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UnderwearApp

Please keep weather in caves

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oCrapaCreeper    3252

I can stand raining in the first level of caves, kinda makes sense in a way since the water soaks into the ground and drips. Maybe the ruins too.

 

Overheating on the other hand, no. Not only does it not make sense, but it's inconsistent. Standing under a tree makes you cooler, but standing underground doesn't? There should at least be a significant delay in overheating when in the caves. Especially in the ruins where it would make more sense to freeze rather than overheat.

 

Overheating in the caves doesn't add anything difficult or new, it's simply annoying to deal with. We need more unique mechanics like the Nightmare Cycle that actually add some challenge and new stuff.

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brummbar7    513

yet again i point you to the lord of the rings example ,  you can have high fantasy  with out throwing away basic things like the laws of physics and weather.  by that logic  wilson should clip through walls  because the heat some how is . 

My criticism was not the typical "the game has so many wacky elements, it can have anything" tack.  My criticism was of these imaginary people you bring up.  These people who presumably enjoy the fantastic elements of don't starve, which are great, but would be totally turned off by one specific non-realistic item. 

 

I totally agree that all games must have a *basis* in reality.  You can't have the tool for chopping down trees be maracas.  That will just confuse people.  A certain amount of logic must underpin the game or it will be like adventuring in a Dali painting.  Heat underground in entirely reasonable.  In fact, the deeper you go underground irl the hotter it will get, relative to shallower ground.  You have to get ridiculously deep though. 

 

What's all that void around the underground?  That bottomloss darkness pit?  What do you think is at the bottom of that?  The center of the DS world?  Alternately hot or cold depending on some magical season?  The cold aspect of the underground is the MOST difficult to logicize.  I can explain away the entire heat mechanic by nothing else than saying heat is rising up from the magma at the bottom of the pit that surrounds the entire underground. 

 

All those totally awesome things are in the vanilla game. A person who owns the vanilla game might be less likely to buy the DLC, because it is a huge turn off as saltychipmonk said.

Let me ask all you 'realism' people this: If Klei put in magma pools that appear when the caves are hot, what then?  Will you still complain?   I think you will and I think the reason most people complain about it is that it's too hard or micromanagy for them, but they don't want to admit it.

 

Now if someone doesn't want to buy the DLC because there's heat in caves and it's too hard,  that's a valid criticism and a possible problem that Klei might want to consider.  That kind of thing is what betas are for.   But you and these imaginary people need to *admit* it's because it's too hard.   If logic is REALLY these imaginary non-DLC buyers' problem they're not going to buy the game in the first place.  They're going to buy one of those hyper-real flight sims, or Papers Please, or something like that.  Because there are WAY more illogical aspects to Don't Starve than 'where does underground heat come from'.

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UnderwearApp    162

I can stand raining in the first level of caves, kinda makes sense in a way since the water soaks into the ground and drips. Maybe the ruins too.

 

Overheating on the other hand, no. Not only does it not make sense, but it's inconsistent. Standing under a tree makes you cooler, but standing underground doesn't? There should at least be a significant delay in overheating when in the caves. Especially in the ruins where it would make more sense to freeze rather than overheat.

 

Overheating in the caves doesn't add anything difficult or new, it's simply annoying to deal with. We need more unique mechanics like the Nightmare Cycle that actually add some challenge and new stuff.

Unfortunately nothing new is being added to the caves right now as I've already stated, therefore the choice is nothing or weather. I can respect people who would rather have nothing, even if I disagree, but I would also appreciate if those people would be open to having a toggle to turn off more difficult things as you can with many other items you may not want in the world.

 

I would agree to slower overheating if you were more likely to freeze underground during other seasons. Ruins to me signify heat, but they could have it so it is freezing all of the time in the ruins. It would make more sense as you said, but I am fairly certain there would still be tons of complaints about "having to carry winter gear even if it is summer"!?!?!

 

Basically, I think most people just don't like the challenge, and are hiding behind the "OMG logic logic" argument. This is based on the fact that I and others have suggested changes to the weather underground, and still hear "NO! WEATHER SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM CAVES". I am all for changes to the system, but not to make it easier, more of a tradeoff.

 

So maybe overheat slower, but if spring or fall, chance of freezing (ambient temp ~5 degrees), and always freezing in the ruins, but no overheat, so you would have to stock a puffy vest or something to go ruins....ing? and stop to warm up periodically. Does this sound better to most?

