Why I think boss fights are “Bad”

[Mike23Ua]

How about instead of throwing insults around or thinking that I’m trying to be a troll or something that instead you guys at least hear me out?

I posted the clip of me killing Antlion to prove a few points.

I COULD have went into settings and enabled 40% less damage taken from all sources, this would’ve massively helped obviously… but that’s sort of the point I’m trying to make. This content needs to be accessible not just to experienced players who have a rough idea of what they’re doing, but Also to the Casual players whom most the games QoL updates have been aimed towards.

Instead of having these fights be activated by some really obscure triggering mechanic, perhaps the players can start the fights with a action prompt, this would effectively allow newer players to engage with the gameplay of Antlion, without needing to do like I did and look on a Wikipedia website on how to trigger the actual fight.

And yes changing settings to take 40% less incoming damage would Help, but I could also just enable Lunar Rifts and gain access to the 70 damage Brightshade Sword.

All of this would collectively add up to be sort of I guess you can say an “Easy Mode” so that even players who can’t just “Git Gud” can actually enjoy the content that the game has to offer.

But none of that addresses my main complaint about bosses: and that would be that they have unique gameplay elements that if those WERENT tied down to fighting a boss, could really help significantly in improving biome exploration/things to do outside of boss fights.

Case in Point: Deerclops Ice Smash attack can hit and freeze the player in place, that’s all well and good and everything, but why can’t berry bushes also freeze over like the player can?

You wanna know why? Because instead of improving how we interact with and explore the game world- A good majority of the games interactions are reserved exclusively for boss fights.

Edited January 13 by Mike23Ua

[_zwb]

22 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Instead of having these fights be activated by some really obscure triggering mechanic, perhaps the players can start the fights with a action prompt, this would effectively allow newer players to engage with the gameplay of Antlion, without needing to do like I did and look on a Wikipedia website on how to trigger the actual fight.

And yes changing settings to take 40% less incoming damage would Help

How does reducing damage you take helps with learning the summon process of bosses? That's not making the boss accessible for all players is it?

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But none of that addresses my main complaint about bosses: and that would be that they have unique gameplay elements that if those WERENT tied down to fighting a boss, could really help significantly in improving biome exploration/things to do outside of boss fights.

I've already said this in my previous comment, there's nothing about those bosses stops Klei from adding those mechanics elsewhere in the game. It's the game designer's fault, not boss fight's.

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because instead of improving how we interact with and explore the game world- A good majority of the games interactions are reserved exclusively for boss fights.

Finally a valid argument, but this is also just Klei's fault.

[mykenception]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

thinking that I’m trying to be a troll or something that instead you guys at least hear me out?

You're not?

 

dear god

[Spino43]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

How about instead of throwing insults around or thinking that I’m trying to be a troll or something that instead you guys at least hear me out?

Why should we listen to you when you never listen to us?

[Mike23Ua]

10 hours ago, _zwb said:

How does reducing damage you take helps with learning the summon process of bosses? That's not making the boss accessible for all players is it?

I've already said this in my previous comment, there's nothing about those bosses stops Klei from adding those mechanics elsewhere in the game. It's the game designer's fault, not boss fight's.

Finally a valid argument, but this is also just Klei's fault.

It doesn’t help with learning the summoning process, and I think those types of things in particular could be a little more straight forward.. such as an on screen prompt of “trade or use X to initiate combat.”

With the way the game has a compendium, scrapbook journal, and the way points system to locate points of interest- I’m 125% certain that this information isn’t going to kill anyone..

As far as making the bosses actually be more accessible there is a wide range of things Klei can do, from less total minions allowed to spawn based on how many maximum total players can be allowed in the server, to lowering health & slowing down the HP regenerating powers, a player can make fights less of a hassle by enabling 40% damage reduction, picking Wolfgang, buffing up on Warly food dishes, & then murdering said boss in Half the amount of time it would take any other character, 2 Wolfgang’s cut that fight down to only 25% total health for the boss.

So, I really don’t see why people fight tooth and nail against some actual PROPER Boss Scaling..

And as far as a bosses unique mechanics being used outside of the boss fight itself, I find that to be highly unlikely to ever happen because then that significantly lessens the value of the boss itself.

