Why skill trees aren't reworks 2.0

[goblinball]

48 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Because that's how video game development works???

You give incentives to keep people playing in the hopes it makes the experience more enjoyable.

Which seems to be working given the player base only keeps growing.

When you try to appeal to everybody, you end up appealing to nobody.

I’d rather play a game that appeals to a specific, intended audience than a game that “has a little something for everyone”. You can look at any recent Ubisoft game to see why that’s a bad idea.

I think skill trees are fine but what you’ve described is not “how video game development works” (like “video game development” is anything more than just a buzzword, lol).

 

Edited March 5 by goblinball

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, BezKa said:

Isn't the game being fun the incentive?...

Just before this you asked me "they keep dying (not having fun) why would they keep playing the game"

Well uh, they obviously felt the game needed a stronger incentive. I hope you aren't moving the goal post just to refute that this isn't for newer players at all cost. They fact they thought about killing other birds with the same stone, power gap, end game, etc is the cherry on top for me. 

Despite what I've been accused of already, I really enjoy skill trees. Nobody more than me has complained about the power gap between wormwood and other characters. I'm not defending this mechanic without my personal reasons on top of my speculation on my Klei added them.

At some point we have to move on that skill trees are here to stay.

1 hour ago, BezKa said:

As it has before skill trees so why now

Because that's the feedback they got? Again, they get a lot more feedback outside the forum apparently (I didn't know this before either).

34 minutes ago, goblinball said:

When you try to appeal to everybody, you end up appealing to nobody.

A lot of people enjoy them, there are far more fans outside the forum. How people keep missing this key aspect I have no clue.

34 minutes ago, goblinball said:

I’d rather play a game that appeals to a specific, intended audience than a game that “has a little something for everyone”. You can look at any recent Ubisoft game to see why that’s a bad idea.

Well, they're doing a great job. Lots of people enjoy skill trees, so...

34 minutes ago, goblinball said:

I think skill trees are fine but what you’ve described is not “how video game development works” (like “video game development” is anything more than just a buzzword, lol).

 

Video game development isn't about retaining your audience? Lol what. 

How you can see anything in such a broad statement that boils down to "make the game good", well... 

Fyi, the word "buzzword" is a buzzword to just try and discredit that I can use a term. How do I talk about game development without mentioning it. All it's referring to is "intention". Klei has been very clear what their intention is, this isn't something I'm pulling out of a hat.

Edited March 5 by HowlVoid

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

Lol, literally was stated by JoeW they wanted more progression after death.

Yeah, no. "Tips", isn't tangible proof of progression. You missed the whole point.

Almost like her pyromancy expanding is progression 

And willow is one of the characters that was very bland and needed help. I did mention that 

It obviously does since everyone groans and moans "reworks 2.0 electric bogaloo".

That's your opinion, I think it makes them quite fun and encouraging to play. 

It obviously does given feedback Klei has gotten outside the forum.

Here's a reality check: there are more players playing this game outside the forum than in it.

You missed the point entirely, this is progression after Death.

What proof of progression do you have if you never get past winter. Maybe, just maybe, skill trees add a little push to keep playing past that point.

 

44 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

 

Because that's how video game development works???

You give incentives to keep people playing in the hopes it makes the experience more enjoyable.

Which seems to be working given the player base only keeps growing.

Don't Starve doesn't NEED progression. That's the entire problem. Sure, I'll admit that I'm probably biased on that front. But DST has been wildly successful despite not having any of that for 8 years now. So why does the game suddenly need it now. Actually; hell. You reference DST's XP system to justify skill trees. But that was basically just a ticker to keep players from getting overwhelmed by character choice. If you're that desperate for a skinner box, Klei should just add a "total days survived" counter that gives you a random skin drop after an exponentially rising amount of days lived.

 

At the end of the day. There just isn't room for skill trees. The vast majority of DST's characters are already completely fleshed out mechanically. Sure, there are a couple of underbaked lads that benefit like Woodie or Willow. But the vast majority of characters are going to have skill trees that range from generally underwhelming to absolutely dogwater. Klei themselves have even admitted this, stating that Wolfgang's skill tree is so bland because he already has a lot of little perks that would have otherwise made sense as skill tree perks ala better sailing. Maybe they could have worked if we got skill trees INSTEAD of character refreshes. But as it stands, skill trees are just a half-baked mechanic shoved into the game to make a line go up and make Klei's share holders happy.

