Why I think boss fights are “Bad”

[CuteC]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

so how many attempts for no weather pain FW with default damage multiplier then and have you ever tried no purple amulet/the lazy explorer/weather pain?

Do I also have to blindfold myself, intentionally go while starving and play with my feet?

Do I have to tie both of my arms to get the "true experience"?

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's the interesting part because that requires you to lure him away from the minions and kill enough of them before trying to kill the hands and make sure you sync the cds of the woven shadows and the unseen hands and, in case of some characters like maxwell, make sure you're able to deal as much damage as you can the moment you kill the last unseen hand so you need to e.g. start spawning clones before destroying it and keep FW away from yourself by e.g. shadow prisoning, but you need to cast it after he's far away enough from the woven shadows so they don't get to him so he won't start eating them, that stuff is more interesting than zigzagging in p1 which is extremely easy or walking away from everything p2 does and starting to run away after it does two attacks to dodge the spin and waiting for the third phase to laser the crystals   

This just sounds like you got stockholm syndrome with bad game design.

[grm9]

25 minutes ago, CuteC said:

Do I also have to blindfold myself, intentionally go while starving and play with my feet?

Do I have to tie both of my arms to get the "true experience"?

if we're talking about only killing the bosses after getting everything useful, then CC is even simpler because you can weather pain the crystals and just keep chasing p3 until it dies, FW requires you to at least kill unseen hands while keeping a tornado on him to kill woven shadows and manage BQ crown's durability since it breaks with default damage multiplier if you use it all the time and tank during p2 

28 minutes ago, CuteC said:

This just sounds like you got stockholm syndrome with bad game design

having to lure a boss around the arena while killing the minions or cast weather pain every 5 seconds while avoiding the boss, killing the unseen hands and teleporting out of or dodging the bone cage is worse game design than standing in place until the boss starts charging up the laser and then pressing forward or right once or just pressing RMB a few times and then chasing it for a minute?

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, CuteC said:

and harder

Cc stays still waiting for you to get more gear, healing or even going to your base to cook while FW dont forgives a single mistake.

Cc is about aboud evading their atacks and only phase 2 sping atack ans phase3 lasers deals enough damage to be dangerous, phase1 is a joke in need of rework. You don't need to manage using a diverse ammount of items to fight CC, you fight they with the same gear as you would fight any other enemy,  the only extraordinary thing needed is something to reduce your sanity

1 hour ago, CuteC said:

 

 

Edited January 10 by arubaro
Net problem

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

so how many attempts for no weather pain FW with default damage multiplier then and have you ever tried no purple amulet/the lazy explorer/weather pain?

 

How many cc no ms boost?

[Castiliano]

On 1/8/2024 at 5:54 PM, 00petar00 said:

That's what I believe, so many players are against scaling HP for bosses based on player count but I don't think there is another solution that is easy to code instead of doing this. A lot of veteran players have gotten used to the current HP of bosses and they don't want to see them nerfed but literally if any one of them goes back to DS ROG they will see how easy the game is with stacking armor and bosses  having so much less HP.

I know ppl would go crazy if the bosses were "nerfed", but it would seem fair and a good upgrade for the game in general. I believe there could be an option (in the settings) that, when activated, the bosses would have maximum health (as they currently are), as if there were 6 players — or perhaps the opposite, an option that activates scaling of the bosses' health.

On 1/8/2024 at 5:21 PM, BalkanCockroach said:

Honestly they could stop pumping out bosses for a while and implement more other features such as new biomes, mobs, environment enhancers, flora. Like im dying to get more ruins stuff. Ruins can have another branch that leads to separate part with new stuff.

Honestly it's not just the health that makes the fight unbearable cause d-fly isn't that bad apart from the sponging, it's the minions! Especially for beequeen cause you can't catch a breath. Even CK has annoying minions is this a trend or something (it is).

