i feel like wolfgang's skill tree could still use a touch up

[fabin]

so, when the trio got their skill trees, wormwood's was really, REALLY underwhelming. who would want a skill that makes the lord of fruit flies to show up faster??? anyway, update drops and shortly after the devs rework the skill tree to be actually good in another patch

but wolfgang's skill tree was barely even touched in the beta itself aside from bugfixes, let alone in the update release. i feel like wolfgang deserved some love in his skill tree, even wilson's is better than his (i like wilson's skill tree, baffling i know)

chore skills are great, i like those :);

the might branch is literally just more damage for endgame, in a way that is what wolfgang's character is i suppose;

and the training skills, man, those perks are all over the place! why does wolfgang have a skill that can buff followers, only when he's not mighty? you're telling me i gotta handicap myself to make my followers deal a smidge more damage? (i know it's 2x damage, but with how unoften most followers attack i'd be suprised if it actually outdamages a mighty wolfgang) i guess it's to help a team better, but the buff for a team of players is a sanity bonus?

anyway, more dumbells and dumbell damage is good, i just wish there was dumbells for the ruins' gems. like an orange gembell that tries to slide closer to you after you throw it, and uses less durability when thrown, a yellow gembell that heats you up and gives you light when lifting, and can turn into an iridescent gembell that cools you instead, a green gembell that creates copies when thrown to deal more damage in an area, etc;

i could go through some more skills, but i feel like my point is made. i just wish wolfgang's skill tree was more interesting than "deal more damage in the endgame :)" and some of his skills got more fleshed out

thoughts?

 

[BalkanCockroach]

I am not looking forward for the ■■■■■■■■■.

[Toros]

I agree 100%.

Wolfgang’s skill tree doesn’t have much choice in it.

When you consider that the 6 gym focused skills are worthless, the whole tree only has two choices:

1) Lunar or Shadow alignment (which basically comes down to before or after FW fight)

2) Leg day or heavy hitter 2

There’s not enough viable skills to force you to make any hard choices, and what is there is in many cases very boring.

The chores tree is by far the most fun and engaging, dumbbell developer is fun and useful, coaching is only useful for the sanity increase to a group, leg day gives some extra speed in normal form.

Everything else is either a waste of insight or passive damage increases.

Wolfgang’s problem isn’t just the skill tree, in general he’s effective but boring.

[Mike23Ua]

There’s not a whole lot that Klei can do to make Wolfgang more interesting, his entire lot is super strength.. and unless Klei added a few Wolfgang exclusive things he could do while Mighty, it’s always just going to feel like raw damage output and not much else.

I see your Dumbell Suggestions but at what point does that turn Wolfgang into another character? For example I always thought it would be cool if Wolfgang had a Dark Magic Teleportation Dumbell- He winds it up, tosses it and then teleports to its landing location.

But doing that effectively turns him into Wortox..

The only thing I can think of that would actually feel fitting for Wolfgang is more unique to Wolfgang stuff he can do, like for example maybe he can just rip out plugged sinkholes with his bare hands & then also put the plug back down on top of them?

Id defiantly switch to Wolfgang to Re-Plug up Sinkholes players have busted open too close to base so bats pour out into base every night.

It won’t make Wolfgang anymore fun to use in a combat scenario, but then again there’s not much you can do with a character dishing out 2x damage in fights.

[fabin]

13 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

I am not looking forward for the skilltree refreshes.

i'm not either, i'm just hoping they'll do the same for wolfgang as they did for mr. funny plant man

[Theukon-dos]

Chief, I need to be real with you. I don't think simple "touch ups" could save Wolfgang's skill tree as is. I don't even like skill trees as a whole, and even I'm dissapointed by how damn bland his is. You'd probably have a better time eating blanched tree bark than playing with Wolfgang's skill tree. Because as Toroic said, so many of his perks are completely useless that it's not even a tree at all. More like a skill fence post.

 

And y'know what? Sure. Maybe you could argue that they didn't want to make Wolfgang's skill tree too strong sense he's already good; unlike Woodie or Willow. But here's the thing, as bland as it is, Wolfgang's skill tree is still a huge boost in power for him. He gets almost all of the planar damage that he lost back; further begging the question of what the point of Planar was but I digress; and he also gets a HUGE 30% damage boost against either lunar or shadow aligned creatures, which means an advantage against some of the most common enemies in the game (shadow creatures) and against some of the most important or most rewarding bosses in the game (Basically everything related to the shadow and lunar quests.) What? You thought that ruins rushing as Wolfgang was too hard? Well here, have an extra 30% damage to basically everything you'll run into down there.