 

"But they're good for new players" No. If new players need skill trees to enjoy the game, they can go play something else. I know that sounds harsh... mostly because it is. But the notion that "Media needs to appeal to the broadest market possible" has been a force of absolute destruction in the industry that has made common media so, so much less interesting. A game that tries to appeal to everyone is a game that appeals to no one. Don't Starve as a franchise has done amazingly by slipping into a niche market. It doesn't and has never needed to try and sculpt itself into something that it isn't to try and appeal to a market that otherwise wouldn't even give it a second glance.

[Swiyss]

10 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Survivor notes

Isn't the scrapbook literally that?

[Szczuku]

3 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Isn't the scrapbook literally that?

No, it's a badly ported wiki

[HowlVoid]

4 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

"But they're good for new players" No. If new players need skill trees to enjoy the game, they can go play something else. 

At the end of the day, talking to all of you is truly a waste of time, this proves it.

Every one one of you is simply gatekeeping.

That's all it's been from the beginning.

Edited March 6 by HowlVoid

[Theukon-dos]

4 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

At the end of the day, talking to all of you is truly a waste of time, this proves it.

Everyone one of you is simply gatekeeping.

That's all it's been from the beginning.

Again. Not every game should be for every player. I'm not going into the Magnum Opus discord demanding they make the puzzles less puzzling becuase I don't have the attention span to solve them.

 

And sure. Maybe I am gatekeeping by the strictest definition. But only because Klei has actively made the game worse in order to appeal to those new players. Call it a bitter breakup. But the game I fell in love with has been altered and warped beyond recognition. And I feel no shame in making that clear.

[Evelo]

35 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Everyone one of you is simply gatekeeping.

That's all it's been from the beginning.

Even me?

[PunkShark]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

Again. Not every game should be for every player. I'm not going into the Magnum Opus discord demanding they make the puzzles less puzzling becuase I don't have the attention span to solve them.

 

And sure. Maybe I am gatekeeping by the strictest definition. But only because Klei has actively made the game worse in order to appeal to those new players. Call it a bitter breakup. But the game I fell in love with has been altered and warped beyond recognition. And I feel no shame in making that clear.

Oh please, don't act like the game is no longer difficult just because they added skill trees and made the game more accessible for a broader audience.
Open up your noggin and realise there are others who should be able to play the game instead of living in the clouds of the game being "hard uncompromising difficulty" that it still is and trying to gatekeep it for people who lost their sense of rough survival half a decade ago. You just fell out of it because you played it too much. Many people still die a lot in this game, just because veterans don't doesn't mean DST has lost its touch. Veterans have been amazing at this game for years and it won't change anything by making characters more interesting for everyone involved & making it easier for beginners to get in touch with the game instead of being punished.

I've been with these games since the dawn, around 2012 and i have never felt like Klei went out of their way to make the game "easier". skill trees is optional, celestial portal is optional. None of the new content is required to be beaten because the game has always been about accessibility of your own creativity and limits. You could always play however you want. Even in original DS. Nothing has changed. We've just grown older. And maybe it isn't klei's fault you lost touch with the game a long time ago. Still, doesn't make it any better to try and gatekeep it for something you don't even care about at the end of the day because it won't affect you in the slightest.

Skill trees aren't just about buffs, but about QoL abilities for existing characters, more fun mechanics for character who were lackluster, and gives them a 2nd chance of who required it. And many, many of the characters still do. Nearly everyone in the roster could still use one of these things. Even Wolfgang, who had much less of an interesting skill tree had great qol changes, good reasons to use the mighty gym since for most it was deemed unnecessary, different magical dumbbells, and workout points which just makes him much nicer to play as at the end of the day. And this can be said for all of the skill trees.

