Cave Implementation ideas?

[ThaumicParrot]

So as we all know, caves are soon coming to DST. But as with the rest of the world, I'm caves will need re-balancing or some new content to even things out. As said in one of the streams, this image shows how caves will get harder and harder as you go towards the center:

Here are a few of my ideas:

 

1. Moleworm Biome: An easy biome towards the outskirts of the caves. It would be full of moleworms and stalagmites so people could easily gain lots of morsels and resources to venture deeper towards the center of the caves.

 

2. Underground Mini-bosses: Since caves can be used as an easy access way through winter or summer, I think minibosses would be a good way to even out the difficulty. 

-Moleworm Elder: A longer, bigger, moleworm with more legs. It would go around eating rocks and the like and attack players. It could have maybe 750 health, and drop 8 meat, 8-16 rocks/flint/gold/nitre/red or blue gems, and two lightbulbs as its big bright eyes.

-Landprey- A large, beige, snake creature with one big eye as well as a round mouth and teeth that spin like a reverse circular saw blade. It would circle players swiftly while burrowing underground. It would be able to attack very fast but not do too much damage. It could have around 600 health and drop 6 monster meat, 8 hound teeth, and 3-5 landprey tears, which could fill a miner hat 30%.

 

Those are my ideas. What do you think the devs should do to caves?

[Pyromailmann]

I almost misread Moleworm for Mole Rat because I've been playing too much Fallout as of late.

I like all these ideas, the caves, despite being really cool, didn't get much introduced after the Depths Worms update. It only got the seasonal effects from RoG. And nothing else was changed. Caves need an overhaul

Plus, I find it old people constantly ask for caves. Seriously. They're in high demand. I didn't see anything so amazing about them. They were cool, sure. But they weren't the best thing about Don't Starve.

[GuyNamedChris]

or how about Bearger hibernating in the caves during the off season?

[FTR]

So as we all know, caves are soon coming to DST.

 

Really? Is there any news about this or it's just "soon" as within few next months?

[GuyNamedChris]

Really? Is there any news about this or it's just "soon" as within few next months?

you dont watch the livestreams do you?

[FTR]

you dont watch the livestreams do you?

 

Yea I don't really. But I am looking forward caves update.

[XirmiX]

I almost misread Moleworm for Mole Rat because I've been playing too much Fallout as of late.

I like all these ideas, the caves, despite being really cool, didn't get much introduced after the Depths Worms update. It only got the seasonal effects from RoG. And nothing else was changed. Caves need an overhaul

Plus, I find it old people constantly ask for caves. Seriously. They're in high demand. I didn't see anything so amazing about them. They were cool, sure. But they weren't the best thing about Don't Starve.

Who are you calling old, dear, I'm only 87!

I would say the ideas are kind of meh. Not as much creativity. It feels like he/she made those up along the way just because he/she wants more cave content. That is not a great way of to do dem tings.

What I had though is that the outskirts could be resource full, like with trees, bushes, grass and twigs. Next, it could be bats and bunnymen (it would be very bad for Wigfrid players and Webber players or any character players in general if Bunnymen are right on the outskirts if the players have meat on them. Webber is a monster anyway so...). Slurtles and Slurpers, along with all the mushtrees would be great for them to be at this level too. Rock lobster could also be found there, but first their overpopulation needs fixing (it would be inconvenient having them around near the outskirts if you're building a base there, similarly to having beefalos too close to your base). Third could be swamp with tentacles and/or generic or cave spider dens around. In the center would be something even more dangerous, like a Hybernating bearger and in this place is where the single ruins entrance would be located in or something. If Bearger does hybernate in caves, then he should also some sort of big cave entrance or something.

In terms of Depth Worms, it would be great if their health stayed the same instead of being doubled, if they wouldnot come as often as they do in the end, but would come in place of hound attacks at the exact time and may be they would despawn after a new depth worm attack has occurred.

Something I really hate about caves and ruins is that for RoG versions, it rains there, which is illogical. I'd suggest that instead of rain, there could be some places where water drips in and if you stand under them, your wetness would go up. Good to keep the challenge, but check in with logic first pls!

And last, I would be very disappointed if they did not make thulecite fragments as well as the green, yellow and orange gems to fall during earthquakes in the ruins.

