Why skill trees aren't reworks 2.0

[HowlVoid]

I'm surprised after all this time this explanation is somehow still needed, but here we are. 

Klei was presented with a dilemma, how to add progression to the game so new players can get tangible proof that they are making progress after each death.

After all, there is a progression system in solo don't starve in the form of character unlocks. However in DST all characters are unlocked by default.

It doesn't take long to realize the best way to go about it is to attach progression to the characters themselves. Taking items between worlds would be too disruptive online, as well as changing the world in some way that other players may not be prepared for. 

A rework is meant to add a baseline to a character. What that character will be like before they get access to things that may expedite the early game (something that can be annoying to do over and over to some, to most even). Or what the characters may need before hitting a wall (endgame). This is something I'm reminded of every time I need to pick up a new character that doesn't have their skill points yet. (But PC people unlock all their points by progressing time instantly with the console .)

Anyways, this is the most intuitive approach if you simply consider that it is the path that makes the most sense. Reworks and skill trees may intertwine gameplay wise but when it comes down to it they do have different goals in mind. The characters are already complete, they aren't being "completed" with skill trees. Skill trees are a gap closer (except for the characters that really did need the help, like woody), they are bonuses. But because everyone on the forum is so used to the game, plays with all skill points enabled, this new state becomes the default. (Maybe an, erase all point progression or a harder difficulty that disables skill trees will help make that more apparent).

This system isn't flawless but I think Klei made the right choice in how progression was to be tackled in DST. I'm glad they're here and I can't wait to see what skill trees the future brings.

[Sesekriri]

Also, because you can't pick every skill then skilltrees should (if done well) give multiple play-styles or essentially 'varients' to characters

[Mike23Ua]

You know what’s important about RogueLite/Like games? Skill Trees & Progression, but depending on the game.. Progress can exist across multiple save files (like it does now) or get erased so you have to start over (like Iron Mode on Outbreak Endless Nightmares)

What would benefit Klei greatly would be to make optional modes for Both.

I disagree that character reworks were “complete” before skill trees though, just look at whatever the heck Willow has turned into now lol.

I have conflicted feelings about starting new worlds as Willow with all those Mage powers already unlocked.

And the closest other character to comparison (besides maybe Maxwell..) is Wickerbottom, but to use her mage powers requires gathering various ingredients across the constant & then crafting different spell books.

For WILLOW however she gets magic lighter that sucks up fires, and Dragonball Z Kamemeha blasts on Day 1…

As RogueLike/Lite enjoyer, like I said.. I’ve got conflicted feelings on if I should love it or hate it.

If I can make a pretty simple & straightforward SUGGESTION to Klei though- If they have plans to add an actual harder difficulty or RogueLite mode into DST: then perhaps the skill trees tied exclusively to playing under that Mode- Can have various Pro’s & Con’s with harsher Downsides instead of everything being all Upsides.

Klei is no stranger to creating RogueLite/Like games so they know exactly what I’m craving.

”Take this buff or relic but suffer getting this negative effect” etc.

Woodie gains immunity to moon curse but because he isn’t being exposed to the transformations as often by anymore, losses control over which form he can turn into or how long he stays in transformation.

You know standard RogueLike/Lite stuff- And Klei are flippin experts at it…. They make several “Rogue” games, so it’s beyond frustrating to watch DST be exclusively sandbox with lots of powerful perks & skill points that only add upsides.

Edited March 5 by Mike23Ua

[ADM]

I agree entirely. Only thing, as you said, is that there are problems about the skilltrees on how they work and unlocks in globality. As much as I want to see what the other characters get from them (with some expectations ngl), I'm rather unhappy about anything else surrounding skilltrees progression, insight, affinities.

It's all over the top in boring ways and we're 1.5 week away from celebrating the anniversary of their arrival without a single change done to their functioning. I leaves a bitter taste that in that much time none of the suggestions were even attempted. I hope they're not here to stay in this state and if possible before all skilltrees are finished as we know it's gonna take forever...