Edited March 5 by PunkShark

[Siren11]

I’m a relatively new player, and I don’t think a lot of veteran players understand how difficult it is to get into DST now. In a game where difficulty is mostly based on lack of knowledge (and maybe practice), there’s just so much you don’t know when you’re starting out bc there’s so much in the game. It’s like information overload. And I didn’t get to learn things update by update like a lot of you.

I don’t want a tutorial and I definitely don’t want to be told how to do things, but having a way to check info? Things like the scrapbook and cookbook are very nice additions for me. Being told by the game to equip a torch after I’ve already died to darkness (as the example given) just feels condescending.

I have no real opinion on skill trees (they’re fun enough to mess around with, but none of the characters I really play have them yet). My friends are having more fun with the game though, and ultimately that matters more to me than how much I like a mostly optional mechanic. I do think HowlVoid has a good point about skill trees as progression, based on what I’ve seen in my own experience and outside the forums.

DST is my favorite game and one of my biggest special interests. I have a lot of respect of the people who have been here longer than me, and I can understand why you’re upset that the game is changing. I’m not even happy with all the changes, but the beauty of DST to me is that it’s so player-driven. For the most part, I don’t have to do anything I don’t want.

I joined the forums bc I wanted to talk to other players who are as passionate as I am. But I’m too scared to do that bc everything feels so unwelcoming to newer players. I know some of it is my own anxieties and insecurities, but I think it’s hard to deny that there’s some negativity that isn’t just a critique of the game (and new players aren’t even the only targets).

[goatt]

I think you just redefined the word "rework" a very specific way then say what Klei did was different. But if you simply look at the term "character rework" and look at the character mechanics change, then it is a rework.

You can say this iteration of character rework is good, but it's still character rework. I just can't get over the fact that you have to put skill tree in a different category in order to say it's good, as if the term "character rework" is a monster.

It looked like a character rework, it felt like a character rework, and it's a reworked character in the end.

They are very much completed by skill trees, because the pre-re-work characters all lack planar damage, which makes them all incomplete in the new era that Klei brings to bring.

 

You can like a character rework, I think that's ok. But you don't need to call it not a character rework. Because it is.

Character rework 1.0 was to refresh characters after many DST exlusive content.

Character rework 2.0 was to refresh characters after the post-cc-fw content.

Same method, same goal, same thing.

[Maxil20]

7 minutes ago, Siren11 said:

I joined the forums bc I wanted to talk to other players who are as passionate as I am. But I’m too scared to do that bc everything feels so unwelcoming to newer players. I know some of it is my own anxieties and insecurities, but I think it’s hard to deny that there’s some negativity that isn’t just a critique of the game (and new players aren’t even the only targets).

This point in particular strikes out to me because I absolutely agree with it. The forums are not the most welcoming community out there that you’ll find in DST. A vast majority of people are outright turned away because of the rampant negativity surrounding this place (see: why 95% of the megabaser community talks in communities around content creators who megabase then dare to chat on these forums).

It’s no surprise an atmosphere like this turns people away. The main reason I chat here is because I want to make my thoughts apparent here, even if I know a good chunk of people won’t agree with them. It can get quite draining.

[Theukon-dos]

18 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

Oh please, don't act like the game is no longer difficult just because they added skill trees and made the game more accessible for a broader audience.
Open up your noggin and realise there are others who should be able to play the game instead of living in the clouds of the game being "hard uncompromising difficulty" that it still is and trying to gatekeep it for people who lost their sense of rough survival half a decade ago. You just fell out of it because you played it too much. Many people still die a lot in this game, just because veterans don't doesn't mean DST has lost its touch. Veterans have been amazing at this game for years and it won't change anything by making characters more interesting for everyone involved & making it easier for beginners to get in touch with the game instead of being punished.

I recognize that the game is still very difficult to get into. But that doesn't change the fact that Klei has very obviously been changing the game's direction too appeal to more casual players. And that's just it. I don't want casual. I WANT "Hard uncompromising difficulty". I want "Rough Survival". Those are the things that made me buy into this franchise in the first place. And those things are fundamentally incompatible with the game that Klei's trying to turn the game into.

Now, let me make it 100% clear. I have absolutely 0 ill will towards the players who have bought into the game because of Klei's casulalization. And recognize that trying to course-correct now would only give them the same frustration that players like me feel now. Arguably even more so sense making the game harder would push them out a lot a lot more aggressively than players my ilk ever where. 

