How come Wormwood is allowed to help other characters, but Winona after getting her catapaults locked isn't?

[paulcdejean]

Wormwood can craft berry bushes, monkey tails, saplings and lureplant bulbs, and living logs, which other players can use. Wormwood can craft bramble traps, which other players can use as a panic room. Wormwood can craft bramble husks, which other players can use. The brambleshade armor is wormwood exclusive though, but that's fine.

With the upcoming Winona changes though, unlike Wormwood, Winona can't craft a panic room usable by other players. Nor can she she assist other players with farms with her catapults. This makes her into a character that's no longer about helping out your friends, but is instead about farming bee queen super fast.

Why is Winona being pushed in this direction when Wormwood was still given abilities to assist other players without having to actively be there?

[cameron8800]

I think it’s at least partly because wormwood’s crafts are consumable and need to be constantly reapplied which means swapping back and forth from WW pointless. The catapults are one and done. I guess this could be solved by adding durability or even requiring Winona to craft ammunition. Then others could use them but Winona would always be necessary to have around. 

[randiao]

Perhaps it's because after having those things, many people still use this character.

[00petar00]

The bigger problem is that catapults are used for so many farms and setups, this really makes the game less fun for everyone that enjoys building these or they are now locked to playing Winona If they want to keep doing it.

Why not have a version of catapults that everyone can build that are weaker and aren't affected by Winona's skill tree?

[HowlVoid]

You want to compare berry bushes to catapults?

I'm not sure what you're asking for because the comparison makes little sense. 90% of you're asking about from wormwood already exist in the game in some form except for the husk (bramble traps have a weaker version, anenemies and hound traps).

So why can wormwood share... Berries and Winona can't share... Boss destroying catapults? 

They said they don't want Winona to be a pick-and-swap character. You can take all those things you mentioned from wormwood (which are hardly game defining) and he's still an interesting character due to his downside. You take Winona's crafts and what do you have? Not much.

 

I'm not defending whether this design philosophy is wrong or correct, but I believe that's the reason for this limitation.

A more accurate comparison would be why can Wicker share books with Maxwell. Although that carries its own limitations (only one character can do it). Now imagine if everyone could use Wickers books? Where would that leave her?

[cybers2001]

1 hour ago, randiao said:

Perhaps it's because after having those things, many people still use this character.

Is this a pro or anti catapult nerf comment? I just can’t tell anymore.

[cropo]

I'm all for Winona being able to craft "basic" catapaults, which do not incur any of her skill tree bonuses, but having them workable with other characters.

[Szczuku]

It's because Wormwood was one of the first skill trees and Klei had no idea what skills to give him so he has been given the plant-crafting mechanic, which should've been added as a post-rift crafting station or smth that would be available to everyone, not character-locked

[goblinball]

I said something similar in another thread (

) but I’ll explain it here as well

other people can still directly benefit from winona’s perks, she just needs to be there in the fight.

think of it like Wolfgang’s increased damage; it doesn’t directly benefit me since I don’t get the increased damage, only he does; BUT, his increased damage will allow us to kill the boss faster and more easily, ultimately helping me in the long run.

Catapult-reliant farms will require her to be present yes, but I don’t really think that’s an issue. It’s akin to those Wendy bee queen boat farms, and I don’t think anyone has a problem with those being wendy-exclusive. Especially when abigail can help the team in so many other ways.

[cropo]

Feels pointlessly contrived to me. Even Singleplayer Don't Starve backpedaled on making character-exclusive items despawn when you switch characters. If I can use Willows lighter in a weaker state, use Wigfrids hats, use Warlys cooking, etc. Why shouldn't I be able to push a button on machines to get it to sling rocks?  I'm not asking for increased performance from her skill tree, I definitely agree with her needing to be there to get the super-turrets but the baseline turrets should still exist as a separate craft to utilize for anyone.

[Blue Tangerine]

1 hour ago, goblinball said:

I said something similar in another thread (

) but I’ll explain it here as well

other people can still directly benefit from winona’s perks, she just needs to be there in the fight.

think of it like Wolfgang’s increased damage; it doesn’t directly benefit me since I don’t get the increased damage, only he does; BUT, his increased damage will allow us to kill the boss faster and more easily, ultimately helping me in the long run.

Catapult-reliant farms will require her to be present yes, but I don’t really think that’s an issue. It’s akin to those Wendy bee queen boat farms, and I don’t think anyone has a problem with those being wendy-exclusive. Especially when abigail can help the team in so many other ways.

The situation you describe requires multiple players to play on the same server, however this is not the case with Wormwood's Bramble Husk, in solo play I can switch to Wormwood, make Bramble Husk, and then switch to another character, and the other characters will still be able to use the husk. This is different from Winona's situation, when I play solo, I can't use the catapult if the character isn't Winona, I wish there could be 2 types of catapults in the game, one that is available to everyone, and one that is better, but can only be used by Winona, like the Bramble Husk and the Brambleshade Armor. Like an upgrade. 

