Polishing Maxwell's New Design

[rezecib]

So I like Maxwell's new design, and it's perhaps a bit too strong compared to most other characters, but I think there are a few remaining issues that mainly just make it annoying to play as him, which could be fixed pretty easily.

1. Worker minions get 1-shot by a lot of random stuff. The most annoying one I've encountered is falling rocks in earthquakes. There really doesn't seem to be much point to this. Most of the time I don't even know what killed them, because I've just been running around and suddenly they're gone. I think all the minions should have the same health, given that even the duelist is pretty squishy.
2. The worker minions can be really annoying when you don't want to work on stuff, but if you haven't found the time to get a huge stack of nightmare fuel, then you also really don't want to kill them. Having the logger chop baby / dead trees and barely-formed glaciers becomes really annoying. The ability to right-click them to toggle whether they are active or not would be really nice. Another thing that could help is having them not acquire work targets unless the player is close to the target (very close), but still allow them to continue working on them when the player moves a bit away.
3. It would make playing him feel so much better if you could switch minion types without having to kill and resummon them. I gave an example implementation of this in the imbuing thread, and it was really quite easy to do. If this is something the devs definitely don't want to do, then I'd like to hear that too, so I can just go ahead and make it a mod (but I don't want to make it a mod if that's going to prevent the devs from doing it...).
4. Having several workers makes your sanity low, but not low enough for it to really matter for anything. Hanging around in this state sucks though, primarily because of the sanity noise. It feels bad to have the main reason to not do something be "because it sounds incredibly annoying". A system like imbuing would help with this by making it more feasible to have just a couple of minions whose type you switch. To fix it with the current system would probably require retuning the sanity thresholds for sound effects for Maxwell, which seems a bit extreme and probably annoying to implement. Or maybe the game could check if the low sanity was produced by a sanity cap or not, and only scale the sound within the current and capped-max sanity.
5. Loggers run away from poison birchnuts, which can't be attacked, only chopped. If they didn't run away they'd be very helpful there.

He also seems a little bit too strong, and obviously removing these annoyances would make him stronger. So what can we do do nerf him without making playing him more annoying? Some ideas:

1. Increase the cost of making workers. This would be especially relevant if you could change their type, as you'd be summoning less often and it'd be more important to hang onto them. Making them cost 6 nightmare fuel seems reasonable to me, but you could even bring back a health cost or something (this would probably make the most sense if we went back to summoning minions by reading the book, rather than crafting, which an imbuing system would greatly facilitate, as there would no longer need to be ways to make different types of minions, aside from imbuing)
2. Actually I guess that's my only good idea. Suggestions?

[GuyNamedChris]

Quote

There should be an update that allows the Codex to control what the puppets do from your inventory. Sort of like a check mark book.

Logger

>Chop All Trees

>Chop Certain Trees (Large, Medium, Small, Evergreen, Lumpy, Birchnut, Twiggy, etc.)

>Chop No Trees

Miner

>Mine All Rocks

>Mine Certain Rocks (Gold Boulders, Normal Boulders/Petrified Trees, Marble, etc.)

>Mine No Rocks

Digger

>Dig Everything 

>Dig Certain Things (Saplings/Grass/Bushes, Stumps, Graves, etc.)

>Dig Nothing

Fighter

>Aggressive (Attacks everything including non-hostile mobs)

>Neutral (Won't attack unless told or Maxwell gets attacked)

>Passive (Won't hurt a butterfly

I suggested this in an update thread. Maybe you can have the Codex act as a (clipboard?) to check off what you want each of your minions to do. "I don't want you dying to a ghost, digger. Only dig stumps for now." Or something like that.

[rezecib]

8 minutes ago, Chris1488 said:

I suggested this in an update thread. Maybe you can have the Codex act as a (clipboard?) to check off what you want each of your minions to do. "I don't want you dying to a ghost, digger. Only dig stumps for now." Or something like that.

I think the problem with having three states like that is that it really makes the interface pretty clunky. A simple on/off is more straightforward.

Although... another thing could be to make it so that they don't acquire targets unless you get pretty close to them. That way you can more carefully designate them. I'd still want them to be able to work at the distance they can now, but if they didn't go off and find things to chop unless you were near them, that could work.

[The Letter W]

with the sound issue on his sanity, would it be possible to have the game check to see if the low sanity is from a cap or not? so then it only plays the sound if you've lowered your sanity from i don't know, repeatedly jumping in and out of wormholes or wearing an amulet, but not from having it capped from the minions. 