Its just a shame, that it has to be this way because I’d really have enjoyed something like a Swamp Biome sized Weather change for Winter Season that effects the Rocky Biome so the ground in the area freezes over into an Ice Sheet you can slip across and the boulders were frozen in ice blocks (like you the player can become if hit by Deerclops ice smash)

It makes me feel like there should be mobs (such as winter Koalephant) frozen over in these same ice blocks that would need thawing out by holding a source of fire near to them.

Same thing with Antlions fight, I can picture a large Sandy biome adorned with sand castles where the ground will occasionally erupt upward with the Sandy spikes.

The thing is though: If such biomes were to be made, then the boss fights become a little less special.

[Evelo]

I understand now what you are asking for, it really does come down to what @_zwb said, "but this is also just Klei's fault." It would be nice for some things from boss fights to make it into the natural world but it really comes down to if Klei wants to do that.

I don't think having an Egyptian themed area would fit, especially considering there is nothing Egyptian about Antlion. Historical or Modern Egypt also is something to consider. Malbatross feels natural because she flys around the shoals and eats the fish there. Shark Boy feels very out of place because there is a large ice sheet in the middle of the ocean with no real sense of cold around the area. Nightmare Werepig mechanically is a great fight but I can totally see the oddity of Marble encasing dreadstone with no other marble or dreadstone seen anywhere in the entire cave system.

In defense of Antion and her mechanics, you originally were talking about her as a boss fight and nothing with the setting, her out of combat mechanics, or how to initiate combat. Do not change the narrative.

[Popian]

23 hours ago, mykenception said:

You're not?

 

dear god

Mike isn't a troll (maybe accidentally and embracing it because treated as such) but a Gemini.

It's easier to make anecdotal mistakes when it is less convenient to launch the game or otherwise get the information to fact check, but what Mike says is mostly earnest and harmless and may take some (or more if you care for corrections) patience to get to the point.

[somethin]

Why do I have the feeling this thread is going to get locked soon.
Also this thread goes on way too long than it should have been.

[Spino43]

50 minutes ago, somethin said:

Why do I have the feeling this thread is going to get locked soon.
Also this thread goes on way too long than it should have been.

I hope it will be locked. Awful thread from an overly arrogant and ignorant person who thinks just because he plays games for 30 years he has the authority to force klei devs to change the game to only his pov/playstyle and no one else, while also constantly bringing up unrelated topics and excuses and not listening to anyone else.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, somethin said:

Why do I have the feeling this thread is going to get locked soon.
Also this thread goes on way too long than it should have been.

Threads usually only get locked when they Desolve into Insults, misbehavior & derailing highly off topic- None of that has happened here yet, Thankfully it’s remained mostly civil- And Why can’t we discuss a controversial topic about the game that should be met with valid criticisms?

I can enable 40% Reduced Damage taken from ALL SOURCES (Boss Damage, Mob Damage, Winter/Summer Damage..) but I can not just choose to reduce boss damage or health without also reducing every other area of the game??

[00petar00]

@Mike23UaYou kind of lose me when you talk about Antlion fight being hard and not enjoyable for solo players. The only problem I have with antlion is that it gets stale after you have to kill him so many times and I am very against that type of challenges that are just on repeat like survival mechanics and you can do nothing about them even if you are thousands of days into the playthrough.

The fight itself is interesting and unique enough, I don't see why solo players would have a hard time. This can't be compared to BQ,Dragonfly and Fuelweaver without any setup, decent players can just run up to antlion without almost any prep and there is no difference between solo and group play in strategy or difficulty ramp up beyond the damage dealt by two players instead of one.

The thing is I only have issues with bosses that make the fight much easier the more players you have and it isn't just because of damage but mechanics or overwhelming the player by spawning minions.

Edited January 15 by 00petar00

[Zhollow]

Before this probably gets locked i want to say that:

- I agree that raid bosses should be more malleable and fair to solo players, but I think skilltrees exist for just that nowadays

- Because of what I said above, it's strange to see that some people simply don't want to accept suggestions involving solo players. Ok, the game is to be played in co-op with friends or something like that. But unless a co-op game requires you to have at least one other person to start a world or a new game, I think it's acceptable and fair to ask for adjustments to solo mode (I also include a possible solution for the input lag on consoles, but that's another story). Continuing... Even today, (While i was) playing Remnant From the Ashes in solo mode, I can have easy fun, as the game is adjusted for both experiences: Solo and Co-op. Now, I'm not comparing the development studios or their developers of both games (DST and Remnant), just comparing which solo experiences should be taken into consideration in any Solo/Co-op game. But again (and lastly), skilltrees should serve this purpose, just as someone previously said in this post.

