynamics is not implemented. The entropy could stay constant in ONI ! But I wouldn't radiating heat out of the asteroid and getting sun light at the surface.

I have no idea how to get a consistent system with heat transfer where the second law is not true though.

[Darkarma]

3 minutes ago, Cilya said:

Not if the second law of thermodynamics is not implemented. The entropy could stay constant in ONI ! But I wouldn't radiating heat out of the asteroid and getting sun light at the surface.

 

7 minutes ago, Michi01 said:

A truly closed system wouldn't work, because the asteroid would eventually experience heat death (not in the sense of overheating like a lot of players seem to use the term, but through thermodynamic equilibrium).

The asteroid has a shell of degenerate matter, neutronium. I doubt any heat is going to be escaping or entering  through that. I suspect voids are probably micro black holes. How dupes survive the gravity has to be some sort of handwavium.

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, Darkarma said:

 

How dupes survive the gravity has to be some sort of handwavium.

The gravity? What do you mean?