A World Where Inedible food is Inedible

[MondayNight]

Most likely all that "go for spiders" boils down to the possibility of relocation: spider eggs. You can place them in your base or whatever.

Not so with catcoons, frogs, rabbits, etc. I for one won't run up-and-down map all time when I have better things to do AND said possibility of relocating my food source exactly where I want it to be exists - spider eggs.

There's a reason agricultural societies are regarded as being higher on evolution's scale in relation to hunter/gatherer ones. As all surviving games build towards gaining a strong foothold in the world and ultimately bend its hardships to your will - and thriving. What you are writing about may be valid for advanced/veteran players that mega-base, solo speedrun bosses, over-specialize optimization-wise and whatnot - game becomes easy; and is natural. Go on random/dedicated pubs where newbies and casuals flip-flop non-stop and see the madness: about 1/2 of them can't even survive first autumn, dying mostly from night monster aaaand starvation (with all the spider goodies supposedly easy for the picking). When you want to modify some core mechanics and whatnot you must take majority into account and what do they usually do in the game, how much time spent and so on. From my experience (over 1.5k hours just in pure public/dedicated survival servers, not accounting my solo/friends-only servers) cca. 80% don't go past first autumn, don't do bosses at all, die most of the times and, indeed, go for rabbits, birds, farms as primary food source... and fail at it. Some consider spiders... and a lot of these die by same-considered spiders. I don't know how the game was supposed to be at beginning (I haven't played early alpha), if monster meat was meant just as marginal alternative, a risky one or not, with bigger cons. But if one could relocate those other mobs as easily as one can do with spider eggs, maybe regular meat would be more of a thing for advanced/veteran players (although, for convenience sake, again, from spiders you get 3 resources, 4 if counting queen, all same source).

 

One more thing: if in late-game stages you (a general "you", not a specific player) are still dependent on hunting... you are doing something wrong; very wrong.

[KilliasK]

On 8/1/2017 at 6:59 PM, The Curator said:

Catcoons, frogs, birds, rabbits, turkeys, beefalo, tallbirds, koalephants, fish and more are most of the time not even hunted for the meat they drop

Speak for yourself. I hunt turkeys, tallbirds, beefalo, and other meaty creatures all the time for jerky.

[PillsStealer]

Jokes on you, people eat fried spiders. Therefore monster meat is good.

Just the thought of eating fried spider gives me chills...

 

[JohnWatson]

Killing one beefalo takes ~15 seconds and it rewards you with 10.67 minutes worth of food if eaten raw, cooked, or dried. If you use the meaty stew recipe (with monster meat and small meats), it could be 64 minutes (8 in-game days) worth of food at most.

Stop trying to make it look like regular non-monster meat is useless and not worth acquiring.

[Lumina]

7 hours ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

When you want to modify some core mechanics and whatnot you must take majority into account and what do they usually do in the game, how much time spent and so on. From my experience (over 1.5k hours just in pure public/dedicated survival servers, not accounting my solo/friends-only servers) cca. 80% don't go past first autumn, don't do bosses at all, die most of the times and, indeed, go for rabbits, birds, farms as primary food source... and fail at it. Some consider spiders... and a lot of these die by same-considered spiders. I don't know how the game was supposed to be at beginning (I haven't played early alpha), if monster meat was meant just as marginal alternative, a risky one or not, with bigger cons.

Yes, you must take the majority in account, i get it.

But if the majority fails to reach winter, how removing the "3 ice as a filler" will impact the said majority in a bad way ? They aren't even in winter, and honestly, using that much ice as a filler isn't logic or intuitive. It's something from experienced player, not beginner. As a beginner, when you spent time to acquire your food, you don't waste it in stranges recipes that could fail, like using 3 twigs and a dragon fruit or 3 ice and a meat.

So how does the change will affect theses players ?

[Palecwsmalec1]

Personally, i still hunt a lot of things for normal meat and resources (i regularly kill beefalo for beef hats, hunt koealefants whenever i feel like it and fish up fish for that sweet 40 HP boost from fishsticks), but i gotta admit the monster meat + ice recipe could be nerfed.

I agree with Lumina here - a good middle ground would be keeping the recipe, but limiting it to only 1-2 ice so that players will use other types of filler to make food. Most of the time i've defaulted to just using ice and all the berries the team has picked from the farms usually go unused (well unless i need some HP, then i make Trail Mixes). As for the bird thing? Doesn't really make much sense to me ATM. I think it could be resolved by making birds eat only 2 or 1 monster meat per day and then refuse to eat any more because of the poison. Or it could work by taking away the bird's HP bit by bit so you have to gauge the amount of monster meat you give it so as to not kill it.

To sum it up, i'm neutral on this topic. Regular meat and other mobs aren't as useless as Curator puts it, but the meatballs recipe does need a slight nerf, as do the birbs.

