What do you consider cheese for bosses?

[ChintzyGnat]

I gave examples for my questions. I don't think any of the bosses are bad those are just what popped in my head. (Yes ik fuelweaver lureplant cheese is patched).

I dont want a cheese is bad or good debate I just want to know what people consider as cheese.

[Wormboi]

This thread is gonna be a crapshow, you know that right?

[Frosty_Mentos]

Cheese would be an exploit of a bug, but DST is more full of features that kinda exist to be exploited. Since it's not competitive and you can do anything you want within your own or other's server, there's no point in arguing that cheese is just a dumb term community made for things that 'seem to not make sense' or 'seems too strong' as methods of dealing with things.

People call bees a cheese, gunpowder a cheese, fire stacking damage a cheese, etc. - but it's all just a feature and Klei took upon tuning bosses to have resistances or mechanics changed up cause of backlash from the community.

People would even call Wanda's range on her clock a cheese just because it's slightly longer reach than normal weapons yet does a lot of damage.

3 minutes ago, Wormboi said:

This thread is gonna be a crapshow, you know that right?

This, tbh. People will get really dumb really soon cause of this post.

[ChintzyGnat]

9 minutes ago, Wormboi said:

This thread is gonna be a crapshow, you know that right?

Yes

[Mike23Ua]

Obviously anything that breaks the games A.I. Thats the only valid, sensible & logical answer…

[Flarezen]

Cheese will be added to crockpot dish in the year 3000, i’m a time traveler from the distant future trust me bro

[Wormboi]

12 minutes ago, Flarezen said:

Cheese will be added to crockpot dish in the year 3000, i’m a time traveler from the distant future trust me bro

I mean we already got milk and barrels put two and two together...

[DegenerateFurry]

I consider some AI-breaking stuff (like the lureplant Fuelweaver method that was sadly patched) to be cheese. I don't really see Dragonfly walls as cheese, though. You could just surround the ponds with boxes and not even abuse pond collision and get the same effect.

Using weather pains/brightshade staffs for Fuelweaver isn't cheese, using followers for Bee Queen isn't cheese, using bees for Crab King isn't cheese, etc. 

I also don't really see it as impressive to do any combat as Wolfgang, so maybe that counts as viewing him as cheese? I dunno, the free double damage is just kind of cheap, especially since he has so few downsides as a character and it really is free. He's the easy mode character and that's that. It's not bad that there's an easy mode character - that's just what he is.

[Brotid01]

Since is not a competitive game and you can do wherever you want but by my own point of view, I can say maybe the following:

“Defeating a boss by using any non-intended way (by the devs) to defeat it, independent of the ability of the player or knowledge”.
This can mean but not limited to:

• Bugs.

• Glitches.

• Any other substantial advantage in comparison to your adversary in a manner not intended/approved by the devs.

So, following this rule.

Swapping characters, using Wolfgang with spicy food, Wanda, Merms, creating arenas or bring certain items as far you don't use anything mentioned before are fine because Klei give us the tools to allow us to do that in the first place or at least until Klei say otherwise.

Then again, is not a competitive game if you wanna use console commands, mods or glitches to kill bosses or give you advantages as far you’re having fun and don’t messing with other people’s fun all good.

[Echsrick]

there is no cheese in dontstarve together, only sand in a box, and even if there were, who REALY cares? the people claiming that there is cheese and only done the most basics of things on a boss? its nothing but 1 option they can do, i dont care if someone in this game comes with 20 merms to a beequeen battle or uses walls and panflute on dragonfly, if boss gets defeated then is it not a win even when used those tactics? are tactics and strategy not allowed?

[Guille6785]

kiting (you are trivializing the entire mechanic of the boss attacking you)

[BezKa]

[Mysterious box]

I would consider ai exploits and followers cheese and I stand by this despite Wurt being one of my main characters I think people just get too caught up in the idea that you should feel bad for cheesing. You shouldn't it's completely fine noone should feel bad about how they choose to engage with a video game or other forms of entertainment so long as it isn't harmful to others.

[Auth]

I consider cheese to be abusing a mechanic/boss's behaviors/AI/environment itself to make the fight easier, such as doing something to out-range a boss's attack, stunlocking, skipping a phase, or something like that.

I like a good amount of these things as they're usually reliant on good game knowledge or take some work/skill to pull off as a kind of equal exchange type deal. You know, like, "Put in the work or skill in X to make Y easier". Some behaviors are obviously more from oversights though, so if or when they ever get fixed, I don't mind.

However, it gets to a point where in some cases, like the FW+Lureplant thing, I don't consider it cheese, I consider it automation. Put a houndius there and it's fully automated.

To put it in another game's terminology, it's like comparing a redstone wither auto-farm to putting the wither at the nether ceiling so it can't fly around as much during the fight. One is still a fight, while the other is a device that gets set up and turns it into an automated loot-generating process.

For quite a long time, people have used the terminology of cheese for it, but I believe doing so is flawed. It's an automatic farm, simply because, after initial setup, it requires no player input besides spawning FW and telepoofing out, or back in simpler terms; after initial setup, it requires no player input besides "turning it on".

I'd advocate for people to not be afraid of using "automatic farm" terminology for such things because there's nothing inherently negative about it, but I think the ship has sailed as it's already in everyone's head as being referred to as cheese.