For "quest raidbosses" and i mean CK and FW their healing is just ugh. Now a lot of veterans love FW and tell me he is good, while i agree he simply heals too much with too many minions. While trying to kill the hands and simultanously kill the wovens. FW trollfaces and puts me in a bone cage and i get an aneurism.

I agree with EVERYTHING you pointed out. This minion spawn issue could work in the same way as the Krampus spawn in Klaus and the lava/ice pools, etc. The time has come to admit that DST needs to be well adapted for anyone who is going to kill a boss solo or even who is actually playing solo, since this game is already more "solo" than "Don't Starve" indeed.

Edited January 10 by Castiliano

[Mike23Ua]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that most bosses are designed with the intention that your playing on a PC with a Keyboard & Mouse- And I know you guys get sick of hearing people bringing up the differences, but it’s something that certainly NEEDS to be taken into account, from things like smaller casting ranges, to not being able to choose the direction your aiming in while also moving away from/dodging the bosses Can be significant differences. Anyone who has actually tried to use a Weather pain, Wortox’s soul hops, or ocean fishing can agree there’s differences.

PC Players can Drag & Drop logs into the water to distract Cookie Cutters, or Drag and Drop Meat over a Gnarwail to Befriend it- I shouldn’t need to state the obvious here: But any feature requiring Drag & Drop doesn’t exist on Console Edition (outside of picking things up and moving them around in personal inventory)

I have no intentions of EVER attempting to fight FuelWeaver alone, but you know what would Massively help get me to attempt it?

Lowered Health, probably significantly less healing abilities & for the amount of BS tactics it can use on/against you to be lessened/Delayed based on how many players are attempting to fight it.

Some of you enjoy the increased difficulty of trying to fight multiplayer designed content alone, and that in all honesty- throws you into a class above casual audience of gamers whom content SHOULD be targeted at & enjoyable for, your actually being a bit more of an Elitist about it if I’m being honest.. & it’s Unhealthy for the game going forward to design content around these veteran players who overcome Multiplayer focused content design.

I simply don’t see how if players can already choose rather they take 40% less damage, default damage, or 40% more damage from all sources- Why we also can not choose the difficulty of bosses

Which I hate to say it- but with over 30 of them existing has become over 70% of the game by now… *rolls eyes*

[grm9]

30 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

How many cc no ms boost?

don't think i ever did that since i usually have beefalo by then, just tried and it was first try, you didn't specify default damage multiplier but considering i've only got hit thrice i doubt that i'd need more than one attempt to do it with default damage multiplier  

[Spino43]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Some of you enjoy the increased difficulty of trying to fight multiplayer designed content alone, and that in all honesty- throws you into a class above casual audience of gamers whom content SHOULD be targeted at & enjoyable for, your actually being a bit more of an Elitist about it if I’m being honest.. & it’s Unhealthy for the game going forward to design content around these veteran players who overcome Multiplayer focused content design.

Now you are directly insulting people who wants to overcome difficult challenges by themselves. Why would anyone take your word seriously if you insult them? First you insult the megabasers, then you hate the bosses, and now you insult players. Nice one.

I am not gonna tell you to get a pc and use the singleplayer scaling mod, because I am tired of your console superiority and hate towards anything you lack the skill to overcome. 

Do I want boss scaling? Yes. Bee queen and af are quite awful for solo. I am willing to admit that I hate fighting fw because it's clearly designed for anti-solo, and I don't have the skills of a speedrunner. But I am not gonna go around and insult people being Elitist for beating those awful bosses solo.

[Mike23Ua]

13 minutes ago, Spino43 said:

Now you are directly insulting people who wants to overcome difficult challenges by themselves. Why would anyone take your word seriously if you insult them? First you insult the megabasers, then you hate the bosses, and now you insult players. Nice one.

I am not gonna tell you to get a pc and use the singleplayer scaling mod, because I am tired of your console superiority and hate towards anything you lack the skill to overcome. 