 

[MondayNight]

3 hours ago, Lumina said:

Yes, you must take the majority in account, i get it.

But if the majority fails to reach winter, how removing the "3 ice as a filler" will impact the said majority in a bad way ? They aren't even in winter, and honestly, using that much ice as a filler isn't logic or intuitive. It's something from experienced player, not beginner. As a beginner, when you spent time to acquire your food, you don't waste it in stranges recipes that could fail, like using 3 twigs and a dragon fruit or 3 ice and a meat.

So how does the change will affect theses players ?

A. There is the kinda easy, already implemented method, there for making meatballs. Also glaciers appear in Rockyland before actual winter (and I for one tell in chat, as a funny and useful fact, the recipe to people I see asking stuff or just having it hard regarding food and being vocal about it). Plus doesn't contradict the concept of a meatball: minced meat rolled into a ball and boiled; nothing about spices but, hey, details!

Plus if we talk the logicality of recipes, almost all of them should require water/ice at least in 1 slot.

 

B. If, as we both pointed, most don't even use this... why bother changing?

Don't like the Meatball recipe? Don't use it. Simple, yes? Don't like the concept of Dragonpie as well? Go for whatever you fancy. That's your personal choice. Why want something modify for a minority and a personal/subjective choice?! Is it a bug? Nope. You feel as it makes the game easier? Go for harder settings, disable glaciers and Pengulls, join servers to your liking or host such worlds etc.

Funnier fact: I see majority of you declared solo players (there was such a topic and, if I remember well, you - and some other posting here - said most of time play alone) complaining about this-and-that the most; thus why try imposing things (that aren't bugs) on community if you can already customize your worlds the way you want and play alone? Isn't it... weird as purpose goes?!

[JohnWatson]

I think the Magic Tab should be nerfed/removed because it's not realistic I can't do magic irl

[Lumina]

1 hour ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

 

B. If, as we both pointed, most don't even use this... why bother changing?

Don't like the Meatball recipe? Don't use it. Simple, yes? Don't like the concept of Dragonpie as well? Go for whatever you fancy. That's your personal choice. Why want something modify for a minority and a personal/subjective choice?! Is it a bug? Nope. You feel as it makes the game easier? Go for harder settings, disable glaciers and Pengulls, join servers to your liking or host such worlds etc.

Funnier fact: I see majority of you declared solo players (there was such a topic and, if I remember well, you - and some other posting here - said most of time play alone) complaining about this-and-that the most; thus why try imposing things (that aren't bugs) on community if you can already customize your worlds the way you want and play alone? Isn't it... weird as purpose goes?!

Yeah, why bother wanting to make the game fun ? What a strange idea.

People with point of view that you don't like don't have to shut up. It's ok to make suggestions even if you don't like it. It's the right of users and i'm really, really tired of people saying the nonsense of "don't like it don't use it".

This is the most egoist sentence, bringing nothing good in a discussion. Don't like it, don't use it. Don't like my ideas ? Don't say anything agaisnt it. Seems great to you ? No ? Yeah, me neither.

 

I try to be constructive. I like the game, i spend a lot of time on forum trying to help people when i can, i suggest things time to time to makes the game more enjoyable, and yes, i think that avoiding some abuses makes the game more enjoyable.

Give me arguments, as much as you want. Tell me it's not fair for whatever reasons you want. I will maybe not agree but it's ok, it's the game, it's how discussions works.

But don't tell me to shut up, if you don't listen something don't use it and stop asking for a change, or make a change for your personal game, don't impose thing to community.

 

Because maybe you try not to impose me something right now ?
 

I find it depressing. Always the same nonsense of "don't like it don't use it".

 

No. I suggest things, you have arguments agaisnt it, i have arguments for it, devs could decide to make a change, change nothing, add things that will "solve" the problem in a different way which neither you or me trought of. It's all the point of debating in forum. And if they never change anything, then it's fine, it's their decision, and maybe i'll make a mod about this so people liking the idea will still have a way to play with theses rules.

 

But, and i hope it will answer your question, if i'm suggesting it, and want the game itself to change, it's because i think the game will be better with this change. I think player could take deeper pleasure if they survive winter without relying on ice+ice+ice+meat, even and because it means that the difficulty is a little higher, because part of the pleasure we got for games is to surpass a difficulty.

And i feel like it's a honest difficulty to ask for, not something tedious, not something too high, but a normal part of the game, and so the frustration balance should be reasonable. Frustration that you can overcome is usually a good way to feel rewarded and enjoy the game. So adding a little frustration, in a very reasonable amount, could lead people to enjoy even more the game, even if it implies some failures the time to understand how to overcome this frustration (here, finding a way to have one other filler than ice, so you could do ice + ice + random filler + meat.).