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The bigger problem is that catapults are used for so many farms and setups, this really makes the game less fun for everyone that enjoys building these or they are now locked to playing Winona If they want to keep doing it.

Why not have a version of catapults that everyone can build that are weaker and aren't affected by Winona's skill tree?

You mean like having to fight crab king each time you want a catapult? (one of his minion crab towers)

I think people would still complain that they can’t just build them as Nona and switch to someone else.

[Masked Koopa]

3 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Now imagine if everyone could use Wickers books? Where would that leave her?

In the same position as before, truth be told. Wicker is sorely lacking in books that have day-to-day applicability, with most of them being really only suited to mass farming or the very early game. And it's not exactly a huge victory for a character if I swap to them for two minutes to hold down M1 or M2 and then swap back to an actual character. If Wicker had more books akin to the bee or spider book + a less intensively long casting animation and sanity cost for more of her books you could almost certainly make her a useful character.

Ima say right now - swapping to use Wilson's transmutes to craft minerals isn't some huge victory for Wilson as a character just because Wilson is the one crafting them.

[randiao]

2 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

Is this a pro or anti catapult nerf comment? I just can’t tell anymore.

I hope other characters can activate the catapult.

Add my thoughts: When Winona has exclusive skills, the designer is worried that Winona will still be a temporary exchange character, so he took away all the permissions of the catapult. However, I think when Winona has skills, she will no longer be a temporary exchange character!

[Anomen77]

3 hours ago, cropo said:

Feels pointlessly contrived to me. Even Singleplayer Don't Starve backpedaled on making character-exclusive items despawn when you switch characters. If I can use Willows lighter in a weaker state, use Wigfrids hats, use Warlys cooking, etc. Why shouldn't I be able to push a button on machines to get it to sling rocks?  I'm not asking for increased performance from her skill tree, I definitely agree with her needing to be there to get the super-turrets but the baseline turrets should still exist as a separate craft to utilize for anyone.

Because when used by others Willow's lighter is a shitty torch and Wigfrid's helmets are just higher durability football helmets. Warly is a chef so his purpose is to cook food for others. It's true that this can also potentially dump him into the swap character group, but at least the foods are consumable, need bundling wraps to store and will still eventually run out.

The catapult on the other hand are a game changing feature that should be unique to PLAYING AS Winona. It's her thing, like Wendy's Abigail, Woodie's Moose, Maxwell's shadows or Wurts merms that will attack other players when Wurt isn't present to craft glasses for others. You should not be able to steal the main kit of any character and apply it to a different one without the former one not being present in the server.

This is not about consistency or game design is it? The problem is that you have all gotten used to them, find them very convenient and don't want them taken away. It would've had the same reaction if any of the perks mentioned above had not been tied to their characters from the start, but it's not how the game is meant to be.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Blue Tangerine said:

The situation you describe requires multiple players to play on the same server, however this is not the case with Wormwood's Bramble Husk, in solo play I can switch to Wormwood, make Bramble Husk, and then switch to another character, and the other characters will still be able to use the husk. This is different from Winona's situation, when I play solo, I can't use the catapult if the character isn't Winona, I wish there could be 2 types of catapults in the game, one that is available to everyone, and one that is better, but can only be used by Winona, like the Bramble Husk and the Brambleshade Armor. Like an upgrade. 

I mean even that isn't quite the same those armors are going to break eventually so you still need Wormwood to make use of them

[Blue Tangerine]

46 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean even that isn't quite the same those armors are going to break eventually so you still need Wormwood to make use of them

No, your analogy is inappropriate, Wormwood can make dozens of husks at once for other characters to use for pretty long periods of time, while all of Winona's catapults stop working after 30 seconds of her absence. If I build catapults with a generator as Winnona, then switch to Wormwood, and half an hour later the hounds start attacking, will the catapults be able to protect me at that time?

55 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean even that isn't quite the same those armors are going to break eventually so you still need Wormwood to make use of them

Let's assume a multiplayer scenario: a Winona player has built several catapults next to the base to deal with hounds attack. Unfortunately, at a certain moment, the hounds are about to attack, Winona is mining rocks far away from the base, while the rest of her teammates are resting at the base, and their health are low , so will the catapults be able to protect them from the hounds at this point?

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Blue Tangerine said:

No, your analogy is inappropriate, Wormwood can make dozens of husks at once for other characters to use for pretty long periods of time, while all of Winona's catapults stop working after 30 seconds of her absence. If I build catapults with a generator as Winnona, then switch to Wormwood, and half an hour later the hounds start attacking, will the catapults be able to protect me at that time?