Do I want boss scaling? Yes. Bee queen and af are quite awful for solo. I am willing to admit that I hate fighting fw because it's clearly designed for anti-solo, and I don't have the skills of a speedrunner. But I am not gonna go around and insult people being Elitist for beating those awful bosses solo.

Elitist means that they are “better” than the average player, it’s not meant to be taken as an Insult.

When you play (insert any battle Royal here) and you start out in the bronze bracket for ranked mode, you can climb your way UP the ranks to Elite.

But in doing so- You prove yourself better than everyone in the previous tiers.

[Uedo]

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Elitist means that they are “better” than the average player, it’s not meant to be taken as an Insult.

When you play (insert any battle Royal here) and you start out in the bronze bracket for ranked mode, you can climb your way UP the ranks to Elite.

But in doing so- You prove yourself better than everyone in the previous tiers.

Elitist is a derogatory term to define someone who supports a caste or class based system, it's a type of 'othering' someone with a superiority complex will utilise, usually in order to promote their own social or economic standing someone may refer to people below them socially or economically as inferior by stating they are 'Elite'.

Casually it's used to denote pedigree; Cream of the crop, best of the best etc etc.

The mooooore you knowwwwww

TL;DR - It is an insult, within this context at least

[CuteC]

11 hours ago, grm9 said:

if we're talking about only killing the bosses after getting everything useful, then CC is even simpler because you can weather pain the crystals and just keep chasing p3 until it dies, FW requires you to at least kill unseen hands while keeping a tornado on him to kill woven shadows and manage BQ crown's durability since it breaks with default damage multiplier if you use it all the time and tank during p2 

My point is something being unfair and bs is not "hard" it is just unfair, people think something being hard has to be unfair when that's not the case.

10 hours ago, arubaro said:

Cc stays still waiting for you to get more gear, healing or even going to your base to cook while FW dont forgives a single mistake.

Cc is about aboud evading their atacks and only phase 2 sping atack ans phase3 lasers deals enough damage to be dangerous, phase1 is a joke in need of rework. You don't need to manage using a diverse ammount of items to fight CC, you fight they with the same gear as you would fight any other enemy,  the only extraordinary thing needed is something to reduce your sanity

The fact celestial champion waits for you is rather strange but I keep forgetting about it since I just fight them until the end with no breaks, and yeah uuuuh... generally when you fight something it is about dodging attacks.

I don't think phase 1 has to be changed, it is just the starting phase.

[Spino43]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Elitist means that they are “better” than the average player, it’s not meant to be taken as an Insult.

When you play (insert any battle Royal here) and you start out in the bronze bracket for ranked mode, you can climb your way UP the ranks to Elite.

But in doing so- You prove yourself better than everyone in the previous tiers.

For someone claimed to be a writer, you have no idea what you are writing about, do you?

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, Spino43 said:

For someone claimed to be a writer, you have no idea what you are writing about, do you?

Actually, to tell you the truth- Most writers Don’t.. and in fact, they don’t even know proper spelling or punctuation if you need proof of that just go Google Stephen King.

Thats why there’s a Writer.. and then there’s an “Editor”  

But Nonetheless- Calling someone an Elitist in no more of an Insult then calling Tony Hawk a Professional Skateboarder, while if YOU started the sport tomorrow you’d be a newbie/novice/noob/amateur/beginner etc…

My point is that Game content shouldn’t be designed around these players who are so skilled at the game, they can overcome raid bosses who are designed with the intentions that you’ll bring a large group of players to engage with the content.

These players often cite Solo DS as being “too easy & boring” BECAUSE they’re used to the increased health & MP shenanigans of DST Raid Bosses.

[arubaro]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Actually, to tell you the truth- Most writers Don’t.. and in fact, they don’t even know proper spelling or punctuation if you need proof of that just go Google Stephen King.