 

Now i hope it's more clear. I'll return to the main subject later, but i hope i will see less often this "don't use it" sentence. Because seriously, when you do efforts, sincere efforts, to improve the game, this is hearthbreaking. Disagree with me, but let me speak.

[Rellimarual]

I can't see any good reason to make the game harder by making monster meat inedible, other than the fact that a handful of people with many hours in the game now find the early stages boring. A good friend is currently starting with the SP version and it's interesting to be reminded just how difficult it is before you learn all the ins and outs, like making a bird cage. Making the early game harder would unbalance it for newcomers, who matter too, and would turn monster meat into annoying clutter like stingers. Figuring out how to make MM edible was one of my first big accomplishments in the game and it felt great to finally get a handle on it. 

As for meatballs made from ice, whatever. I almost never make that. Isn't the whole strategy for advanced players to move to an all- jerky diet? I still hunt koalas and beefs, although pig and bunny farming is where the real action is. I've literally never played a long-term game where spiders were the main food source.

[MondayNight]

@Lumina You eluded the point: do you mostly play solo? How much time do you spend on public dedicated-or-not servers (too see how majority of players fare)?

Sure is ok to make a point - even more so if grounded in facts (not feelings); but then how much that point is backed up by a global understanding on how most player base relates to said subject? Is it too subjective or grounded on how you saw the vast mass of players play the game? And what is the level of that vast majority and how does it fare with current game difficulty? (spoiler: not so well)

And if one recipe - Meatballs from 1 meat ("monster" one?) + 3 ice - bothers you that much... why not cover the root of matter, globally: WATER should be a must-have base in MOST recipes (it's logical in proposed scheme, is it not?! As how can you make a meaty stew without ice/water for example?)

[Rellimarual]

13 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

WATER should be a must-have base in MOST recipes (it's logical in proposed scheme, is it not?! As how can you make a meaty stew without ice/water for example

Not necessarily! Certain meats release enough juices and fats when you cook them with vegetables irl, but most of the time ,yes.

[Lumina]

16 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

You eluded the point: do you mostly play solo? How much time do you spend on public dedicated-or-not servers (too see how majority of players fare)?

I mostly play solo, yes. This is mainly because i'm working on a mod i try to test and i'm working slooooowly on it and so i'm playing mostly alone. But i play time to time on Klei public server. So, what is your point ? Trying to find something else to deny me the right to speak ?

 

18 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

And if one recipe - Meatballs from 1 meat ("monster" one?) + 3 ice - bothers you that much... why not cover the root of matter, globally: WATER should be a must-have base in MOST recipes (it's logical in proposed scheme, is it not?! As how can you make a meaty stew without ice/water for example?)

How could it be related ? I'm not speaking about logic, here. Or let me explain why i can't :

- make a dish with less than 4 ingredients

- not being able to eat a part of a dish and eat the other part later

- how i'm able to make pierogi or pie or similar dishes without any kind of flour

- why i'm able to make sushi with lichen and not rice

- why character don't need to drink (yeah, fruits have a lot of water in usually, but not enough)

- why is there chantilly cream in waffle ? Where does it come from ?

- where are the dishes when you don't use it ? you have ton of plates and cup you use for you food, then store in the void between two meals ?

 

Guess what ? I don't care about all of this. I'm not requiring that you'll need to grow wheat and transform it into flour, then make a dough, and when the dough is done, you make the filling, then you cook it. It's a game. I don't care about things working with shorcut and all if it serves the gameplay.

And i'm speaking about gameplay, here. Not strange kind of logic that have no place.

 

I'm not agaisnt the "3 ice as a filler" because "you can't cook with ice", i'm against it because i feel that it is not the best thing to encourage, gameplay wise, and that it could be more fun to limit things so players feel more rewarded to overcome difficulty. And i choose this because here the difficulty is possible to overcome (lot of people survive winter without using the 3 ice as a filler thing), and because it's a good way to encourage people to learn about a various aspects of the game (they have plenty of choice : farms, berries bushs, mushrooms, ... to find another filler to replace one ice).

32 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

And what is the level of that vast majority and how does it fare with current game difficulty? (spoiler: not so well)

Oh, seriously, not that again.

 

This topic is full of "nearly nobody does that anyway", "i never did that" "most players don't even reach first winter", so i have hard time to see how changing a little the recipe will cause that much troubles.

It's precisely BECAUSE it's a small change that i think it's a possible change, because it will not change things a lot and it will not make the game a lot more difficult.

 

Yes, the game can be difficult for newscomers. But i'm not sure that never making any change that could make one small part of the game more difficult will change anything for them anyway. The important part is that the basics aren't made more difficult. If i wanted something like a thirst system, with need for water, need to build structure for water, loss of water when it's dry (and it could be dry in winter), yeah, i could understand the "but some people don't even reach winter".