[Balter]

Using any kind of client mods.

Cheaty mods like attack que, action que, night visions, happy cheating, and the list goes on and on.

[_zwb]

"cheese" and "things I don't like" are basically the same here on the forums

[chirsg]

 If anything that you do results in the boss being defeated, you have cheesed it. 
This game isn't about defeating bosses. It's about not starving. It says so in the title. If I wanted to beat bosses, I would play "Beat Boss" Not "Don't Starve"

Weapons and tools don't have a place in a survival game. Only food. 

[AliceShiki]

Anything that trivializes the boss or that completely nullifies some of the boss' mechanics is considered a cheese to me.

But I want to clarify that I do not consider cheeses a bad thing. Quite the opposite. I think it's a good thing for cheeses to exist in a sandbox game. I think all bosses should be cheesable for a healthy DST environment.

Basically, to me, cheese is as much of a valid way to beat a boss as any other. And if you just want the rewards from the boss, you should cheese it without holding back... It's just the kind of method that won't be very fun to execute for most people (Dfly walls, killing Bearger with Treeguards and stuff, Bees + Ice Staff on old CK... etc) because the fight stops being a fight and becomes a simple way to get rewards with an appropriate setup... Which again, is fine! It's great, actually! It's good to have cheeses.

... But they're cheeses to me because they trivialize the content, and that's how I define a cheese.

[Evelo]

- Character Swapping for me is cheese. But I just detest the Celestial Portal.
- Breaking the fundamental mechanics of a boss fight is also a cheese, be it via AI pathfinding issues or others.
- Followers aren't cheese (well depends, killer bees yes, bee mines no, idk why my brain thinks this way) just boring and unfun for me (sorry Wurt.)
- Items aren't cheese either but it is more of a balance thing. Weather Pains are super annoying to farm for and are useful but not really cheese. Meanwhile the Brightshade Staff for AFW isn't cheese just kinda defeats the point of the boss because it is the same tier as CC. (Make CC harder? idk.)
- If you selected Wolfgang at the start no issue. Just hate Celestial Portal as stated before.

Cheese isn't an exploit. Klei has known of the pathfinding issues for over a decade. They decided to not fix it. So it is no longer a bug. (Maybe you can say the same for voidwalking?) Just opinions though, nothing truly matters.

[reddocc]

Geometric placement gives you an advantage over others that don't have

[cropo]

Cheese is a case-by-case basis and requires a unique look at what's happening to decide if it's cheesing something imo. If a reasonable person can look at a challenge in a game and see a player is circumventing the intended experience through obviously nefarious and unintended ways then the challenge is being "cheesed" whether it's exploiting a glitch or using legitimate game mechanics. 

I'm sure there are witty "gotcha" counter arguments to this, but again the idea relies on a reasonable person to look at what's happening and come to the conclusion of whether or not it's cheese, too many variables and context-sensitive things happening that might or might not make it cheese.

[NoodlemanNed]

i think kiting the attacks of enemies is considered to be cheese. Their AI is programmed to hit players when attacking, but you are exploiting said AI by preventing that from happening by moving too much. I might have zero insight into the development process but im still 100% certain that the developers intended for players to get hit by every attack that an enemy throws out, while also having exactly 2 other people do the same alongside you.

It really does fill my heart with sadness that people exploit such beautifully designed enemies by completely preventing them from causing any sort of threat. Hopefully in future updates the klei developers will get around to fixing the "kiting" exploit but for now all i can do is recommend people to avoid using it, as it makes the entire game objectively better.

[NPCMaxwell]

6 minutes ago, NoodlemanNed said:

i think kiting the attacks of enemies is considered to be cheese. Their AI is programmed to hit players when attacking, but you are exploiting said AI by preventing that from happening by moving too much. I might have zero insight into the development process but im still 100% certain that the developers intended for players to get hit by every attack that an enemy throws out, while also having exactly 2 other people do the same alongside you.

It really does fill my heart with sadness that people exploit such beautifully designed enemies by completely preventing them from causing any sort of threat. Hopefully in future updates the klei developers will get around to fixing the "kiting" exploit but for now all i can do is recommend people to avoid using it, as it makes the entire game objectively better.

I first read this with a serious voice and was so confused, but since I don't believe in the term "cheese" I think I got the intention of this being meant in a satirical way right.

[Gashzer]

Yeah calling using 40 bunnymen to "cheese" bee queen has always confused me. 

Like it's not cheese if you are using an intended mechanic and also if that mechanic requires alot of grind.

Cheeses are low cost/high reward exploits that requires little time to pull off.

For example making a wall line through magma pit is a low cost and quick way to cheese dfly larve that exploits AI.

However walling around every individual magma pit is not cheese in my book because at the end of the day, walls are doing what walls are meant to do and it requires more effort.

Using walls are not cheese for dfly, it's using them to break AI that's the cheese (larve shouldn't get caught in magma pit and should simply go around a straight line wall unlike being 360 boxed in which is not cheese)

[NoodlemanNed]

3 hours ago, NPCMaxwell said:

I think I got the intention of this being meant in a satirical way right.

this is my serious take for the week.
kiting enemies is exploiting their ai which makes it a cheese method.