It would be great if you could get renewable:

Flint, gold, nitre, moon rock, red gem, blue gem and purple gem - on the surface

Flint, gold, nitre, marble, red gem, blue gem and purple gem - in caves

Flint, gold, nitre, thulecite fragments, green gem, orange gem and yellow gem - in ruins

This way, each place has a reason to stay for earthquakes/meteor showers. So may be the earthquakes could happen in caves and ruins generically during the times of meteor showers on the surface?

[ThaumicParrot]

Something I really hate about caves and ruins is that for RoG versions, it rains there, which is illogical. I'd suggest that instead of rain, there could be some places where water drips in and if you stand under them, your wetness would go up. Good to keep the challenge, but check in with logic first pls!

 

I totally agree, cave rain doesn't make any sense. It should only rain in the open areas where light pools from the overworld. 

[Johnny5isAlive]

Something I really hate about caves and ruins is that for RoG versions, it rains there, which is illogical. I'd suggest that instead of rain, there could be some places where water drips in and if you stand under them, your wetness would go up. Good to keep the challenge, but check in with logic first pls!

I totally agree, cave rain doesn't make any sense. It should only rain in the open areas where light pools from the overworld. 

The rain is seeping into the soil and gradually filtering down into the caves. However I think the effect should be lessoned to a degree, it may make things easier but I think just having patches of rain would make things look more interesting. 

[werlpolf]

I totally agree, cave rain doesn't make any sense

 

See it, that it is wet in caves and the drops you see there, shows you, that its going to be wet slowly

 

this image shows how caves will get harder and harder as you go towards the center

 

I recommend the opposite way: more harder the more you get away from the center. Else you can be trapped on one of the borders, not able to leave the caves / passing through the center and you die. All noobs will thank you.

 

 

Some points:

 

- caves does have several holes that are linking it to the upper world. This would also decrease the map generation and together with the upper world, the maps in DST are already very huge

 

- no withering or not as much as in the upper world. Then more player like to stay in the caves

 

- clockworks are surprising you, spawning near you and are attacking, like the deerclops -> more renewable gears ;-O

 

- if you are low on health, a krampus can appear, knock you out and throw you to the upper world, then taking the most of your things, showing the tounge and jumping down back into the caves

[Gingerbread]

It is not cave rain. Water leaking into caves. And that constant water leakage is only in spring. Not too fast like surface rain and it does not stop till summer. Caves are already too easy. I mean whole dont starve is already too easy. There is no need to make it even easier. Cave water leakage in spring is quite managable.

 

Caves problem is there should be a boss. I mean not one time boss in ruins there is an ancient guardian and once he is done, no boss. No boss in cave 1 from the beginning. Cave 2 aka ruins has ancient guardian as I mentioned.

[XirmiX]

It is not cave rain. Water leaking into caves. And that constant water leakage is only in spring. Not too fast like surface rain and it does not stop till summer. Caves are already too easy. I mean whole dont starve is already too easy. There is no need to make it even easier. Cave water leakage in spring is quite managable.

Caves problem is there should be a boss. I mean not one time boss in ruins there is an ancient guardian and once he is done, no boss. No boss in cave 1 from the beginning. Cave 2 aka ruins has ancient guardian as I mentioned.

I doubt that even during heavy rains that much water leaks into the caves or even ruins. Best if it would just be dripping water into the caves in multiple places across the map, but near entrances, it would be pouring like normal, though "rain" in caves and ruins would be synched with the rain on the overworld.

[ThaumicParrot]

Else you can be trapped on one of the borders, not able to leave the caves / passing through the center and you die.

 

Actually the borders are where the sinkholes are, on that map the arrows represent sinkholes so when you enter the cave it's not immediately hard. 

[Gingerbread]

 

 

2. Underground Mini-bosses: Since caves can be used as an easy access way through winter or summer, I think minibosses would be a good way to even out the difficulty. 

-Moleworm Elder: A longer, bigger, moleworm with more legs. It would go around eating rocks and the like and attack players. It could have maybe 750 health, and drop 8 meat, 8-16 rocks/flint/gold/nitre/red or blue gems, and two lightbulbs as its big bright eyes.

-Landprey- A large, beige, snake creature with one big eye as well as a round mouth and teeth that spin like a reverse circular saw blade. It would circle players swiftly while burrowing underground. It would be able to attack very fast but not do too much damage. It could have around 600 health and drop 6 monster meat, 8 hound teeth, and 3-5 landprey tears, which could fill a miner hat 30%.

 

Those are my ideas. What do you think the devs should do to caves?