But ultimately, if the roles were reversed, and Don't Starve was always a casual game, then I wouldn't be here. I would be looking for a survival game that fits my needs. My issue isn't that DST doesn't fill those, it's that it used to fill my needs, but doesn't anymore.

18 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

I've been with these games since the dawn, around 2012 and i have never felt like Klei went out of their way to make the game "easier". skill trees is optional, celestial portal is optional. None of the new content is required to be beaten because the game has always been about accessibility of your own creativity and limits. You could always play however you want. Even in original DS. Nothing has changed. We've just grown older. And maybe it isn't klei's fault you lost touch with the game a long time ago. Still, doesn't make it any better to try and gatekeep it for something you don't even care about at the end of the day because it won't affect you in the slightlest.

It's not just skill trees though. Skill trees are just a pebble on the mountain of changes that Klei's made over the years. 

Character refreshes started reasonably, but quickly got out of hand. Food; already a non-issue for moderately experienced players; has only gotten easier to obtain and more effective too boot. The game has noticeably shifted from survival-based challenges to combat-based challenges to the point that Klei has outright stated that they want to make EVERYONE a combat character. Character swapping like you said. Ect. Ect. How's the phrase go again? A frog in a pot won't notice if the water starts boiling? Klei's been making changes like these for years now, whether you noticed or not. Hell, I didn't even mention the scrap book. Because that's a feature I actually DO like. Why? Because it helps new players, but doesn't affect experienced players in the slightest, sense they'll likely know most of the things the scrapbook says anyways.

 

Also, if I "didn't care" like you said. Then I wouldn't be here in the first place. 

18 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

Skill trees aren't just about buffs, but about QoL abilities for existing characters, more fun mechanics for character who were lackluster, and gives them a 2nd chance of who required it. And many, many of the characters still do. Nearly everyone in the roster could still use one of these things. Even Wolfgang, who had much less of an interesting skill tree had great qol changes, good reasons to use the mighty gym since for most it was deemed unnecessary, different magical dumbbells, and workout points which just makes him much nicer to play as at the end of the day. And this can be said for all of the skill trees.

If character "needs" something. Then that feature shouldn't be locked behind a skill tree. Planar perks are basically required once you reach that point in the game, which ruins the point of player choice. The gym perks are completely useless as they don't actually fix any of the issues the gym had; I have seen exactly 2 people defend push the limits unironically. And you're one of them. 2 out of the 3 magical dumbells are useless. And his skill tree doesn't actually have any QoL perks. The closest would be chore workout or leg day. But those aren't QoL perks. Those are just very minor buffs. 

 

 

Bleugh. I need to step away from this conversation before I say something I regret. I am getting way too heated from all this. 

[finn from human]

57 minutes ago, Siren11 said:

I joined the forums bc I wanted to talk to other players who are as passionate as I am. But I’m too scared to do that bc everything feels so unwelcoming to newer players. I know some of it is my own anxieties and insecurities, but I think it’s hard to deny that there’s some negativity that isn’t just a critique of the game (and new players aren’t even the only targets).

46 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

The forums are not the most welcoming community out there that you’ll find in DST. A vast majority of people are outright turned away because of the rampant negativity surrounding this place (see: why 95% of the megabaser community talks in communities around content creators who megabase then dare to chat on these forums).

My past few years on this forum have been almost fully negative and it's really unfortunate. Criticism is a very healthy thing for a game and its community, but there's no denying that these forums have cultivated an environment where people leap to be as harsh as possible towards every new update, actively ask for updates to be entirely reverted rather than tweaked, and bite and tear through anyone who doesn't follow suit. It sucks a lot and absolutely turns away old players and new players alike. This has only gotten worse since the off topic forum was deleted and now there's absolutely no chance to have low stakes lighthearted humanizing interactions with fellow forum users, it's only full-on serious mode "why DST sucks now and has since 2019 but I'm still playing daily though" essays with no chance to find a common ground or play goofy forum games together or etc. I sincerely wish Klei would do anything except the bare minimum moderation and try to ease this tension, as it's only going to get worse and more and more people distance themselves.