[DwerBomb]

I completely agree with points 1,2 and agree and strongly suggest the rework you've suggested in point 3

With point 4 I don't mind, as sanity noise isn't that big of a deal for me, maybe because I'm used with being insane (SW)

I also agree that, in case this changes get applied, the puppets should require more nightmare fuel (not 6, 3 should be enough), plus, instead of the tool, they should also require health (15) as in vanilla Maxwell. Possibly, they could have a small insanity aura around them, the reason for this being that having more will get more dangerous, as they will drain your already low sanity.

Chris's suggestion is nice too, but I think that might be a bit harder to put in game without looking too out of the ordinary.

[or1239]

Here's what i had to say on "Maxwell spear puppets.Good or ok?" thread, i believe this can be addressed to the rest of the minions as well so il just put it here .

On 5/26/2016 at 3:45 PM, or1239 said:

We can improve on them however...

If we got to control them better and kite/coordinate an attack they would become much more viable in combat, such as command them to go attack alone or when to stop attacking all while controlling their movement with the mouse when you want to manually kite, they can keep the default pigman Ai when not controlled and of course keep their low hp.

I mean individual puppet types only do one thing and excel at it, they are already better then the original "all in one puppet " we got in single player so spear puppets really seem like the exception to the rest of the puppets thanks to their Ai and aggro.

And yea i pretty much agree with everything you suggested.

Except i much rather have summoning em cost a bit of HP if that means we can keep their cost a bit low, I get that nightmare fuel can be really easy to get later on in the game but i also want him to be able to summon a few puppets easily on the early game.

[StarvedKasad]

For the love of them,just make nightmare fuel from dark petals open by default.That way I don't have to wait until day 12 until I make my evil flower farm,which requires a prestihatitator.A prestihatitator? And how on earth did he make nightmare fuel in the first place?

My suggestions:

-Puppets aren't instagibed from earthquakes anymore

-Nightmare fuel from petals is known by default for Maxwell

-Puppets can wear armor

If the above are fixed mirco management might not be a problem really,but if you still want them to be micro manageable you might wanna look at a mod called "followers all in one" We might not have starcraft capabilities (or do we? ) but at least you can copy their code and use it on maxwell's puppets?

[DarkXero]

One bad thing about imbuing is that a new player can't figure out what to give in order to imbue shadows. Unless the shadow book tag is kept, so Maxwell can click and see what item generates what, with recipes that do nothing. Then it's all good. Drop book to show recipes, look that digger requires shovel, pickup book, read book, give shovel to shadow.

One great thing about imbuing is that it gives you more control over your shadows, at the cost of ingredients. And it's pretty straightforward: give pickaxe, mine what you have to, if shadow goes nuts or you want to stop then right click. No micromanaging combo of keys and hotkeys.

Shadows should all have 75 health, there's no follower that dies of a single hit. Should also cost more fuel. 6 is fine by me, since they practically extend the durability of tools to the infinite. If they were to cost 3, I would expect a health tax of 25. So you better prepare yourself before summoning.

Regarding sanity, I have a mod that kills the whoosh sanity noises before I get a migraine. But what about doing this:

1) Maxwell can have 2 shapeshifter shadows max.

2) Each shadow takes away 50 sanity (leaving Maxwell at 100 sanity with 2 shadows, enough to not have headache sanity noise).

3) Every shadow Maxwell has, reduces his dapperness by half. So Maxwell has 0 dapperness with two shadows invoked.

The other thing is what to do with the paper fighters. What about making duelists, ranged duelists? They would attack monsters like how McTusk attacks you. But here's the kicker.

Ranged duelists only attack monsters with "shadow charges". You apply a shadow charge when you hit a monster. A duelist consumes a charge from that monster on hit. So they basically support you, as long as you can get some hits in. One attack for them if you get one attack yourself.

This way they don't die easily, and you have to get involved in battle. You could even use a boomerang.

[Tulingu]

Increasing the cost of minions will make Maxwell pretty much useless in every game until enough nightmare fuel has been gathered.

[rezecib]

2 minutes ago, Miss said:

 

Increasing the cost of minions will make Maxwell pretty much useless in every game until enough nightmare fuel has been gathered.

 

The increased cost was specifically in the context of making the minions much more useful, such as by allowing them to change type. One each of three types is often what a Maxwell will do at the start, anyway.

[AnonymousKoala]

8 hours ago, or1239 said:

Here's what i had to say on "Maxwell spear puppets.Good or ok?" thread, i believe this can be addressed to the rest of the minions as well so il just put it here .

And yea i pretty much agree with everything you suggested.

Except i much rather have summoning em cost a bit of HP if that means we can keep their cost a bit low, I get that nightmare fuel can be really easy to get later on in the game but i also want him to be able to summon a few puppets easily on the early game.

If they moved with you it could also be pretty good while kiting, as you essentially have 3 "people" damaging and dodging something at once.