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MrMushroomy    25

I'm all for having an option, as I'll just turn it off and play. I do see why people don't like it, but why are you so adamant on removing it entirely? Rain, on the other hand, should not even get an option. What I think is that either there's an option, which I'd prefer to having without one, or even better off entirely. And as saltychipmunk said, it's just not creative and is a nuisance. I don't think weather in caves should match weather on the surface, but instead be cold. Not freezing to death 2 seconds after your heat stone runs out level cold, but cold enough that it makes caves a slightly bigger challenge in a way that makes sense, as overheating in a sinkhole makes absolutely no sense.

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Norman1346    24

Let me ask all you 'realism' people this: If Klei put in magma pools that appear when the caves are hot, what then?  Will you still complain?   I think you will and I think the reason most people complain about it is that it's too hard or micromanagy for them, but they don't want to admit it.

 

Don't misrepresent my argument. That is in poor taste. I mean what I say. My problem is not the difficulty. I welcome more challenge.

 

It is that rain underground breaks the fantasy. It is illogical that caves are dark and have rain. Many other fantastic elements in the game are fantastic without being ridiculous like this so they are not comparable. The caves have stalagmites for crying out loud. They don't form under rain and would disintegrate.

 

I am not a realism person. There is nothing else in the game that bothers me like this.

 

I like to think that the 'void' areas are inside solid rock and the character does not see that. It does not bother me. I can accept the heat and cold because maybe these caves are just not that deep. I will be perfectly fine with lava.

 

I think some people don't want to be honest and admit how much it ruins the fantasy for others because they only care about maximum challenge. That is what it is all about for me, fantasy. I don't just play games for a challenge.

 

Rain in caves breaks the atmosphere that is built by all the other aspects of the game.

 

Edit: You know the void in the walls cave was a good thing to mention. Like i said I can use my imagination so it keeps the fantasy solid. I can image deerclops, and pig men, and even magic powers, but the rain in caves defeats my minds ability to see the DS world as a real place.

 

Edit2: What if they changed earth quakes so they were almost always causing your health level to fall as debris hit you? The umbrella and hats could protect in the same way, just for health. That would be something you had to manage. It would probably be harder then rain and it would not break the fantasy. Just a thought as to how they might make everyone happy since there seems to be such a passionate disagreement on this.

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MrMushroomy    25

Edit2: What if they changed earth quakes so they were almost always causing your health level to fall as debris hit you? The umbrella and hats could protect in the same way, just for health. That would be something you had to manage. It would probably be harder then rain and it would not break the fantasy. Just a thought as to how they might make everyone happy since there seems to be such a passionate disagreement on this.

That would be a lot better than rain, as it makes more sense and makes earthquakes more of a challenge than just getting tons of free gems for minimal costs.

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My criticism was not the typica

Now if someone doesn't want to buy the DLC because there's heat in caves and it's too hard, that's a valid criticism and a possible problem that Klei might want to consider. That kind of thing is what betas are for. But you and these imaginary people need to *admit* it's because it's too hard. If logic is REALLY these imaginary non-DLC buyers' problem they're not going to buy the game in the first place. They're going to buy one of those hyper-real flight sims, or Papers Please, or something like that. Because there are WAY more illogical aspects to Don't Starve than 'where does underground heat come from'.

.

Your argument falls flat exactly because the source of the heat makes no sense.

If it were lava that is one thing .. But is not. It is quite obvious that it is the weather above that is doing it... And not anything in the caves

Even the more fantastic elements you are trying to use make a lot more sense than the caves right now.

They are all properly explained by magic or curses or physics .

But the weather in caves have no explanation .logical fantastical or anything.

And that is where it fails. Not only does it not make sense to the laws of physics.... It doesn't even make sense in the context of the rules of the game...

Which are actually quite strict if you look close enough.

And stop with the hard argument. Nothing in this game is hard given enough preparation that is how these games work.

I could light up the whole cave system with camp fires given enough time and play it exactly like a dark world option top world

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MrMushroomy    25

Ok, everyone, do you remember what I said? Forget about that. I froze to death in the ruins because it non-stop rains in my caves, despite surface weather. Something is very wrong with that, and something needs to be done.  

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An Artifact    4139

Ok, everyone, do you remember what I said? Forget about that. I froze to death in the ruins because it non-stop rains in my caves, despite surface weather. Something is very wrong with that, and something needs to be done.  

Exactly.

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ARamblingSpider    1536

I can stand raining in the first level of caves, kinda makes sense in a way since the water soaks into the ground and drips. Maybe the ruins too.