[Siren11]

15 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Klei has very obviously been changing the game's direction too appeal to more casual players.

I got here after a lot of the changes, but I did play singeplayer first. I can’t deny that there are changes that made DST more casual. But it’s still an incredibly punishing game… when you don’t have all the knowledge of how to beat it at your disposal. I don’t think very many people are getting into DST bc it’s easy and casual. We like challenges too!

15 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

The game has noticeably shifted from survival-based challenges to combat-based challenges

I think this might actually be it, more than “uncompromising” veteran vs. casual newbie. I like survival, but I love combat-based challenges. And when I’m in the mood for a more survival-focused experience, I usually just go back to singleplayer.

I’m sorry if I said anything that upset you (I know you didn’t quote me, but I think maybe some of your response was about mine). I really do empathize with people who’ve been here awhile and feel like this, but it sucks so much to see something you love change into something that doesn’t suit you anymore. And people don’t always think about the weight of their words, especially over the internet. No shame recognizing that you need to step away. <3

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

If character "needs" something. Then that feature shouldn't be locked behind a skill tree. Planar perks are basically required once you reach that point in the game, which ruins the point of player choice.

Totally agree

[PunkShark]

7 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I recognize that the game is still very difficult to get into. But that doesn't change the fact that Klei has very obviously been changing the game's direction too appeal to more casual players. And that's just it. I don't want casual. I WANT "Hard uncompromising difficulty". I want "Rough Survival". Those are the things that made me buy into this franchise in the first place. And those things are fundamentally incompatible with the game that Klei's trying to turn the game into.

Now, let me make it 100% clear. I have absolutely 0 ill will towards the players who have bought into the game because of Klei's casulalization. And recognize that trying to course-correct now would only give them the same frustration that players like me feel now. Arguably even more so sense making the game harder would push them out a lot a lot more aggressively than players my ilk ever where. 

But ultimately, if the roles were reversed, and Don't Starve was always a casual game, then I wouldn't be here. I would be looking for a survival game that fits my needs. My issue isn't that DST doesn't fill those, it's that it used to fill my needs, but doesn't anymore.

What made the game hard in the first place was the lack of knowledge, the non hand holding that we lived on crumbs for.
The game hasn't changed, it is still difficult for the ones who are new to the game as we were once. Skill trees won't change a new players skill because they've already got their hands full learning the whole game and all of its intricate mechanics. It is still not a casual game, but it doesn't hurt to widen its audience and make it more welcoming.

we've gone so up high in skill and knowledge that the game will never be difficult as it were back in the early days. And nothing is going to change that. Klei could add 5 new weather mechanics tomorrow and we'd already have beaten it in the first week. Because we're so efficient in learning the game now that it is just not a challenge while the beginners would struggle even harder than they already do. Even at klei's best efforts new survival mechanics is not going to cut it anymore. We've gone too far from that. So it's best to accept it. Our time of rough survival is over and there's nothing we can do to get that back. Just as you said. it doesn't fill your needs anymore but because you've played it too much, you've gotten too good at it. Don't you see? Beginners learn the game the exact way we started when they started up this game for the first time. And eventually this will happen to them as well as it did to us.

Having the game be difficult, be made for us would just be an endless cycle of content we'd get used to quickly and dissatisfaction. Endlessly running around in a hamster wheel. You're chasing a childhood wonder you're never getting back.
 

31 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Also, if I "didn't care" like you said. Then I wouldn't be here in the first place.

I could've worded this part better i apologize.
 

34 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Character refreshes started reasonably, but quickly got out of hand. Food; already a non-issue for moderately experienced players; has only gotten easier to obtain and more effective too boot. The game has noticeably shifted from survival-based challenges to combat-based challenges to the point that Klei has outright stated that they want to make EVERYONE a combat character. Character swapping like you said. Ect. Ect. How's the phrase go again? A frog in a pot won't notice if the water starts boiling? Klei's been making changes like these for years now, whether you noticed or not. Hell, I didn't even mention the scrap book. Because that's a feature I actually DO like. Why? Because it helps new players, but doesn't affect experienced players in the slightest, sense they'll likely know most of the things the scrapbook says anyways.