7 hours ago, StarvedKasad said:

For the love of them,just make nightmare fuel from dark petals open by default.That way I don't have to wait until day 12 until I make my evil flower farm,which requires a prestihatitator.A prestihatitator? And how on earth did he make nightmare fuel in the first place?

My suggestions:

-Puppets aren't instagibed from earthquakes anymore

-Nightmare fuel from petals is known by default for Maxwell

-Puppets can wear armor

If the above are fixed mirco management might not be a problem really,but if you still want them to be micro manageable you might wanna look at a mod called "followers all in one" We might not have starcraft capabilities (or do we? ) but at least you can copy their code and use it on maxwell's puppets?

They're squishy, but wearing armor...No other follower does that. Not sure if it'll be fitting

[WildWesternWilson]

46 minutes ago, AnonymousKoala said:

If they moved with you it could also be pretty good while kiting, as you essentially have 3 "people" damaging and dodging something at once.

They're squishy, but wearing armor...No other follower does that. Not sure if it'll be fitting

Well, I dunno about that. Rock Lobsters basically wear their own armour and, more to the point, Pigs cluelessly wear their brother's skin and use Football Helmets you provide them with. 

[rezecib]

Maybe if you could give them armor, but not give quite the same benefits of normal armor? Like giving them armor would just double their health or something.

Also... giving armor fits really well with imbuing... just sayin'

Imbuing not being that readable to someone who hasn't done it before, though, does need a little solution. Perhaps the description for the crafted minion could be "A minion that will do your bidding, if you give it equipment.", and Maxwell could inspect them and say "It still needs a tool from me."

[StarvedKasad]

Maybe feed the puppets more nightmare fuel would make them more tankish and/or more agile.But then just add more nightmare fuel cost in the initial calling would also make sense.Dunno really.

5 hours ago, AnonymousKoala said:

If they moved with you it could also be pretty good while kiting, as you essentially have 3 "people" damaging and dodging something at once.

They're squishy, but wearing armor...No other follower does that. Not sure if it'll be fitting

I also have the idea that they permanently replicate whatever armor you're wearing.It's kind of theme-wise ,but it may be overpowered (minions having over 1000 hp with night armour ).

[thesamon]

Personally, I don't think "your" armor would affect them in anyway, since they are shadows/fragments of Maxwell's mind after all.

So other than just lowering your max sanity, I think every time your shadow/shadows get hit, it lowers your sanity by a certain amount until depleted at which the shadows disperse. (or something like that)

[hyiltiz]

17 hours ago, rezecib said:

So I like Maxwell's new design, and it's perhaps a bit too strong compared to most other characters, but I think there are a few remaining issues that mainly just make it annoying to play as him, which could be fixed pretty easily.

1. Worker minions get 1-shot by a lot of random stuff. The most annoying one I've encountered is falling rocks in earthquakes. There really doesn't seem to be much point to this. Most of the time I don't even know what killed them, because I've just been running around and suddenly they're gone. I think all the minions should have the same health, given that even the duelist is pretty squishy.
2. The worker minions can be really annoying when you don't want to work on stuff, but if you haven't found the time to get a huge stack of nightmare fuel, then you also really don't want to kill them. Having the logger chop baby / dead trees and barely-formed glaciers becomes really annoying. The ability to right-click them to toggle whether they are active or not would be really nice. Another thing that could help is having them not acquire work targets unless the player is close to the target (very close), but still allow them to continue working on them when the player moves a bit away.
3. It would make playing him feel so much better if you could switch minion types without having to kill and resummon them. I gave an example implementation of this in the imbuing thread, and it was really quite easy to do. If this is something the devs definitely don't want to do, then I'd like to hear that too, so I can just go ahead and make it a mod (but I don't want to make it a mod if that's going to prevent the devs from doing it...).
4. Having several workers makes your sanity low, but not low enough for it to really matter for anything. Hanging around in this state sucks though, primarily because of the sanity noise. It feels bad to have the main reason to not do something be "because it sounds incredibly annoying". A system like imbuing would help with this by making it more feasible to have just a couple of minions whose type you switch. To fix it with the current system would probably require retuning the sanity thresholds for sound effects for Maxwell, which seems a bit extreme and probably annoying to implement. Or maybe the game could check if the low sanity was produced by a sanity cap or not, and only scale the sound within the current and capped-max sanity.
5. Loggers run away from poison birchnuts, which can't be attacked, only chopped. If they didn't run away they'd be very helpful there.