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, Zhollow said:

Before this probably gets locked i want to say that:

- I agree that raid bosses should be more malleable and fair to solo players, but I think skilltrees exist for just that nowadays

- Because of what I said above, it's strange to see that some people simply don't want to accept suggestions involving solo players. Ok, the game is to be played in co-op with friends or something like that. But unless a co-op game requires you to have at least one other person to start a world or a new game, I think it's acceptable and fair to ask for adjustments to solo mode (I also include a possible solution for the input lag on consoles, but that's another story). Continuing... Even today, (While i was) playing Remnant From the Ashes in solo mode, I can have easy fun, as the game is adjusted for both experiences: Solo and Co-op. Now, I'm not comparing the development studios or their developers of both games (DST and Remnant), just comparing which solo experiences should be taken into consideration in any Solo/Co-op game. But again (and lastly), skilltrees should serve this purpose, just as someone previously said in this post.

My belief is that the reason klei added skill trees is to make the game more accessible and give something for new players to strive for. Skill trees are also there to catch up characters that have been left behind from refreshes that haven't landed well and to catch up characters that are having troubles with rift content that will only be added on to in the future.

Skill trees will equally make raid bosses easier for the group and solo players and it won't make much of a difference where it matters.

The problem are mechanics and minion spamming that are made with the multiplayer in mind without much consideration for solo players.

 

Edited January 15 by 00petar00

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Zhollow said:

Before this probably gets locked i want to say that:

- I agree that raid bosses should be more malleable and fair to solo players, but I think skilltrees exist for just that nowadays

- Because of what I said above, it's strange to see that some people simply don't want to accept suggestions involving solo players. Ok, the game is to be played in co-op with friends or something like that. But unless a co-op game requires you to have at least one other person to start a world or a new game, I think it's acceptable and fair to ask for adjustments to solo mode (I also include a possible solution for the input lag on consoles, but that's another story). Continuing... Even today, (While i was) playing Remnant From the Ashes in solo mode, I can have easy fun, as the game is adjusted for both experiences: Solo and Co-op. Now, I'm not comparing the development studios or their developers of both games (DST and Remnant), just comparing which solo experiences should be taken into consideration in any Solo/Co-op game. But again (and lastly), skilltrees should serve this purpose, just as someone previously said in this post.

The problem with “Skill Trees” trying to make Boss Fights Easier for Solo Players, is that those Same Skill Trees Still Exist in Multiplayer… so- If 1 Willow takes 12 embers into a Boss Fight with Antlion to Combust him/her 3 times in the fight, a group of 3 Willows can team up to spam their combusts at the exact same time to (now even more..) Easily Kill the Raid Bosses.

I have no idea why you guys tend to think this thread should be locked, it’s as Simple as boss fights shouldn’t last a laughable 20 seconds in a Group, and a long drug out amount of minutes if done solo.

There needs to be scaling in BOTH Directions to make the fights more comfortable and enjoyable for players.

And No… “Skill Trees” are NOT the Solution, the only way that would even be HALF Viable is If Skill Trees could only exist in Solo Play while in Multiplayer- They don’t exist because your power is in your Group.

[cropo]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Antlion to Combust him/her 3 times in the fight, a group of 3 Willows can team up to spam their combusts at the exact same time to (now even more..) Easily Kill the Raid Bosses.

I get what you're saying...but this is by far the worst example of what is possible with multiple players. Casting combustion on Antlion is just...like if i said I could get a bunch of players with ice staffs and kill deerclops faster.

 

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I have no idea why you guys tend to think this thread should be locked, it’s as Simple as boss fights shouldn’t last a laughable 20 seconds in a Group, and a long drug out amount of minutes if done solo.

Really was doing fine until Antlion was brought up, just a really bad boss to bring up in the discussion imo.

[Mike23Ua]

6 minutes ago, cropo said:

I get what you're saying...but this is by far the worst example of what is possible with multiple players. Casting combustion on Antlion is just...like if i said I could get a bunch of players with ice staffs and kill deerclops faster.