[BalkanCockroach]

9 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

further begging the question of what the point of Planar wa

Wanda nerf. The whole point was to nerf wanda. Also wanda isnt and wasnt even that good imo. She was strong but not as strong as other people said. She was actually literally Maxwell. High utility and good combat but risky to play. But seriously they probably didn't wanna make wolfgang less useful cause his whole existence is damage.

[chirsg]

I hate that Wolfgang's quote is a lie.

he says he'll deadlift a boulder but can only mine it. 

[Cheggf]

Wolfgang's skill tree could not use a "touch-up", Wolfgang's skill tree could use a complete removal and replacement with something completely different. Literally every single skill in his entire tree, with only two exceptions, is just "Pre-existing number is now bigger".

[_zwb]

16 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

*All skill trees could use a complete removal

Fixed it

[Evelo]

As one of the people who fought very very hard for Wormwood's skillset to be changed post launch. It is still, I want to say... not finished?

It is too powerful I feel. Wolfgangs is pretty good (except the dumbbell crafting) because of how "weak" it is. If Klei wanted a re-refresh for a lot of characters, make it baseline! Skillsets I wish were never implemented, but since they are might as well make them very minor, not something that drastically changes playstyles. Playstyle differences work best when it is tied to a character's downsides and upsides that are baseline.

[Toros]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

There’s not a whole lot that Klei can do to make Wolfgang more interesting, his entire lot is super strength.. and unless Klei added a few Wolfgang exclusive things he could do while Mighty, it’s always just going to feel like raw damage output and not much else.

There’s a ton that could be done to make Wolfgang more interesting, and the core of it is already present in his chores tree.

You could make mightiness be a resource that is spent to do cool stuff like 1 shotting work objects, instead of a meter that you can ignore when working or fighting because you’ll maintain mightiness no matter what.

Kind of like a mana meter, but you get to do physical feats with.

Wolfgang doesn’t have to be boring, but I think his refresh should be fundamentally reconsidered (working out is boring) and his skill tree almost entirely replaced.

[MadMatt]

20 minutes ago, Toros said:

You could make mightiness be a resource that is spent to do cool stuff like 1 shotting work objects, instead of a meter that you can ignore when working or fighting because you’ll maintain mightiness no matter what.

Give Wolfgang what Willow and Maxwell got where he can activate different immediate and overtime buffs in exchange for flat and max mightiness. Conceptually I hate this idea but ngl it kinda cracks open a lot of potential for cool Wolfgang skills while keeping his power "balanced".

[Toros]

7 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

Give Wolfgang what Willow and Maxwell got where he can activate different immediate and overtime buffs in exchange for flat and max mightiness. Conceptually I hate this idea but ngl it kinda cracks open a lot of potential for cool Wolfgang skills while keeping his power "balanced".

I was thinking more individual acts costing mightiness vs sustained abilities (though you absolutely could have a sustained ability that drains mightiness over time).

An example would be instead of rng based 1 shotting, you could scale the mightiness cost to the number of hits remaining and make it predictable.  Each chores skill could reduce the cost per hit.

[Ohan]

Everything that could ostensibly be an interesting skill was already piled on top of his multi-round refresh. 

the anchor/sails/paddling boosts, piggyback and marble suit buff, 0 slowdown from heavy objects, working increasing mightiness, the resource one-shotting, dumbells being as good as gyms and other things im probably forgetting. 

Wolf is the way he is because thats what the ppl who play him want.

Klei tried to make him interesting during his refresh but wolf players could not tolerate it.

Theres no room anymore for anything other than big numbers at lowest cost/effort possible. 

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, _zwb said:

Fixed it

I wish!

[Paxtonnnn]

6 hours ago, BalkanCockroach said:

Wanda nerf. The whole point was to nerf wanda.

This isn’t true, in the Terrors Below stream they said that Wolfgang and Wanda will both be getting planar options, and the update after showed that this was referring to skill trees.

[readkey]

7 hours ago, Toros said:

I agree 100%.

Wolfgang’s skill tree doesn’t have much choice in it.