Thats why there’s a Writer.. and then there’s an “Editor”  

But Nonetheless- Calling someone an Elitist in no more of an Insult then calling Tony Hawk a Professional Skateboarder, while if YOU started the sport tomorrow you’d be a newbie/novice/noob/amateur/beginner etc…

My point is that Game content shouldn’t be designed around these players who are so skilled at the game, they can overcome raid bosses who are designed with the intentions that you’ll bring a large group of players to engage with the content.

These players often cite Solo DS as being “too easy & boring” BECAUSE they’re used to the increased health & MP shenanigans of DST Raid Bosses.

Arent you the one mocking at megabasers "wanting easy experience" or werent you who laugh when hounds got a fix to properly swim because you though that people were evading hound waves by going to sail or everytime you use laugh emotes when someone says they turn off wildfires? I think you are projecting

[grm9]

5 hours ago, CuteC said:

My point is something being unfair and bs is not "hard" it is just unfair, people think something being hard has to be unfair when that's not the case

why is it unfair if it can be done as any character consistently?

[arubaro]

5 hours ago, CuteC said:

My point is something being unfair and bs is not "hard" it is just unfair, people think something being hard has to be unfair when that's not the case.

The fact celestial champion waits for you is rather strange but I keep forgetting about it since I just fight them until the end with no breaks, and yeah uuuuh... generally when you fight something it is about dodging attacks.

I don't think phase 1 has to be changed, it is just the starting phase.

Fw isnt unfair, only practise is needed. calling him unfair proves that is harder than "mr waiting white torch without mechanics"

Phase 1 is broken in multiplayer and boring for solo

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

Arent you the one mocking at megabasers "wanting easy experience" or werent you who laugh when hounds got a fix to properly swim because you though that people were evading hound waves by going to sail or everytime you use laugh emotes when someone says they turn off wildfires? I think you are projecting

Being able to escape hounds because they couldn’t swim was a “Glitch”, turning off Wildfires is choosing NOT to interact with a core gameplay element (and one of the few features that makes summer have anything unique going for it) 

There is an Option to completely remove bosses from spawning Altogether in DST… But do you not understand that I instead of doing that I actually WANT to interact with the bosses/game content?

My issue is that they aren’t designed for single player play, and as such have wayyyy too much health and too many minions to spam.

Brother I’m currently playing a Resident Evil game on the Hardest possible difficulty where dying will delete your entire game save, and on this difficulty bosses can easily kill you in 1 hit if you mess up.

27,500 hp on Dragonfly isn’t Difficulty… it’s just unnecessary extra grind.

DIFFICULTY would be if it had significantly lowered health, a few more new attack variations, but those attacks did enough damage to Insta-Kill you if you happen to fail to Dodge out of their path.

The boss would still be challenging & require skill, but you don’t have to build the Great Wall of China or carry an inventory of ice staves to enjoy the Content.

[Spino43]

25 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

There is an Option to completely remove bosses from spawning Altogether in DST… But do you not understand that I instead of doing that I actually WANT to interact with the bosses/game content?

Then interact with them and stop whining on here.

25 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

My issue is that they aren’t designed for single player play, and as such have wayyyy too much health and too many minions to spam.

The only somewhat valid sentence, I will give you that.

26 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Brother I’m currently playing a Resident Evil game on the Hardest possible difficulty where dying will delete your entire game save, and on this difficulty bosses can easily kill you in 1 hit if you mess up.

Here we go with the comparing dst to another game that has nothing in common with dst...

I like Ultrakill, and as much as I want to pull that game in as an example for sth, the game has nothing like dst at all, so I never bring up the game on here.

29 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

DIFFICULTY would be if it had significantly lowered health, a few more new attack variations, but those attacks did enough damage to Insta-Kill you if you happen to fail to Dodge out of their path.

Play wes or maxwell without armor/beefalo. You can easily choose to restrict yourself so that you can satisfy your weird lust for "difficulty", and you choose to whine on here instead.