 

Do you have fact to support your theory that the game will be less fun for people if the change is made ?

 

55 minutes ago, Rellimarual said:

 

I can't see any good reason to make the game harder by making monster meat inedible, other than the fact that a handful of people with many hours in the game now find the early stages boring.

 

I don't see neither why monster meat should be inedible. And (for me), i don't feel the early stage boring. In fact they are fun because you can discover a brand new world and set pieces and stuff like this (even if there are repetition, sure. But still, at least you can discover something new).

I think that transforming monster meat with birdcage could be a little less easy, i'm in favour of either the bird giving a monster bird (so you have to avoid monster meat + monster egg for some recipes), or losing some healths, so you have a cost for the transformation (because it's the point of monster meat, "easy" to access meat but with cost/risk).

At the moment the birdcage remove the risk. You could make that the birdcage reduce the cost and it will still be a very good and convenient structure (especially because it allows news dishes)

[fimmatek]

I didn't even know the 3 ice + monster meat receipe for a very long time, I simply never thought of it. When I learned this reciepe, I didn't need it any more. I used it sometimes, 'cause why not? but I don't rely on it. Except maybe on some public servers where I cannot assure that I find the fridge full again...

[MondayNight]

On 8/3/2017 at 7:43 PM, Lumina said:

.. i'm against it because i feel that it is not the best thing to encourage, gameplay wise, and that it could be more fun to limit things so players feel more rewarded to overcome difficulty.

..in an already pretty difficult game.

If we're going "feeling subjectively", I for one won't find that rewording but just annoying in a minor way. And would remove any incentive on mining glaciers (I base in caves, no need for flingos) - yet again weren't here some topics about "useless things"?! This would make glaciers pretty useless, not very stringently, yet "meh". I can just mass mushroom planters and transplanted berry bushes IN base (well I for one already do so), and do combine them "in the heap" with ice and meat at times; still if another "wet goop" could appear if 4th ingredient MUST be something beside another 3rd ice... yeah, pretty annoying. Attention, attention, attention.

 

Wanted to reply to the rest of your raised points but.. is it a point really? You have your opinion, you even admitted is a small change that you would want devs to consider (aka time and work invested in a minor thing probably used - "1 meat + 3 ice" - by 10% of players, bothering at the moment maybe under 0.0x% of another players - you included)..or not, I have my views, we don't have the exact raw data even if I play most of my games in pubs (and you alone) so, rhetorically: let's wait and see and if happens, kudos to you (and also see the probably hate-pouring in like with the caged bird nerf that was reversed). "All good on the east front", out.

[TheKingDedede]

@JohnWatson, you yourself made this mod. Why not advertise it?

 

@The Curator, give this a look.

[Lumina]

1 hour ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

..in an already pretty difficult game.

Not difficult, hard to learn. Not the same thing, even if for player it's not funnier to have something killing you because the game is difficult or because you don't have the knowledge needed.

1 hour ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

And would remove any incentive on mining glaciers (I base in caves, no need for flingos) - yet again weren't here some topics about "useless things"?! This would make glaciers pretty useless, not very stringently, yet "meh".

No, you will still be able to use 2 ice as a filler. So same use for ice, just used in more dishes. No loss of utility here. Also, i heard that it's possible to give more use to an item but it's probably a rumor.

1 hour ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

(I base in caves, no need for flingos)

It's not only the flingo, you don't need to protect for heat as strongly as in the surface.

1 hour ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

(aka time and work invested in a minor thing probably used - "1 meat + 3 ice" - by 10% of players, bothering at the moment maybe under 0.0x% of another players - you included)

1 hour ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

And would remove any incentive on mining glaciers (I base in caves, no need for flingos) - yet again weren't here some topics about "useless things"?! This would make glaciers pretty useless, not very stringently, yet "meh".

I'm curious how something minor used by 10% of player (probably less in fact) could make something useless. More than oasis and caves are making ice useless ?

1 hour ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

you even admitted is a small change that you would want devs to consider

Yes. I can even admit it again. It's what we call "polishing", no ? Small changes that make the game better. Yes, it could take time for small things, it's why it's usually not the first thing you do, because of course there are more important things.

But they are working on the game. They are perfectly able to decide themselves what is a priority. And what is something to do after all is done. And all the stuff like this. And i'm aware of that, i already explained that. So yes, we can wait and see what will happen.

 

But if you add more things to the debate, you could expect that i do the same. Especially if the things added are contradictory. Like "Nearly no one use this, but it will kill new players and make ice useless, also it's a very minor change."

[minespatch]

13 hours ago, Lumina said:

Not difficult, hard to learn. Not the same thing, even if for player it's not funnier to have something killing you because the game is difficult or because you don't have the knowledge needed.

I'm a slow learner.