 

Too much meat for a 750 hp monster. Landprey has not much hp too. You said mini bosses, ok i am side with you there should be bosses but not like mini boss. There should be some beefy bosses with 4000 5000 hp. Not like a boss can hardly beat a beefalo. Because this is a game that will be played together. 3 wolfgang with dark swords can do 120 damage or above (approximately, lets say) 120x3=360 so these "mini!?" bosses can be killed with a wolfgang group just with 2 hits. It would be too easy.

 

[werlpolf]

Actually the borders are where the sinkholes are, on that map the arrows represent sinkholes so when you enter the cave it's not immediately hard.

 

Yes, then I support this, too. Would make a lot of fun, challenging by traveling in caves. But then we would maybe need to get used to have around 50 sink holes in the upper world. That will be confusing, except the sink-holes are geographically located on the same position in both maps - upper and under world.

 

I prefer both types: a cave with branches and less difficulty the more you go to the bordering branches (and in the end is a sink-hole) and the original and chaotic cave without much logical biome structure like the upper world is. The sink-holes of the 'chaotic' caves can be found in middle, since the holes on the border are let you enter into the structured, 'global' cave. Reminds me a little of Heroes Might and Magic

[Dipps]

It seems that I finally got around explaining my thoughts on the caves in a fit form. At the start, I met a rough time getting into the core of the argument as the circumstances surrounding the caves were piled up in the back of my mind. Whilst the familiarity I have with the surface grants me a comfy time in debating and proposing actual ideas for balance, I found myself in some trouble when I started remembering every single experience I lived in the caves. The flushed result tied together by the mechanics designed by the devs was gone from my view, and I simply forgot how the atmosphere felt like when I was encountering the new gameplay. As the portions of time neighbouring updates around this area were extended, its place in my gameplay lessened dramatically. At this point, two years have passed without substantial cave updates. Its importance started to vanish in my eyes.

To refresh my understanding on the topic, I told myself it'd be neat to mine deeper into the problem of the cave's nature, and I started building up from there. I was tempted to knock off the environment potential that's basically what puts in movement the general atmosphere and lazily lay on bringing the pace of the area up by suggesting certain mobs that could strategically make the gameplay more dynamic and fun. Always a good idea. It just seemed off though, it didn't look like that much of a permanent solution. After a quick monologue on the matter, I got the concise idea that a complete overhaul to the caves was indeed something to be considered. It would sure raise the playerbase interest and absorb more players into exploring and enjoying the caves once again, right? Well, it could render the caves more appealing. But following realistic scenarios, that's not the answer by far.

The major turn off that follows a revamp stays within the time pressure and the community conflict it causes. Hotfixing evident obstacles out of the way and rearraging existent functions into guaranteed stability for new content to come is basic within steps of reconstruction. But as writing good plots takes time to explore, creating innovating twists and implementing them in action (and then rebuild till it doesn't glitch or fits its purpose more), performing heavy refashions can easily shift any concrete view of balance into a sloppy mess. You have to look out for every single detail, as they individually have a meaning that serves in the finished state of the operation, and until everything comes together smoothly, you have little hints on whether or not your work will provide any rigid results. Until the vision is nailed down, most if not everything is built on a floor of soft discord.

This places you into especially narrow situations the farther you go in the realization process. You have to factor at any point that the community which receives the outcome expects a tight structure which is sure to be polished constantly after publication. You can't throw at them a sloppy mess, as attraction and interest can rot way faster than that untidy structure. So the moment you are squeezing down the technicalities of the construction, you have to pursue certain ideals and a grand picture that will help you determine if something can work out in a certain area or not. Experience does help a lot at this part. As creation takes time to fulfill, demands will obviously start floating in the air. This is why most of the times, unless you can either pull off a solid shape at once, you have to do small updates regularly, and plan a lot in advance.

That being said, just as a human can advance considerably and grow sharper, taller and stronger really quickly, well thought ideas and mechanisms grow unnoticeably more pleasant and seem to fit inside the game as more functions are built around it with care. It pulls the constitution together firmly. This is what decides how fast can a creation start to shine, if it can at all; it takes passion and motivation to create good content, and nothing is to be rushed. It's not common that someone has gets a brilliant idea which basically revalues entire projects without effort or time spent. This exists and happens, but it's very rare. And even then, it's likely that the idea is built up from experience and mental exercise/immagination from the past.