 

Overheating on the other hand, no. Not only does it not make sense, but it's inconsistent. Standing under a tree makes you cooler, but standing underground doesn't? There should at least be a significant delay in overheating when in the caves. Especially in the ruins where it would make more sense to freeze rather than overheat.

 

Overheating in the caves doesn't add anything difficult or new, it's simply annoying to deal with. We need more unique mechanics like the Nightmare Cycle that actually add some challenge and new stuff.

Exactly.

 

The caves and Ruins are supposed to be different, having weather in the caves just doesn't seem right to me like you stated above. I would rather have more mechanics exploring the nightmare cycle or some sort of cave giant than weather,

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Doomfan64    187

I think they should add the Lava Caves and such, but as a new biome. Frosty caverns for freezing, lava caves for overheating, and for spring... I dunno. 

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brummbar7    513

Your argument falls flat exactly because the source of the heat makes no sense.  If it were lava that is one thing .. But is not. It is quite obvious that it is the weather above that is doing it... And not anything in the caves. 

The source makes perfect sense if you just think about it a bit, of the heat easily, the rain a little less so but plausible (since water does actually drip from cave ceilings), and cold least so but hey, "magic".   The weather above has no visible cause either - you never see the sun, you never see rain clouds, nor snow clouds.  you never see any sky whatsoever.  You fill in that blank with your rl experience though.  Simple.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Klei to bring in a bit more scenery like lava pools, make it clear what's going on.  I've also suggested elsewhere that weather in caves be decoupled from above ground seasons, precisely so that caves do not seem so much a copy of the above ground world.  But you see, I do not go straight to "remove weather from caves".  Because I can fill in the blanks well enough myself.  And I can make suggestions to make the situation better.  That's what people do when they're ok with a general idea (or at least, see the reason it's being done) but not quite ok with the implementation.  Now, if someone just doesn't like the idea at all and wants it gone, THAT is when they start saying "It's unrealistic remove it!".  But It's ok to keep the part where I can feed a 1 lb bird 20 lbs of meat and it instantly shoots out 20 eggs.   It's ok crock potting a variety of raw ingredients results in silverware and dishes.  It's ok that gold tools last far longer than ones made of flint.  etc.

 

 

But the weather in caves have no explanation .logical fantastical or anything.

So ask yourself, are you ok with environmental temperature effects if there are obvious graphical references to their cause (lava pools, or frosty magic ice pillars)?  If not, then your problem is not logic, it's the effect.  Which means it was probably too hard, or too tedious for you, and again, those are useful criticisms.  And not necessarily you personally, but you anticipate it being so for newbs.  I often try to keep that perspective in discussions because a lot of people forget that not everyone is experienced in DS vanilla.  I don't take that position in caves because newbs are not forced to deal with them and Klei has said they're meant to be optional.

If you're ok with cave weather after those visual cues are added, then your problem was indeed the logic.  Which is fine too, maybe that will prod Klei to do some quick additions.  So, will you be ok if some graphical cave-weather-causers are inserted, and perhaps the seasons are scrambled instead of correlating to the above ground seasons?

 

Different people have different thresholds of imagination I guess.  Believe it or not, I did have a reality problem at the start of RoG.  And that was the fact that winter wetness was almost forcing me to use an umbrella in winter.  That really rubbed me the wrong way,  and that wasn't even that unreal - people do that irl.  But mostly people REALLY concerned with their hair or clothes.  Not people in a survival situation.  That bugged me where weather in caves doesn't.  Go figure.

 

 

. It doesn't even make sense in the context of the rules of the game...Which are actually quite strict if you look close enough.

I don't know what rules you're referring to.  In a game with magic, there are hardly any insofar as cause and effect go.  One must be careful that one's own biases are not creating 'rules' that do not in fact exist.

 

And stop with the hard argument. Nothing in this game is hard given enough preparation that is how these games work.

Yes of course, that's why the forums are full of "cave weather is too hard" commentary.  I did not say impossible, I said hard.  And I did not say for everyone.  Different people have different skill levels and ideas of "hard".

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Its there so people wouldn't try hiding.

 

The only scary thing about the old caves was the ridiculous spider army guarding the ruins entrance with super powerful spitter spiders.

 

The scary things about the ruins still exist, but you don't want to stay there long anyway.

 

The challenge level is ruins, the caves are meant to be explored and whimsical.