Food has always been a non-issue for someone who knows how to play the game and know it's food sources. This has been a non-issue even in DS. but it takes knowledge of how you get it. knowing crockpot foods, knowing your food sources, knowing how to farm and get good at it, researching your crops, looking out for your surroundings.
Have they added more food sources? absolutely, but you need to know where to find it first, no newbie will just find lunar island and get high amounts of stone bushes, or find moonquay and get a bunch of banana bushes RWYS was made for a multiplayer enviromnent so it felt worth researching for your team instead of the expensive rng farm plots but you still need to know how it works otherwise you're gonna get less than subpar results and the game never holds your hand with that. You got the gardeneer hat sure, you got the cookbook but it's just there to remind you of what you already do know and have learned. We didn't have that luxury, we had the wiki to go give us that information

Even if none of the new food sources existed we would know exactly how to still survive 100% of the time because it'd basically be DS.

 

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

If character "needs" something. Then that feature shouldn't be locked behind a skill tree. Planar perks are basically required once you reach that point in the game, which ruins the point of player choice. The gym perks are completely useless as they don't actually fix any of the issues the gym had; I have seen exactly 2 people defend push the limits unironically. And you're one of them. 2 out of the 3 magical dumbells are useless. And his skill tree doesn't actually have any QoL perks. The closest would be chore workout or leg day. But those aren't QoL perks. Those are just very minor buffs.

But why not? what's so bad about using points to upgrade your character throughout the game where you feel like you've gone out of the early game faster. To get to the nitty gritty with a character you enjoy. Look at Willow and Woodie. I actually see people now playing these characters because of the skill trees and they're now fun throughout the whole game because their skill tree makes them progessively better. Same can be said for Wormwood and he's got such a versatile skill tree of wherever you want to go. And it's not like you're bound to your choices. You can always pick again. But the skill tree balances it that you can't get everything.
Don't you think if let's say, the skill trees didn't exist, and it was all just buffs all around passively put onto them,even for someone like Willow, would be a little bit silly? The skill trees balances it out. Yeah planar perks are required but that's in the endgame, you've got the whole game to pick and choose until beyond that point, and most of the time it's only 1-2 points of usage to get something planar related. Plus they're locked within FW and CC the alignments. Hell you still got planar tools and weapons if you don't wanna go for the planar specific powers.

Regarding Wolfgang, i am sorry but there are people who do actually play this game that isn't just efficient and have fun with it. Wether of how you feel of his points, it makes him nicer to play. And i can tell you rn there are people out there who do use the gym outside of the forum and beyond discord communities as much as other "useless" defined features go.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Maybe they don't understand what's fun about it yet. Maybe it's just the thing to keep some people around long enough to learn how to deal with issues. Maybe since they're new players there's things in the skill trees that veterans dismiss as unnecessary or suboptimal that can actually resolve an issue in a way that keeps them playing long enough to work out other solutions.

Because they want to continue to grow and retention is important and feedback told them this would be a good way to facilitate those two things?

God, why do you people make such a big ****ing deal about this? If you hate them so much just don't use them or something. I cannot fathom why you are all still thrashing against them a year later. I have never seen a group of people so angry about stuff they don't even need to interact with and that wouldn't otherwise affect them in any way. Grow up.

From my experiece with this kinda approach what actually ends up happening is new players end up relying on these sorts of powerful skills as crutches and never actually learn to play beyond them which then leads to the devs leaning harder into powerful abilities that make the game more "accessible" and the cycle repeats until the way the game is played is changed completely to suit a wider audience. The game will definitely get more popular that way however so if that's all that matters I guess it's fine.

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

22 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Klei was presented with a dilemma, how to add progression to the game so new players can get tangible proof that they are making progress after each death.

Tangible progression really isn't something DST needs. It seems fairly obvious to me that DST is a game about progression through knowledge, experience, and experiences. Players can get proof that they are progressing whenever they interact with new biomes, mechanics, or bosses. The skill tree system as it is currently implemented is a poor way to add progression.

23 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

The characters are already complete, they aren't being "completed" with skill trees.