The particular reason specified above made me contemplate more on what could bring the caves a well deserved merit. I took an insight of what the concept of caves represents, and I thought up what can be done in the limited ammount of time and circumstances in general that someone can find himself in above. As I said beforehand, being induced into quick fixes for the obsolote gameplay by adding new mobs and distribuiting their roles in the existing cave can be an easy task, but not long-lasting. At the same time, immediately revamping the system can have a negative impact and be drawn out. Every idea is worth keeping, but knowing the length of the overhaul process and what exactly is going to be changed is necessary. If you want your mob to have a meaning in the world and affect it, that is. Content just for content is a preference, not exactly a fan of it.

Whenever I'm thinking about dynamic actions centering the caves, I'm incited by a series of ideas about the ecosystem of such lively environment. Taking an example from real world, every single species greatly influences the fate of another and they contribute to the active changes within the food chain. This kind of thought process can get you some promising ideas, but that's that. There are some rationale basis that prevent this sort of development in a place like Don't Starve. Even if more diversity in the nature balance is always nice, it's obvious that this type of nature acts as foreseeable as it can get. The kind of manufactured artificial environment in which this game is set allows tamed nature and fauna to coexist and not get out of hand for the vast majority of animals do not need to be fed, they chose to do it. Every single behavior is set in stone behind the aggro state.

What really throws off a complex ecosystem from ever being exponentially useful in practice, though, is the intervention of the human. This particular intelligent living being loves to keep threatening wild animals in control, especially if they are capable of making his death viable. His decisions alone can either spare a world full of such animals, or can destructively and brutally end it. Hell, this is an accurate representation of how we ended up where we are now, if we put it in a nutshell. Our unpredictable actions fueled by our intellect and neverending curiosity and potential to learn contrast too much in comparison with simple-minded needs that are leaded by a limitated set of reactions that is the artificial medium of this game. But this is EXACTLY what makes incredible environments possible; the need to overcome the human. This is the base of a connected and punishable habitat that can make survival games satisfying.

After reading into the concept of a fauna and flora that managed to evolve enough in the need to overcome humanity, I saw that caves are the ideal test field to put something like this in motion. Animals, in nature, are bound to be aggresive against one another. As a matter of fact, most of the natural enemies are created by life threatening positions to one's life such as sharing the same target (and thereof the possibility of ending up with no food for dinner), or one speces serving as the fuel needed for a stronger lifeform to keep surviving. At the exact opposite of the pool, we have natural friendshipts, that requires a race being capable of expressing its desire for co-dependence in front of another and act efficiently through teamwork to kneel down dangers which couldn't have been handled alone. They have the wisdom of helping others by offering services and sharing the loot.

Nevermind the specific cases that bound enmity upon two different beings, we have to consider Don't Starve world's unique nature and origins whenever we are talking about biological communities, how they develop and how they will interact with other communities of the sorts. Otherwise we will be missing on a lot of action. It was confirmed by Maxwell himself a while ago that this world is deliberately driven by vague entities we define as the Shadows. They realized the confinement of this strange world; there was only dusk at the beginning. I assume their implications in the world and the fact that this is a digital game are the cause behind the predictible and static evolution.

If the Shadows are the so called rulers of this place, if they pull the ropes and the direction of this world instead of watching on the sidelines, it wouldn't be surprising if their hatred for humanity (see here for more details on this theory) angered them to the point of taking extra measurements by brainwashing and driving mobs in this insane and induced blood thirst when they interact with most signs of human. If what we call aggressive mobs would be so alerted by our presence, their bodies and minds would be forced to to cooperate for once with their natural enemies to sign our end. While this is an alterate route I'm going to take I'm discussing, it can still be considered a sugestion nonetheless. It's clearly not present in practice. On the surface it doesn't need to, it'd be interesting downwards though. The closer you are to the Ancient Civilization's marks, which could even be the Nightmare's home, the stronger the cooperation.

If it's clear enough how an environment motivated by simple needs and tasks will not be able to face humanity properly, it's easy to see how the life forms would not fall behind. If they were to learn human weaknesses, progress forward, and have their hatred towards our population be advanced with all their might. They decide to share services, help each other, and their goal is to erase our existance. This would not be a pretty place to seat in; not at all. In fact, the point this becomes a thing is the second I will truly consider this game, at least in this area, to have present a honest uncompromising survival experience. It's a cycle of neverending ill will that can only be overthrown by us through improving. And as what protects us from this ridiculous frenzy is the intellect and the will, hope is not completely watered.