[BezKa]

Why it doesn't matter:

Skill trees are adding character specific content, it's not hard to draw a similarity between the series of character specific updates. The only difference is that they don't make outdated characters more fun and fitted into the world, they just make people who like being OP "consider playing them"

Also I disagree with everyhig else starting at the very bottom because DST doesn't need a progression system. DS could have had all the characters unlocked from the start and been fine. The real progression is the one in the world itself, and it is already brilliantly achieved by science unlocks, world exploration etc not by Wilson putting food in his beard.

 

[Swiyss]

17 minutes ago, ADM said:

I agree entirely. Only thing, as you said, is that there are problems about the skilltrees on how they work and unlocks in globality. As much as I want to see what the other characters get from them (with some expectations ngl), I'm rather unhappy about anything else surrounding skilltrees progression, insight, affinities.

It's all over the top in boring ways and we're 1.5 week away from celebrating the anniversary of their arrival without a single change done to their functioning. I leaves a bitter taste that in that much time none of the suggestions were even attempted. I hope they're not here to stay in this state and if possible before all skilltrees are finished as we know it's gonna take forever...

I really would like if they experimented with more in-world interactions. Tieing some skills per world would be way better.

15 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Why it doesn't matter:

Skill trees are adding character specific content, it's not hard to draw a similarity between the series of character specific updates. The only difference is that they don't make outdated characters more fun and fitted into the world, they just make people who like being OP "consider playing them"

Also I disagree with everyhig else starting at the very bottom because DST doesn't need a progression system. DS could have had all the characters unlocked from the start and been fine. The real progression is the one in the world itself, and it is already brilliantly achieved by science unlocks, world exploration etc not by Wilson putting food in his beard.

 

Indeed the skills are underwhelming, atleast some of them.

I would love if they revisited some skills and made the options and choices clearer.

Having literally 6 areas in which it can be focused implies that atleast 4 are maximized, which makes 0 sense. Why do we get to choose even if the majority of sides are able to be complete. 

Some other very good examples of skill trees have atleast all of these sides connected somehow. The lines in which connects the skills are themselves somewhat bad implemented.

[Habakkuk]

What progression? Stay alive doing nothing makes you win new points. 

[Szczuku]

7 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Klei was presented with a dilemma, how to add progression to the game

Oh man, oh man, you're really giving it your all to justify skill trees as a good move, huh?

You know how a proper sense of progression and help for new players could've been added to dst?

Survivor notes

A concept that after surviving for enough time you gain a note written by one of the survivors that sheds some light on gameplay mechanics and acts as a tip; all while being written and presented as an immersive, in-universe piece of text on papyrus. For example the first survivor note you'd receive would be about the lethal darkness. In fact, the note would take 1 in-game day to be unlocked, meaning that a newbie would have gotten killed by Charlie and they'd only see the note after respawining/starting a new world, which I believe would set the tone of dst quite nicely.

"This world is hostile, it does not want us here. Monsters lurk in the dark, yet it is the darkness itself that needs to be feared among all else. (Yellow paint text to indicate importance) Always have a torch handy come dusk"

Would you look at that, it combines both the insight gaining method (existing), loading screen tips for new players, as well as a sense of progression in a form of expanding your irl knowledge of the game (goodbye scrapbook and wiki). And it does all of that without making characters overpowered, splitting the community apart, adding ugly UIs and it manages to maintain the vibe of the game. You can even stick a note loading meter in the corner, if you want to make sure the players know that there's more notes to unlock.

7 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

A rework is meant to add a baseline to a character

Unlock all points once and the tree becomes your character's baseline

7 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

The characters are already complete, they aren't being "completed" with skill trees

Uh-huh, except that Willow kinda got a whole new mechanic added by the skill tree in the form of her pyromancy. This isn't a case of the skilltree expanding on a character's established abilities. It just straight up gives Willow something that she didn't have before. And I'm sure we'll see more of that.