 

Really was doing fine until Antlion was brought up, just a really bad boss to bring up in the discussion imo.

How so though? Antlion was brought up to showcase having unique mechanics that could’ve been used throughout an entire biome rather than being just part of a boss fight.

And she still needs to scale Upward when 3 or more players are fighting her, cause at only 6000 hp and being stationary, she’s dead in a matter of seconds when fought with a group.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

a group of 3 Willows can team up to spam their combusts at the exact same time to (now even more..) Easily Kill the Raid Bosses.

... does burning stack?  Like if two Willows both cast combust does that even do extra damage?  Or would it just be the same as 1 Willow?  I haven't tested this, can you confirm?

Edited January 15 by Yuuko

[grm9]

Just now, Yuuko said:

... does burning stack?  Like if two Willows both cast combust does that even do extra damage?  Or would it just be the same as 1 Willow?  I haven't tested this, can you confirm?

should be the same since a thing can either be burning or not burning, it can't be burning 6 times at the same time 

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

should be the same since a thing can either be burning or not burning, it can't be burning 6 times at the same time 

That is what I would think, but it sounds like Mike is saying you can stack combustion.  @Mike23Ua have you tested this?  Is this true?

[Mike23Ua]

44 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

That is what I would think, but it sounds like Mike is saying you can stack combustion.  @Mike23Ua have you tested this?  Is this true?

I’m on Xbox, there’s no way to “test” anything, just guess at it, but I would assume that 3 Wolfgang’s using Hambats = 3x as much double Damage, so why WOULDNT 3 willows all using Combust at the same time? 

Bosses don’t even have Health Bars on Xbox (that’s a PC Mod) so there’s no way of telling how close it is to dying either- besides counting hits.

[Yuuko]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m on Xbox, there’s no way to “test” anything, just guess at it, but I would assume that 3 Wolfgang’s using Hambats = 3x as much double Damage, so why WOULDNT 3 willows all using Combust at the same time? 

Bosses don’t even have Health Bars on Xbox (that’s a PC Mod) so there’s no way of telling how close it is to dying either- besides counting hits.

You say it like you know, yet you don't.  You do not need mods to find out this information, that is not an excuse.  You could have asked if combustion stacked, or experimented yourself with friends to find out.  Better to start with learning and understanding rather than making assumptions and spreading misinformation.

I push back on the idea of nerfing most bosses because I've fought them a lot in many different ways.  It takes knowledge, skill and experience to fight these things.  When I started tackling the bigger bosses I overprepared a LOT.  Tons of armor, healing, time, and rollbacks.  I checked out many different ways other people approached them.  Just watching a video doesn't make it any easier, even setting up things like an oven for bqueen has a lot of factors to consider, and adjustments that can be made to suit your experience and resources.  DST is a game about that experience.  Its perfectly fair to tweak it to be easier by reducing the damage you take - it makes it a bit easier to over-prep for the fight - but the bar should not be lowered.  That would warp the experience in the wrong way.  The growth curve is there - over prepare and overcome, then repeat and refine.  As you play you become more efficient and reliable.

That doesn't mean there isn't room for criticism, but you should speak from a place of experience - in THIS game - not just fantasizing about what other games you wished DST was copying.

Sure the bosses are easier for groups, but I'm not jealous of that when I play solo.  It is a different experience playing this game solo vs friends vs with randos.  Practically 3 completely different games lol and so much more to do besides just fighting bosses.  No, hard raid bosses are not what is ruining your experience.

Edited January 15 by Yuuko

[arubaro]

5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The problem with “Skill Trees” trying to make Boss Fights Easier for Solo Players, is that those Same Skill Trees Still Exist in Multiplayer… so- If 1 Willow takes 12 embers into a Boss Fight with Antlion to Combust him/her 3 times in the fight, a group of 3 Willows can team up to spam their combusts at the exact same time to (now even more..) Easily Kill the Raid Bosses.

I have no idea why you guys tend to think this thread should be locked, it’s as Simple as boss fights shouldn’t last a laughable 20 seconds in a Group, and a long drug out amount of minutes if done solo.

There needs to be scaling in BOTH Directions to make the fights more comfortable and enjoyable for players.