He also seems a little bit too strong, and obviously removing these annoyances would make him stronger. So what can we do do nerf him without making playing him more annoying? Some ideas:

1. Increase the cost of making workers. This would be especially relevant if you could change their type, as you'd be summoning less often and it'd be more important to hang onto them. Making them cost 6 nightmare fuel seems reasonable to me, but you could even bring back a health cost or something (this would probably make the most sense if we went back to summoning minions by reading the book, rather than crafting, which an imbuing system would greatly facilitate, as there would no longer need to be ways to make different types of minions, aside from imbuing)
2. Actually I guess that's my only good idea. Suggestions?

I hate to agree a long list of stuff, but, every single one is SO GOOD SUGGESTIONS. Please, Klei, if you really don't care about any of those suggestions above, please AT LEAST FIX SANITY NOISE.

[hyiltiz]

15 hours ago, StarvedKasad said:

-Puppets can wear armor

Seriously? I bet you just came from the beaver post.

[Arlesienne]

Let us start with preventing duelists from attacking Anything That Moves. Like tamed beefies. Razing down entire forests and rockylands is just unfair to others too.

[Tumalu]

They removed Abigail's constant loud moans with Wendy once you could have her around permanently, so maybe they would remove Maxwell's constant insanity effects when having a couple workers summoned, now that they last until death (and are unlikely to be dismissed on purpose, due to their cost). It would be pretty dang nice.

...I think it'd be nice if, to make on-purpose dismissal more useful (like when you're done with loggers, or want a different minion, etc) they dropped nightmare fuel if you attack them yourself to get rid of them. Still nothing when killed by enemies, but just if you do it. Just one, so it's only half their cost. You could also dismiss ones if you're going somewhere you know they're all gonna die a horrible death, etc.

I think it'd add depth to managing them, and also deal with the complaints of "but they keep doing dumb things when I'm through with them" and "they died to an earthquake in one hit!" and "but I want to be able to summon a different one without wasting all this fuel". Without having to implement an imbuement system or a turn-off switch. I think the switch would be nice too, though (like maybe right click on the minion to switch it's actions off) if the devs like it more, but I think dropping one fuel on Maxwell dismissal would be more interesting.

[228]

Yes, all points made are good, but lets not forget that you are dealing with klei. Did they really change anything about willow and woodie according to users' feedback? No? Now guess what? Maxwell will stay as he is, I'm 100% sure about it. (it doesn't make me happy though)

[Ipsquiggle]

Hey @rezecib, sorry I haven't gotten back to you about this. (I do recall telling you I would on the stream!)

We've given this some thought, and we're comfortable with Maxwell's mechanics as they are. There will inevitably be balance changes over time, but the character is playing as intended: We want the puppets to have a strong up-front cost/choice for the puppet abilities. So, I would recommend going full-tilt with your mod. (Which does work well, by the way!)

However, we are putting out a tweak so that you get back some fuel in the next patch, and the point about the sanity effects is valuable so we'll be looking at that as well.

As always, thanks for posting your detailed feedback! I really do appreciate it.

Edit: @vito improved the AI in a recent patch as well, I'd be glad to know if that has helped.

[StarvedKasad]

10 hours ago, hyiltiz said:

Seriously? I bet you just came from the beaver post.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Tumalu]

5 hours ago, Ipsquiggle said:

However, we are putting out a tweak so that you get back some fuel in the next patch, and the point about the sanity effects is valuable so we'll be looking at that as well.

Oh man, awesome! Maxwell's gonna start getting onto my list of general character choices once these are out, I think.

[leonseye]

2 hours ago, StarvedKasad said:

What does that have to do with anything?

It was just one of the suggestions made in that thread.

I don't think that letting something extremely frail wear armor is a new or novel idea, and certainly not something worth starting an internet slapfight over.

Now skins, that's another matter...

[SuperPsiPower]

Imo Maxwell is fine the way he is, I'd rather have a puppet cost 2 fuel and a tool then have it be increased to 6. The main reason for this is that Maxwell's very place in PVP and PvE is reliable only because of his strength of using nightmare fuel. Plus, I can effectively farm nightmare fuel with 2 duelists and a logger which lowers my maximum sanity is 20. 

The imbuing mod is great but keep the crafting the same and the cost of nightmare fuel the same. The way it should be is making a minion the usual way, then use the "give" option to give a nightmare minion 1 fuel and said tool for helper. Also, if it was changed to cost 6 fuel, how would he be able to get more fuel fast enough early game? His spawning amount would just be enough for one.

I will agree however that ALL puppets should have 75 health. It's no fun when im walking in the caves and mining everything in sight and then flint destorys my minions, or better yet make it so that they arent affected by falling minerals.

12 hours ago, Ipsquiggle said:

However, we are putting out a tweak so that you get back some fuel in the next patch, and the point about the sanity effects is valuable so we'll be looking at that as well.