[Habakkuk]

15 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Oh man, oh man, you're really giving it your all to justify skill trees as a good move, huh?

You know how a proper sense of progression and help for new players could've been added to dst?

Survivor notes

A concept that after surviving for enough time you gain a note written by one of the survivors that sheds some light on gameplay mechanics and acts as a tip; all while being written and presented as an immersive, in-universe piece of text on papyrus. For example the first survivor note you'd receive would be about the lethal darkness. In fact, the note would take 1 in-game day to be unlocked, meaning that a newbie would have gotten killed by Charlie and they'd only see the note after respawining/starting a new world, which I believe would set the tone of dst quite nicely.

"This world is hostile, it does not want us here. Monsters lurk in the dark, yet it is the darkness itself that needs to be feared among all else. (Yellow paint text to indicate importance) Always have a torch handy come dusk"

Would you look at that, it combines both the insight gaining method (existing), loading screen tips for new players, as well as a sense of progression in a form of expanding your irl knowledge of the game (goodbye scrapbook and wiki). And it does all of that without making characters overpowered, splitting the community apart, adding ugly UIs and it manages to maintain the vibe of the game. You can even stick a note loading meter in the corner, if you want to make sure the players know that there's more notes to unlock.

Unlock all points once and the tree becomes your character's baseline

Uh-huh, except that Willow kinda got a whole new mechanic added by the skill tree in the form of her pyromancy. This isn't a case of the skilltree expanding on a character's established abilities. It just straight up gives Willow something that she didn't have before. And I'm sure we'll see more of that.

No please! Let people discover things in the old way, scrapbook is boring, survival notes is boring too. I don't want read to know that night kills, I want have my encounter with Charlie bro. Just imagine how boring it will be to know about all treats beforehand. Where is the fun in that? Avoid all danger because you read about that before?

[BezKa]

40 minutes ago, Habakkuk said:

Avoid all danger because you read about that before?

Obviously, a survival game that punishes you with death and a restart for all your mistakes is unplayable without a tutorial and practice mode, and direct instructions, and wiki to check every 2 mins in case you just glimpse something slightly unfamiliar and get scared /s

Edited March 5 by BezKa

[Habakkuk]

4 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Obviously, a survival game that punishes you with death and a restart for all your mistakes is unplayable without a tutorial and practice mode, and direct instructions, and wiki to check every 2 mins in case you just glimpse something slightly unfamiliar and get scared

So what we were doing in the last 10 Years of Don't Starve? 

[BezKa]

1 minute ago, Habakkuk said:

So what we were doing in the last 10 Years of Don't Starve? 

That was sarcasm, I should have used an indicator, sorry.

Edited March 5 by BezKa

[Evelo]

     I can see where you are coming from however this is roughly how I see it.
     Because the progression is so simply done, tying back into the old DS Solo where it is just "Days Survived" it can also be not quite visible why an Inspiration point is earned. On top of the name, "Inspiration" brings to mind thoughts of creativity, not simply Survive. The Scrapbook is a non-intrusive progression as well where players can discover and learn things to lead them towards various aspects of the game from the details of important things. If the skillsets are to work well the current method of Inspiration, I would like to see, be changed to be more player activity focused. We already have this partially, minimally, with "Defeat CC or AFW". Albeit that will take an extremely long time for newer players so little guides along the way (since DST is adding more and more bosses with most updates).
     The biggest reason I disdain the Skillsets is solely because of the Celestial Portal and how it impacts Player Choice with selected skills. I've said it once and I will say it a thousand more times. If you give players the option to optimize as best as they can, many of them will "optimize the fun out of the game," which hampers replay ability. Simply locking out Skillsets to a once per world thing would alleviate this. If players want to change characters they can via the CP (even though I personally wish they couldnt but Pandora's box has been opened) but keep their Skillsets locked between characters made on that world. This would force player choice to actually matter.
     Secondly, and this is entirely personal, Skillsets I would like if they only had very minimal affects to the characters. Big big things I believe should be baseline. (Also more downsides? Please!) Willow for Example could have a baseline fire ability which could be enhanced or changed depending on which Alignment you went with (Lunar or Shadow). This way you can preserve the player choice as well as not gate new players behind something many will likely never reach (defeat CC or AFW) before getting bored with the game.