Except so many characters do/did feel incomplete. Willow's skill tree is now necessary for her to feel like a complete character, as her base perks are nothing-burgers. Without his skill tree, Woodie feels unbalanced and is just a chore to play endgame. Wolfgang almost completely lost his main perk in the endgame before his skill tree, and Wigfrid also needed planar damage/defense added with her tree. Only Wormwood really felt like a completed character before his skill tree.

Most of the characters left do feel complete (Winona and Walter specifically feel lackluster to play, however), so we'll have to see what their trees produce.

23 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

But because everyone on the forum is so used to the game, plays with all skill points enabled, this new state becomes the default.

Yeah, that's how that works. Once you unlock the skills, they're there forever, and now might as well be intrinsic to the characters. This wouldn't be the case if the skill trees had actual choice to them, but most have an obvious path meant to fix the character or a set of skills that completely outclass the other skills.

7 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

It obviously does given feedback Klei has gotten outside the forum.

Genuinely, what feedback? The forum is the main place for Klei to get feedback. Majority of steam's negative reviews are about the steep learning curve and/or necessary wiki-lurking to progress. The subreddit is usually about skill tree theorizing and new character ideas. I can't imagine Klei devs have the time to snoop around in discord servers and such, so where are they getting this feedback?

6 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Because that's how video game development works???

You give incentives to keep people playing in the hopes it makes the experience more enjoyable.

There are much better ways to do this. Many players quit DST because they quickly tire of the seemingly endless chores/monotony that comes from constantly dying and restarting. Some solutions to this include: more immersive environments that allow for more player engagement and mechanics to discover; a larger variety of map generation and biome generation to make new worlds feel different than previous; more ways to do the monotonous tasks, such as gathering twigs and grass; a (TOGGLABLE) suggested crafting system to help players learn how to craft armor and weapons, and thus feel more free to experiment with the world because they won't die from touching something.

[Faintly Macabre]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

From my experiece with this kinda approach what actually ends up happening is new players end up relying on these sorts of powerful skills as crutches and never actually learn to play beyond them which then leads to the devs leaning harder into powerful abilities that make the game more "accessible" and the cycle repeats until the way the game is played is changed completely to suit a wider audience.

People say this kind of thing a lot and I just don't believe you've ever taken any meaningful sampling of players to determine if this is or isn't what happens and just go by what you see here and there. What powerful crutch skills are you even talking about? The most powerful skills I can think of are Woodie's and Willow's, maybe Wigfrid's shield? And they don't truly make the game any easier. They just give those characters more interesting and thematic tools.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

People say this kind of thing a lot and I just don't believe you've ever taken any meaningful sampling of players to determine if this is or isn't what happens and just go by what you see here and there. What powerful crutch skills are you even talking about? The most powerful skills I can think of are Woodie's and Willow's, maybe Wigfrid's shield? And they don't truly make the game any easier. They just give those characters more interesting and thematic tools.

I didn't sample the players I'm going off of experience with other games and how they've evolved over time using the same patterns that dst is currently following.

10 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

And they don't truly make the game any easier. They just give those characters more interesting and thematic tools.

There are various skills added in refreshes and skill trees that make the game easier like Wx's light/temp circuits, Willow's fireball, and Woodie's Woodworking crafts just to name afew there are plenty of examples. I won't deny it makes characters more interesting but at the same time more often than not it encourages people to rely on those powers and encourage the devs to make more powers like it. For example now that we have multiple caster characters with selectable spells it wouldn't be uncommon in the future if every character eventually got castable spells/skills loosely related to their styles. Now don't get me wrong I get that sounds silly but it is how these sorts of things always seem to start.

[Faintly Macabre]

13 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I didn't sample the players I'm going off of experience with other games and how they've evolved over time using the same patterns that dst is currently following.

I don't agree with your assessment of how this game is evolving, so without some concrete examples of other games I don't trust that what you think is the cause of those games' directions of development is the actual cause. And I'm not saying that to be a jerk; I'm just saying that we often think we know the reasons why this or that person did the thing, and sometimes we just get it wrong.