We have seen forms of intelect already in-game. There are other animals that achieved intelligence and ability to talk, as simpleminded as they ould be. These guys have seen quite a lot happen around and decided to stay strong to their moralities for the better of the group. They learnt how tribe and sharing works, and are willing to help us humans disregarding the potential malice we could carry. I am talking about the pigmen and the bunnymen; these dudes, as gullible and weak as they may be, have strong standards. Their share of service is proportionally offered with your contribution (pigmen) and their sturdy morals allow them a sense of order (bunnymen) and protection against the frenzy. These two are your only buddies in the hazardous underworld driven by hatred.

After managing to polish a post of this length I'm already burnt out. I'll get some logs for the fuel, next time I'll imply more suggestions!

[Nike_Ritual]

OMG THIS F*KING WALL OH

[ImDaMisterL]

These two are your only buddies in the hazardous underworld driven by hatred.

What about Chester, though? And Glommer? 

 

These two don't count, I just noticed that : P

[werlpolf]

It seems that I finally got around explaining my thoughts on the caves in a fit form

 

I'll get some logs for the fuel, next time I'll imply more suggestions!

 

Ok, respect for writing a few pages. Someone can push it into a Wiki page or discuss these points first. That bring much more life into DST like other games also contain interesting background information.

 

BUT in this thread it is going about (Cave) IMPLEMENTATION ideas XD

 

[Dipps]

 

Ok, respect for writing a few pages. Someone can push it into a Wiki page or discuss these points first. That bring much more life into DST like other games also contain interesting background information.

 

BUT in this thread it is going about (Cave) IMPLEMENTATION ideas XD

 

It's sorta fun you are saying that even though you posted this under general discussion, you know.

 

My writing post wasn't plain fodder to be fed to bird, writing just for writing. I figured I'd shed my thoughts on some paper about the whole caves ideas and how they need a rework. Even though a wall of text can seem ferocious, I word my sentences in the most soft and chill tone so people can digest them without struggling to wander around the words. I also foreshadow every idea bit by bit so it's easily comprehensive, without a reread being needed - but I also aim it to make it consistent and fun/interesting (or at least not boring). I'm bound to not be perfect, and hey. I may be biased because I like long chunks of text. So I guess a few people need a TL;DR. It's below.

 

I thoroughly expressed my thought process on how the caves should be reworked, in general that is. I explained how I came down to the conclusion through a loose buildup of 6 pharagraphs and then I made a little exposition to show a perspective from with my suggestion could totally match the world of Don't Starve. The principal implementation idea was increasing the danger opposed to the player by creating an environment prepared to take on humans. For reasons I mentioned in my long post, the mobs and the environment should work together to put an end to the human race; every single aggressive species follows the same goal. To end your life through teamwork. These are the basics.

[werlpolf]

Even though a wall of text can seem ferocious

 

No no, its fine. You don't need to explain yourself. Actually I wish I would ve also much time to read good story books and then able to write like you! But I even don't ve time reading much at all.

 

buildup of 6 pharagraphs and then I made a little exposition

I am counting 13 paragraphs

 

the mobs and the environment should work together to put an end to the human race; every single aggressive species follows the same goal. To end your life through teamwork.

 

Yeah, this I also ve read in your previous post, but wasn't sure, if it was meant philosophical or it was for real. I think, under such situations only super heroes can survive: Fighting 10 bunnies, while 100 spiders making a wall blocking your way out, monkeys shouting around to lure a cave-dragon to your position and causing in same time an earthquake, which drops massive boulders making any escape impossible and creating holes where gigantic tentacles getting out ready to take your dead body away. If that's it, what you mean, I don't want to ve caves or will never go there XD

 

 

[UnionGaming]

inb4 camp under sinkhole

[Nickolas2600]

 

 

 the mobs and the environment should work together to put an end to the human race; every single aggressive species follows the same goal. To end your life through teamwork. 

That wouldnt make sense the the natural life system. Some animals kill Humans but that doesnt mean both those animals work together. Animals kill humans for food or because they fear for their life. That's how it should be in dont stave as well

[Maris]

Two things:

1) Unlimited number of servers in the chain (not just 2 servers).

2) Common chat for all servers.

 

Other things can be added later via mods.

[Nickolas2600]

If i had new idea for caves it would be to add more challenge but better rewards. I mean the Thuclite is cool but really not nesscary I wan't a big reason to have to go out of my way to explore caves rather than cool but not needed armor and weapons. I also want to see a better use of alot of things in it to be prefectly honest I am hoping to see an overhaul to caves and the state caves are in now I don't see why people are so hyped about it. In a normal single player game I barely ever go into them.