When you consider that the 6 gym focused skills are worthless, the whole tree only has two choices:

1) Lunar or Shadow alignment (which basically comes down to before or after FW fight)

2) Leg day or heavy hitter 2

There’s not enough viable skills to force you to make any hard choices, and what is there is in many cases very boring.

The chores tree is by far the most fun and engaging, dumbbell developer is fun and useful, coaching is only useful for the sanity increase to a group, leg day gives some extra speed in normal form.

Everything else is either a waste of insight or passive damage increases.

Wolfgang’s problem isn’t just the skill tree, in general he’s effective but boring.

I use the gym skills instead of leg day because I rather stay in Mighty form forever. I prefer being able to use piggyback and marble suit anytime I want. 

[Toros]

1 hour ago, readkey said:

I use the gym skills instead of leg day because I rather stay in Mighty form forever. I prefer being able to use piggyback and marble suit anytime I want. 

You're wasting points on gym skills.  You can easily sustain mighty form via work and fighting.

2 hours ago, Ohan said:

Everything that could ostensibly be an interesting skill was already piled on top of his multi-round refresh. 

the anchor/sails/paddling boosts, piggyback and marble suit buff, 0 slowdown from heavy objects, working increasing mightiness, the resource one-shotting, dumbells being as good as gyms and other things im probably forgetting. 

Wolf is the way he is because thats what the ppl who play him want.

Klei tried to make him interesting during his refresh but wolf players could not tolerate it.

Theres no room anymore for anything other than big numbers at lowest cost/effort possible. 

Strongly disagree.  In fact, I already have a prototype of a rework that adds some non-combat utility that costs mightiness and is fun to use.

[readkey]

17 minutes ago, Toros said:

You're wasting points on gym skills.  You can easily sustain mighty form via work and fighting.

Strongly disagree.  In fact, I already have a prototype of a rework that adds some non-combat utility that costs mightiness and is fun to use.

There are always some time that I am doing something else, eg travelling and base building. I don’t even have that much fighting going on between bosses to bosses after I have built my animal farms. 

Moreover once you got a boss statue, the gym only takes a few seconds to pump up your mightiness. Having 150 mightiness means you can go around doing nothing, and still not worrying about sustaining mightiness for around a day. 
 

If you don’t like this playstyle you can feel free to ignore it. I think that’s what a skilltree supposed to be. 

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

4 hours ago, Ohan said:

Wolf is the way he is because thats what the ppl who play him want.

Klei tried to make him interesting during his refresh but wolf players could not tolerate it.

Those were the days...

I miss yelling about Wolfgang.

(This is a joke I hated all of it)

[Theukon-dos]

7 hours ago, readkey said:

There are always some time that I am doing something else, eg travelling and base building. I don’t even have that much fighting going on between bosses to bosses after I have built my animal farms. 

Moreover once you got a boss statue, the gym only takes a few seconds to pump up your mightiness. Having 150 mightiness means you can go around doing nothing, and still not worrying about sustaining mightiness for around a day. 
 

If you don’t like this playstyle you can feel free to ignore it. I think that’s what a skilltree supposed to be. 

Thing is though, even for your use case, Leg day's 10% speed boost perfectly cancels out the Piggyback's 10% speed penalty. So you'd still get just as much value out of it 90% of the time for only 1/5th the insight investment. I'll admit that this isn't the case with the Marble Suit's 30% speed penalty. But also wow using marble armor as your main armor source sounds insanely expensive long-term. So I don't know why you'd do that to yourself anyways.

 

At the end of the day, saying that skill trees gives variety to a character's playstyle is based on the assumption that all the possible branches of said skill tree are roughly equal. And while I'm glad someone found enough value on the gym perks to consider them worth it, the simple fact is that for the vast majority of people, the gym lost all of its use cases when Wolfgang's refresh got touched up to not be awful. And gym mastery doesn't do anything to fix the reasons this became the case.

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

the simple fact is that for the vast majority of people, the gym lost all of its use cases when Wolfgang's refresh got touched up to not be awful.

There is almost always at least one gym made on public servers.

[Theukon-dos]

58 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

There is almost always at least one gym made on public servers.

Weird

[Brago-sama]

20 hours ago, BalkanCockroach said:

I am not looking forward for the skilltree refreshes.

Silence, lest you speak this attrocity into existence