25 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

There are various skills added in refreshes and skill trees that make the game easier like Wx's light/temp circuits, Willow's fireball, and Woodie's Woodworking crafts just to name afew there are plenty of examples. I won't deny it makes characters more interesting but at the same time more often than not it encourages people to rely on those powers and encourage the devs to make more powers like it.

WX's circuits are not a very good example because many of them only do what overload previously did but better, and make you choose a smaller overall number of perks while giving you more possibilities. I don't feel like Willow's fire spells make the game any easier either; they give her some fun tools she can use to alter her strategies some, but those options are not really strictly superior ways of doing the things they do. And woodworking for Woodie doesn't look like a crutch to me. Boards are a little cheaper, the helmet's pretty meh, and the cane just... lets you get around a little faster.

[HowlVoid]

I'm just going to leave this here said by joeW because his words are needed once again.

And I hope y'all will reflect on these words and have

PATIENCE.

Depending on which way the wind is blowing at any given time the belief is that we either pay attention to the community too much, or not enough. But the reality is that we internally sort things out and use community feedback to determine if we're achieving what we are looking for. 

Please calm down some of the language here. Let people say what they want to say.

Regardless of what the current belief is - we aren't doing things just because somebody suggested it.

I have had to make this same statement either in defense of us not listening enough, or listening too much way too many times. 

In terms of the recent discussions of difficulty in Don't Starve Together, it's worth telling you that we know this is something many people are concerned with right now. We have a roadmap to get through and that's what we're going to do. We'll tack on some things while we see the opportunity, but we ARE discussing these things and we understand and do not disagree with your concerns. How they are addressed however is still quite up in the air. To be perfectly clear, we are aware this has been a complaint for a very long time from some people. I am not suggesting that we care more or less than we ever have; however, I can tell you that we are aware that more people are feeling this way and have been and will continue discussing how this feedback fits in to our plans both ongoing and in the future.

That being said, the nitpicky arguments and snipping back and forth with each other is getting old and I am going to start being more harsh with the warnings if it doesn't settle down. Most of you should know better by now. Don't make it personal, keep it on topic and polite. 

Thanks. 

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

I'm just going to leave this here said by joeW because his words are needed once again.

Where is this originally from again?

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

WX's circuits are not a very good example because many of them only do what overload previously did but better, and make you choose a smaller overall number of perks while giving you more possibilities.

The difference is far bigger than people give it credit for as circuits are passive requiring zero maintence while overload generally required specific team loadouts you get less perks but they're completely under your control passively eliminating major game mechanics. 

 

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

I don't feel like Willow's fire spells make the game any easier either; they give her some fun tools she can use to alter her strategies some, but those options are not really strictly superior ways of doing the things they do.

You must realize some people rush the ruins specifically just for the star caller staff and her version of it is just plain superior while also completely countering her downside in every possible way.

 

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

And woodworking for Woodie doesn't look like a crutch to me. Boards are a little cheaper, the helmet's pretty meh, and the cane just... lets you get around a little faster.

Movement speed is one of the strongest upgrades in dst making a major impact inside and outside of combat even if it's not quite as good as the walking cane your underselling it by a long short by just saying it makes you a little faster. As for the helmet while it's nothing amazing head armor tends to be more valuable than body armor and having access to such a cheap option isn't anything to scoff at considering the sheer amount of resources saved in the process.

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

I don't agree with your assessment of how this game is evolving, so without some concrete examples of other games I don't trust that what you think is the cause of those games' directions of development is the actual cause. And I'm not saying that to be a jerk; I'm just saying that we often think we know the reasons why this or that person did the thing, and sometimes we just get it wrong.

I mean there's clear signs of it if you look at the beginning of the character refreshes compared to the end of it how powerful character perks have gotten has seen a massive shift with things considered ridiculous some years back being considered standard. We've got multiple characters with aoe attacks, followers with mass aoe healing, a character with a litteral flame thrower attack, the ability to control the moon cycle and weather. It's no secret that characters have gone through massive powercreep and with skills trees going as they are it's clear we haven't seen the end of that powercreep much like other games have handled it in the past and it'd be naive to think that after this wave of skill trees are done they'll stop adding powercreep to characters the rework cycle is a common thing.