I totally agree with the idea that the caves are meant to be explored and the ruins are the challenge level. Copy and Pasting weather to the caves just doesn't seem like the right answer.

 

Localized weather impact would probably be the best way Klei could fix this. Depending on the biome you are in, the seasons affect you differently.

 

Most cave biomes seasons could have zero affect on the temperature. (I sort of like the concept of rain being dripping water from the ceiling, but it should be toned down some in my opinion.)

 

Right below the sinkhole, the biome could be the type located on the surface. This would cause weather to affect the character right below the sinkhole, forcing them to not just camp there in harsh weather. People would have to either deal with perpetual darkness by entering cave biomes away from the sinkhole entrance or deal with weather.

 

Using this system, Klei could also make changes above ground. Deserts have always seemed odd in that they aren't hotter than the other biomes. This system could make deserts nearly unlivable in summer and safe from heavy rainfall in spring. This would promote the sort of give-and-take differences that make diversity fun.

 

Savannah and grassland biomes could have a greater affect on your temperature, (hotter in summer due to no shade and colder in winter due to wind) while forest/arbor biomes could be the opposite (more temperate due to shade and trees blocking the wind). To counterbalance this, you should be able to travel slightly faster in savannahs/grasslands. (because there is a lot less heavy vegetation) You could also switch it to make your character just slower in the arbor/forest biomes.

 

You could add one or two seasonal factors that give each biome it's own feel rather than just a different looking place with different things. But the main reason it applies here is that it fixes the issue of people hiding out at the entrances to caves, without it making the caves seem unrealistic.

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Ridley    610

I totally agree with the idea that the caves are meant to be explored and the ruins are the challenge level. Copy and Pasting weather to the caves just doesn't seem like the right answer.

 

Localized weather impact would probably be the best way Klei could fix this. Depending on the biome you are in, the seasons affect you differently.

 

Most cave biomes seasons could have zero affect on the temperature. (I sort of like the concept of rain being dripping water from the ceiling, but it should be toned down some in my opinion.)

 

Right below the sinkhole, the biome could be the type located on the surface. This would cause weather to affect the character right below the sinkhole, forcing them to not just camp there in harsh weather. People would have to either deal with perpetual darkness by entering cave biomes away from the sinkhole entrance or deal with weather.

 

Using this system, Klei could also make changes above ground. Deserts have always seemed odd in that they aren't hotter than the other biomes. This system could make deserts nearly unlivable in summer and safe from heavy rainfall in spring. This would promote the sort of give-and-take differences that make diversity fun.

 

Savannah and grassland biomes could have a greater affect on your temperature, (hotter in summer due to no shade and colder in winter due to wind) while forest/arbor biomes could be the opposite (more temperate due to shade and trees blocking the wind). To counterbalance this, you should be able to travel slightly faster in savannahs/grasslands. (because there is a lot less heavy vegetation) You could also switch it to make your character just slower in the arbor/forest biomes.

 

You could add one or two seasonal factors that give each biome it's own feel rather than just a different looking place with different things. But the main reason it applies here is that it fixes the issue of people hiding out at the entrances to caves, without it making the caves seem unrealistic.

 

 

I think the only people who could phrase appropriate responses to your suggestions is Klei. They go through a lot of "What if"s when balancing stuff I imagine, so they must've already considered ideas like yours.

 

 

Only reason I think weather is in the caves right now, is because people would not be happy about escaping the overheat mechanic by jumping into the cave while burning. Heaven forbid that a sinkhole happened to be close enough to save someone from overheating.

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jbeetle    1873

Heaven forbid that a sinkhole happened to be close enough to save someone from overheating.

You say that like people don't complain about things they could avoid that take away/add to difficulty.

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wall text

 

sigh I am being brick walled.  Plenty of people agree with my stance , if you wish to continue this rather absurd argument ,  i suggest we do so via pms  because it is getting out of hand on this thread.  You are most certainly  trying to pull explanations out of thin air to  explain away an unpopular mechanic. that isnt really a fair argument.

 

 weather in caves does not work , that is my final say on this topic 

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UnderwearApp    162

sigh I am being brick walled.  Plenty of people agree with my stance , if you wish to continue this rather absurd argument ,  i suggest we do so via pms  because it is getting out of hand on this thread.  You are most certainly  trying to pull explanations out of thin air to  explain away an unpopular mechanic. that isnt really a fair argument.