When Wilson's Refresh came out which introduced this whole Skillset system I was really hoping it was done for 2 reasons: 1) Give Wilson something super unique but not too impactful to keep him relatively "Default." 2) Allow a baseline UI for Modders to implement future Skillsets to characters as they desire. Having Skillsets be implemented to every character was not on my radar and as seen with Willow and Wigfrid they definitely act as pseudo-refreshes.

8 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

(But PC people unlock all their points by progressing time instantly with the console .)

Btw, Console players can make a solo world and remove everything that could possibly kill them, then just leave their console on for 6? hours after which they will receive all 15 Points.

 

TLDR: I would like Skillsets to be minimally invasive with big flashy things being given to characters baseline. Celestial Portal removes Player Choice from mattering since they can change their mind whenever. Inspiration as a system is simple and not truly rewarding although it is very similar to Original Don't Starve's days survived xp acquisition for new character unlocks. Skillsets are very obviously acting as mini refreshes as seen with Willow and Wigfrid, I hope this doesn't continue in the future. Also more Downsides for characters please Klei?

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Inspiration

it's insight

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

optimize the fun out of the game

let them? why care about people making the game less fun for themselves, considering it'll be made less fun with no way to change that except mods for people that use and lime celestial portal? stop trying to ruin others' fun

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Simply locking out Skillsets to a once per world thing would alleviate this

it'd suck because some perks are only good during early game and people might not want to start another world because they of wanting to try another perk or thinking that a perk is better than another perk they chose before spawning into the world they want to play in for the 1st time

Edited March 5 by grm9

[Szczuku]

56 minutes ago, Habakkuk said:

I don't want read to know that night kills, I want have my encounter with Charlie bro. Just imagine how boring it will be to know about all treats beforehand. Where is the fun in that? Avoid all danger because you read about that before?

Mate, didn't you read where I said that the note about Charlie would be acquired after 1 in-game day has passed; meaning that a newbie would already have gotten killed by Charlie because the night would have to pass in order to get the first note

That's how the rest of them would have to be distributed. The notes would be artificially timed so that the average default-settings-playing newbie would get a tip on how to deal with an issue after said issue has been bothering them for a couple of days. A tip for using other mobs as hound distraction after their 2nd attack, a tip on setting up tooth traps after the 5th. A tip on drying food after the winter has already started, a tip on insanity only after the player has been killed by Deerclops

I mean, sure that's not ye olden days of "Yer played and died until yer learned" but Klei is clearly tired of this being a part of dst. It is too much a gamble for them on whether or not a new player will power through or give up/look up guides. But at least with this idea:

1) New players would still be exposed to an issue with no prior warnings, for the first time at least. That's the same as how it is now: you get killed by the deerclops because you didn't know about him, on your next playthrough you know that he is a thing that happens. The note would simply inform you that insanity auras are a thing and that certain food has positive/negative effects. That's all; no "Ok, so the deerclops is easy: just bait a swing, attack twice, retreat and repeat. Get yourself some jerky and cooked green caps for the fight. Note over". The experimentation with sanity-affecting foods, fight preparation and executon would still be left for the player to toy around with.

2) They wouldn't be given tools to deal with the issue, just knowledge. The rest of the struggle would still be left in the hands of the player, not their empowered Weremoose, Saladmander followers or damage-negating shield

3) The tips would be left fairly ambiguous, just a nudge in the right direction, no step-by-step guides or ferm builds

Yes, this would be hard to pull off but I still think it'd be better than skill trees, scrapbooks and points of interest.