And No… “Skill Trees” are NOT the Solution, the only way that would even be HALF Viable is If Skill Trees could only exist in Solo Play while in Multiplayer- They don’t exist because your power is in your Group.

Then buff bosses for MP but dont not nerf them :P

[Swiyss]

8 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

@Mike23UaYou kind of lose me when you talk about Antlion fight being hard and not enjoyable for solo players. The only problem I have with antlion is that it gets stale after you have to kill him so many times and I am very against that type of challenges that are just on repeat like survival mechanics and you can do nothing about them even if you are thousands of days into the playthrough.

The fight itself is interesting and unique enough, I don't see why solo players would have a hard time. This can't be compared to BQ,Dragonfly and Fuelweaver without any setup, decent players can just run up to antlion without almost any prep and there is no difference between solo and group play in strategy or difficulty ramp up beyond the damage dealt by two players instead of one.

The thing is I only have issues with bosses that make the fight much easier the more players you have and it isn't just because of damage but mechanics or overwhelming the player by spawning minions.

There should be a way to deal with antlion after killing it once.

E.g. killing it gives you a trinket. Giving the trinket to the next antlion makes it passive unless provoked.

You would get a free pass, and would only kill it half the time you would normally do.

Yes, having to kill him every summer is really not great. But I think there could be solutions to this. Klei just gotta implement it.

5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The problem with “Skill Trees” trying to make Boss Fights Easier for Solo Players, is that those Same Skill Trees Still Exist in Multiplayer… so- If 1 Willow takes 12 embers into a Boss Fight with Antlion to Combust him/her 3 times in the fight, a group of 3 Willows can team up to spam their combusts at the exact same time to (now even more..) Easily Kill the Raid Bosses.

I have no idea why you guys tend to think this thread should be locked, it’s as Simple as boss fights shouldn’t last a laughable 20 seconds in a Group, and a long drug out amount of minutes if done solo.

There needs to be scaling in BOTH Directions to make the fights more comfortable and enjoyable for players.

And No… “Skill Trees” are NOT the Solution, the only way that would even be HALF Viable is If Skill Trees could only exist in Solo Play while in Multiplayer- They don’t exist because your power is in your Group.

I'm fine with boss fights taking longer. I just don't wanna hit a stupid giant frog for days to not get the blueprint I want.

The rewards should be better, if they were, no one would be complaining. I think.

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

The rewards should be better, if they were, no one would be complaining

people still would since FW, BQ etc. were mentioned in this thread multiple times as examples of bad bosses even though their loot is good 

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

people still would since FW, BQ etc. were mentioned in this thread multiple times as examples of bad bosses even though their loot is good 

Bruh. Bee queen and fuelweaver is easy as a hound.

Just rush the ruins with wx and not even enter in danger, get 4 crowns and 4 bramble husk from wormwood and 3 dark swords, that's an easy kill. You can change characters in the portal later.

If you only play wilson, you can place 5 flingos in a boat + 2 masts on a corner of the ocean next to bee queen and 9 un-fertilized grass tufts. The flingos will try to hit the grass but miss, so it will shoot indefinetely. Then just lure beequeen there and she will keep getting frozen, so you just hold F.

You can also just make catapults and her bees won't stand a chance.

For fuelweaver, just place 2 lureplants and catapults/houndius shootius(since you probably already killed deerclops and ancient guardian) and he'll die in 1 day and a half.

You can also just kill klaus and deconstruct her crown for 4 royal jelly (12 jelly beans). You can also get the blueprint from him if you don't wanna fight her since klaus is easier, just walking cane + road is enough.

Also, fuelweaver drops are not that good imo. I never kill him, and I don't even use the armor since brightshade is better, so I prefer to kill CC.

The only reason you would kill him is to resset the ruins, but I think archives+ruins is enough thulecite gear until you get the brightshade ones, and enough amulets and staffs for 1000 days if you play wilson(gem transmutation) or just kill dfly from time to time.

The bone helm is useless, unless you play maxwell or have wickerbottom farms with her books.

If you need that insanity in a hurry, just craft a nightmare amulet. I have one in a chest close to werepig to trigger the fight, I killed him a billion times already and the amulet is still at 20%.

Also there is no reason to get the bundling wrap. Just use gift wraps and hace winters feast activated.

 

Boss fights are all perfect. Just the drops that need to change since some of them are not worth having it.