 

 weather in caves does not work , that is my final say on this topic 

Well, I found the same response in another thread. "Sigh, reading is hard, this game is hard, turn off weather in caves. And while you're at it get rid of combustion and summer overheating mechanic. After DLC we can talk about removing giants, tallbirds, etc. I WANT BUILD BASE THAT IS SAFE."

 

Point is he made a well formulated response, and this is yours. The thread will not miss you.

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Well, I found the same response in another thread. "Sigh, reading is hard, this game is hard, turn off weather in caves. And while you're at it get rid of combustion and summer overheating mechanic. After DLC we can talk about removing giants, tallbirds, etc. I WANT BUILD BASE THAT IS SAFE."

 

Point is he made a well formulated response, and this is yours. The thread will not miss you.

 

oh i read it in full his examples are what I find at fault . He is basing the meat of his argument on things that are not or might ever be in the game  such as the addition of visual queues to justify  the weather

or things like  unseen lava or ice patches in the caves to explain the weather (except they dont because then the weather in caves would "still" be constant instead of based on the seasons) .

 

lava pools in caves would not  =  hot caves in the summer ... they would  = hot caves forever

and ice patches in caves  would not  = cold caves in the winter  they would = cold caves forever

 

and any one of those two or both would be more than enough to completely counter the affects of seasonal weather above .

 

But since the affects are seasonal , it stands to reason that lava pools and ice patches wont be in the game ... otherwise cave weather would not be tied to the seasons as they are now .

 

 

As nice to read as his post is , most of it doesn't actually target  my argument that well.

 

He uses only lightly related examples  of dubious value, such as 

 

strange animals (despite the fact that dinosaurs   are much stranger) 

the fact that we can cook things fast (despite the fact that it is obvious the game uses the common sped up ingame time mechanic common   most games with a day night cycle.)

 

 

 

But those really dont have anything to do with weather in caves. they are independent mechanics. 

 

but more importantly he is arguing about  how I state my opinion on the topic rather than the topic . That is something fit or a pm chat , not a forum. 

 

which is derailment , my previous post was to end  that derailment as a  courtesy , but i see that intention was missed entirely by you. 

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UnderwearApp    162

oh i read it in full his examples are what I find at fault . He is basing the meat of his argument on things that are not or might ever be in the game  such as the addition of visual queues to justify  the weather

or things like  unseen lava or ice patches in the caves to explain the weather (except they dont because then the weather in caves would "still" be constant instead of based on the seasons) .

 

lava pools in caves would not  =  hot caves in the summer ... they would  = hot caves forever

and ice patches in caves  would not  = cold caves in the winter  they would = cold caves forever

 

and any one of those two or both would be more than enough to completely counter the affects of seasonal weather above .

 

But since the affects are seasonal , it stands to reason that lava pools and ice patches wont be in the game ... otherwise cave weather would not be tied to the seasons as they are now .

 

 

As nice to read as his post is , most of it doesn't actually target  my argument that well.

 

He uses only lightly related examples  of dubious value, such as 

 

strange animals (despite the fact that dinosaurs   are much stranger) 

the fact that we can cook things fast (despite the fact that it is obvious the game uses the common sped up ingame time mechanic common   most games with a day night cycle.)

 

 

 

But those really dont have anything to do with weather in caves. they are independent mechanics. 

 

but more importantly he is arguing about  how I state my opinion on the topic rather than the topic . That is something fit or a pm chat , not a forum. 

 

which is derailment , my previous post was to end  that derailment as a  courtesy , but i see that intention was missed entirely by you. 

@brummbar kept the discussion around the caves and elements that don't make logical sense in the game I felt, not derailing the thread, but suggesting changes other than removing weather in caves, which is what the title of the thread is. So yes, I missed your intention.

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At first it was fine , but then we really got into the semantics of it all rather than just  stating the opinion   on the main topic. 

this is why i said he some what off target in his argument.

 

because we started to drift into things like what casual players think ,  game difficulty and  what might be later added in the game  to explain the current situation such as  *as an example* the lava pools  , or  the addition of visual ques. 

 

good intentions  but it really just started to drift more than a fair bit  than just a thread about keeping weather and caves.

 

especially when you start dedicating wall text to it , which is never a good sign. 

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Flypaste    14

Admittedly, I didn't read most of the arguing, but I would like to have the rain still drip into the caves.

However also have them isolated to the heat.

 

I feel like that would strike a bit of a balance, because caves are insulated against the elements IRL, and they can also have water dripping in through cracks.

 

Of course, everything would be null if they put in a worldgen setting.

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