[Habakkuk]

1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

Mate, didn't you read where I said that the note about Charlie would be acquired after 1 in-game day has passed; meaning that a newbie would already have gotten killed by Charlie because the night would have to pass in order to get the first note

That's how the rest of them would have to be distributed. The notes would be artificially timed so that the average default-settings-playing newbie would get a tip on how to deal with an issue after said issue has been bothering them for a couple of days. A tip for using other mobs as hound distraction after their 2nd attack, a tip on setting up tooth traps after the 5th. A tip on drying food after the winter has already started, a tip on insanity only after the player has been killed by Deerclops

I mean, sure that's not ye olden days of "Yer played and died until yer learned" but Klei is clearly tired of this being a part of dst. It is too much a gamble for them on whether or not a new player will power through or give up/look up guides. But at least with this idea:

1) New players would still be exposed to an issue with no prior warnings, for the first time at least. That's the same as how it is now: you get killed by the deerclops because you didn't know about him, on your next playthrough you know that he is a thing that happens. The note would simply inform you that insanity auras are a thing and that certain food has positive/negative effects. That's all; no "Ok, so the deerclops is easy: just bait a swing, attack twice, retreat and repeat. Get yourself some jerky and cooked green caps for the fight. Note over". The experimentation with sanity-affecting foods, fight preparation and executon would still be left for the player to toy around with.

2) They wouldn't be given tools to deal with the issue, just knowledge. The rest of the struggle would still be left in the hands of the player, not their empowered Weremoose, Saladmander followers or damage-negating shield

3) The tips would be left fairly ambiguous, just a nudge in the right direction, no step-by-step guides or ferm builds

Yes, this would be hard to pull off but I still think it'd be better than skill trees, scrapbooks and points of interest.

But...we kind of already have that, those are character quotes... 

I am totally against anything that take our hands and teaches us about stuff, I love the unknown, the exploration, the surprises, the new ways we find to solve problems and etc...  The people who give up at the first problem will not stop to read a lot of things, I think. 

Maybe character quotes could have a upgrade and give more info when we Inspect things.  

Edited March 5 by Habakkuk

[Pomato]

To the people that don't like the game because it's too hard, or demands the game to offer them immediate rewards, progression, and validation, I would like to say:

Vegetable, then more practice

Play no up, then do not play

Before is before, now is now.

If you take before as now,

Brother, why don't you take when you were born to compare？ 

(Doge)

[The Starver]

5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Survivor notes

A concept that after surviving for enough time you gain a note written by one of the survivors that sheds some light on gameplay mechanics and acts as a tip; all while being written and presented as an immersive, in-universe piece of text on papyrus. For example the first survivor note you'd receive would be about the lethal darkness. In fact, the note would take 1 in-game day to be unlocked, meaning that a newbie would have gotten killed by Charlie and they'd only see the note after respawining/starting a new world, which I believe would set the tone of dst quite nicely.

"This world is hostile, it does not want us here. Monsters lurk in the dark, yet it is the darkness itself that needs to be feared among all else. (Yellow paint text to indicate importance) Always have a torch handy come dusk"

Would you look at that, it combines both the insight gaining method (existing), loading screen tips for new players, as well as a sense of progression in a form of expanding your irl knowledge of the game (goodbye scrapbook and wiki). And it does all of that without making characters overpowered, splitting the community apart, adding ugly UIs and it manages to maintain the vibe of the game. You can even stick a note loading meter in the corner, if you want to make sure the players know that there's more notes to unlock.

Yes. That's exactly the kind of thing they would have done a few years ago...

But I think they're losing their passion for the game. Has anyone else noticed that the updates have been getting progressively smaller and more underwhelming as time goes on? Another indicator that maybe DST isn't going to last too much longer is that they've kind of given up on story trailers, ARGs, puzzles, lore quotes, etc., and it's disheartening. It honestly kind of feels like the game is dying...

Maybe I should make a mod where the world slowly dies, as the rifts slowly destabilize the world, while the Survivors' actions only seem to make things worse, with the game ending as Alter crashes into earth and the shadow power thing comes from the depths, and as they battle it out, and the Constant is destroyed.