Let's assume a multiplayer scenario: a Winona player has built several catapults next to the base to deal with hounds attack. Unfortunately, at a certain moment, the hounds are about to attack, Winona is mining rocks far away from the base, while the rest of her teammates are resting at the base, and their health are low , so will the catapults be able to protect them from the hounds at this point?

Then a more accurate comparison would be if the change was reverted however only Winona could refuel her generators and the upgrades to the generators wouldn't apply.

12 minutes ago, Blue Tangerine said:

No, your analogy is inappropriate, Wormwood can make dozens of husks at once for other characters to use for pretty long periods of time, while all of Winona's catapults stop working after 30 seconds of her absence. If I build catapults with a generator as Winnona, then switch to Wormwood, and half an hour later the hounds start attacking, will the catapults be able to protect me at that time?

Yours is also inappropriate as your comparing consumable armor to a structure.

[Blue Tangerine]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Then a more accurate comparison would be if the change was reverted however only Winona could refuel her generators and the upgrades to the generators wouldn't apply.

Yours is also inappropriate as your comparing consumable armor to a structure.

I think a good skill tree update should build on a character's strengths and eliminate his or her weaknesses, for example, Wormwood was originally good at dealing with a group of enemies with low health, his skill tree gave him the more powerful Brambleshade Armor, and he was flawed at regaining health, the skill tree made it possible for him to photosynthesize to regenerate. Winona's catapults are excellent, it's her strength, why not keep the original one that can be used by everyone and give her a new, better one that only she can use?

13 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Then a more accurate comparison would be if the change was reverted however only Winona could refuel her generators and the upgrades to the generators wouldn't apply.

Yours is also inappropriate as your comparing consumable armor to a structure.

No, that still wasn't right, if the catapults worked regardless of Winona's presence , but she was the only one who could fuel the generator, that would be the same situation as Wormwood and his Bramble Husk.

[Shining Galaxy]

Take a look at our big scientist Wilson with a beard, who has what can be considered the most useless skill tree in the game, and is still using his only ability to create nitre to power Winona's Generator, while Winona's Catapult cannot even protect Wilson from a terrible Hound attack.

[Cassielu]

Isn't?

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Blue Tangerine said:

Winona's catapults are excellent, it's her strength, why not keep the original one that can be used by everyone and give her a new, better one that only she can use?

I would say the main issue is that this update to her hasn't really done much to divorce Winona from the concept of catapults being her main identity. Klei instead doubled down on this aspect by making most of her skills specifically tied to her catapults. I don't think it's a weird opinion to have that the perk that defines a character so heavily be restricted to that character.

[00petar00]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

You mean like having to fight crab king each time you want a catapult? (one of his minion crab towers)

I think people would still complain that they can’t just build them as Nona and switch to someone else.

There's a need for a tower/catapult that isn't time gated, houndius shootius is terrible to gather in large quantities because I have to kill FW and AG every time for 1.

We need more structures like these anyway so I wouldn't mind If we get crab king's tower for each kill but at the same time we should get a structure that everyone can craft with alchemy engine like catapult without upgrades from Winona's skill tree.

[Mysterious box]

19 minutes ago, Blue Tangerine said:

I think a good skill tree update should build on a character's strengths and eliminate his or her weaknesses, for example, Wormwood was originally good at dealing with a group of enemies with low health, his skill tree gave him the more powerful Brambleshade Armor, and he was flawed at regaining health, the skill tree made it possible for him to photosynthesize to regenerate.

On a side note I don't think a good skill tree update should eliminate character weaknesses it's actively harmful to character variety. Building on character strengths is a good thing but I also feel skill trees should offer variety and new playstyles improving the day to day experience of the survivor.

[Cruvimaster]

7 hours ago, paulcdejean said:

Wormwood can craft berry bushes, monkey tails, saplings and lureplant bulbs, and living logs, which other players can use. Wormwood can craft bramble traps, which other players can use as a panic room. Wormwood can craft bramble husks, which other players can use. The brambleshade armor is wormwood exclusive though, but that's fine.

Winona wasn't good at anything. She was a Wilson 2.0. Uninteresting character for almost all players.

So Klei reworked it and brought the catapults, but made the mistake of using any character. Winona continued to be a disinteresting character. She was a character to change on the portal, make the catapults, change again on the portal and never use again. Disposable character that could easily be removed from the game.

Winona never went beyond a mere level 3 science machine to the other characters.

I see what bothers most players here is the fact that she can't combine Wickerbottom's broken powers with Winona's catapults. If Winona could read Wickerbottom's books they wouldn't complain, because what they want is the product of the fusion of Winona + Wicker into a single character.

Wormwood is one of the most powerful characters in the game today and has never been about creating plants. He is excellent for crops and very good for combat. It has the unique effect of putting mobs to sleep just by eating one type of mushroom.

The best things about Wormwood are unique to him. Winona's best thing is the catapult.