[HowlVoid]

8 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Oh man, oh man, you're really giving it your all to justify skill trees as a good move, huh?

Lol, literally was stated by JoeW they wanted more progression after death.

8 hours ago, Szczuku said:

You know how a proper sense of progression and help for new players could've been added to dst?

Yeah, no. "Tips", isn't tangible proof of progression. You missed the whole point.

8 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Uh-huh, except that Willow kinda got a whole new mechanic added by the skill tree in the form of her pyromancy. This isn't a case of the skilltree expanding on a character's established abilities. It just straight up gives Willow something that she didn't have before. And I'm sure we'll see more of that.

Almost like her pyromancy expanding is progression 

And willow is one of the characters that was very bland and needed help. I did mention that 

14 hours ago, BezKa said:

Why it doesn't matter:

It obviously does since everyone groans and moans "reworks 2.0 electric bogaloo".

14 hours ago, BezKa said:

Skill trees are adding character specific content, it's not hard to draw a similarity between the series of character specific updates. The only difference is that they don't make outdated characters more fun and fitted into the world, they just make people who like being OP "consider playing them"p

That's your opinion, I think it makes them quite fun and encouraging to play. 

14 hours ago, BezKa said:

Also I disagree with everyhig else starting at the very bottom because DST doesn't need a progression system.

It obviously does given feedback Klei has gotten outside the forum.

Here's a reality check: there are more players playing this game outside the forum than in it.

14 hours ago, BezKa said:

DS could have had all the characters unlocked from the start and been fine. The real progression is the one in the world itself, and it is already brilliantly achieved by science unlocks, world exploration etc not by Wilson putting food in his beard.

 

You missed the point entirely, this is progression after Death.

What proof of progression do you have if you never get past winter. Maybe, just maybe, skill trees add a little push to keep playing past that point.

[The Starver]

14 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

electric bogaloo

Grian...?

[BezKa]

16 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

What proof of progression do you have if you never get past winter. Maybe, just maybe, skill trees add a little push to keep playing past that point.

Why do you want to push players to that point if they wouldn't otherwise. If they keep dying and decide "hm. This dying-over-and-over game is sure demotivating me with all this death, I don't wanna play anymore" they probably won't enjoy the rest of the game, will they

[HowlVoid]

14 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Why do you want to push players to that point if they wouldn't otherwise. If they keep dying and decide "hm. This dying-over-and-over game is sure demotivating me with all this death, I don't wanna play anymore" they probably won't enjoy the rest of the game, will they

 

Because that's how video game development works???

You give incentives to keep people playing in the hopes it makes the experience more enjoyable.

Which seems to be working given the player base only keeps growing.

[BezKa]

3 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You give incentives to keep people playing in the hopes it makes the experience more enjoyable.

Isn't the game being fun the incentive?...

3 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Which seems to be working given the player base only keeps growing.

As it has before skill trees so why now

[Faintly Macabre]

20 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Isn't the game being fun the incentive?

Maybe they don't understand what's fun about it yet. Maybe it's just the thing to keep some people around long enough to learn how to deal with issues. Maybe since they're new players there's things in the skill trees that veterans dismiss as unnecessary or suboptimal that can actually resolve an issue in a way that keeps them playing long enough to work out other solutions.

24 minutes ago, BezKa said:

As it has before skill trees so why now

Because they want to continue to grow and retention is important and feedback told them this would be a good way to facilitate those two things?

God, why do you people make such a big ****ing deal about this? If you hate them so much just don't use them or something. I cannot fathom why you are all still thrashing against them a year later. I have never seen a group of people so angry about stuff they don't even need to interact with and that wouldn't otherwise affect them in any way. Grow up.

[BalkanCockroach]

10 hours ago, Habakkuk said:

What progression? Stay alive doing nothing makes you win new points. 

Staying alive is doing something for new players.