You can even play Uncompromising mod and fight a lunar version of dfly... oh wait you are a console superiority. Nevermind.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Actually, to tell you the truth- Most writers Don’t.. and in fact, they don’t even know proper spelling or punctuation if you need proof of that just go Google Stephen King.

...

Yeah, you are DEFINITELY not a writer. 

30 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The boss would still be challenging & require skill, but you don’t have to build the Great Wall of China or carry an inventory of ice staves to enjoy the Content.

Ice staff is a good and effective way to counter dfly's lavaes, and you DON'T need a great wall of china to block off lavae, I literally only use a stack of walls and a sign to make an effective lavae blocker.

[arubaro]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The boss would still be challenging & require skill, but you don’t have to build the Great Wall of China or carry an inventory of ice staves to enjoy the Content.

You have problems farming 20 rock walls/3 at most (if you mess up) ice staffs so clearly the problem arent the bosses

Also asking for not needing ice staffs to defeat a boss means that you want a boring, repetitive and flat boss fights where everything can be fough with a spear and without using any other item or mechanic. Complaining about needing few blue gems remarks a problem with the players not the bosses

[Mike23Ua]

52 minutes ago, arubaro said:

You have problems farming 20 rock walls/3 at most (if you mess up) ice staffs so clearly the problem arent the bosses

Also asking for not needing ice staffs to defeat a boss means that you want a boring, repetitive and flat boss fights where everything can be fough with a spear and without using any other item or mechanic. Complaining about needing few blue gems remarks a problem with the players not the bosses

Who I play as or how I choose to fight bosses isn’t really anyone’s business & unless you can somehow record your entire gameplay session- you can’t even prove to others you did it a certain way or not..

I can show you a photo of all the boss statues sitting in my base, and yet you’d STILL claim I had someone join my world and help do it.

Its the same as if someone your dating thinks your cheating on or being disloyal to them, you can give them all your passwords, you can hand them your phone to see who your talking to- But in the end… that’s just going to make them that much MORE suspicious over you.

I have no problem obtaining Blue Gems, I have no problem sitting up 50 ice flingo machines around her biome, I have no problem building square walls around her larvae ponds getting healing supplies or gathering Panflutes.

What I have a problem with is how the content is over in about 30-60 seconds give or take when a group of players go at it together- and then taking 42 minutes if you attempt it alone.

And that’s not the only issue with it oh heavens no…

Should you mess up, should RockJaw or Pirate Monkeys interfere in your fight, should you fail & Die.. then that results in either starting over, OR literally wasting away hours of the progress you had put into the game over the past x couple of hours when you pull some straight up Code Lyoko anime type crap & hit the Rollback button to “Return to the Past NOW!”

Rollbacks cost time, they set you back to a previous point of whatever you were doing.. and they make trying to learn boss fights highly uncomfortable.

Sure… maybe it IS a personal skill issue..

But then again, most games let you manually “Save” a restore point so you actually make progress leading up to the boss battle.

 

[BalkanCockroach]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Rollbacks cost time, they set you back to a previous point of whatever you were doing.. and they make trying to learn boss fights highly uncomfortable

Plus it's a command so it's cheating. Atleast to me.

Edited January 11 by BalkanCockroach

[arubaro]

35 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I have no problem obtaining Blue Gems, I have no problem sitting up 50 ice flingo machines around her biome, I have no problem building square walls around her larvae ponds getting healing supplies or gathering Panflutes

Still, you complain about them being grindy when 20 walls, 2 ice staffs or 2 weather pains isnt grindy

36 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

What I have a problem with is how the content is over in about 30-60 seconds give or take when a group of players go at it together- and then taking 42 minutes if you attempt it alone.

Again lying. Not even misery takes 42min, most bosses fall after 5 to 10 min with default damage characters

Bosses could be stronger agaisnt multiple player but they are balanced for 1 player except CK which was designed for multiplayer for some reason

So you lie and exagerate over and over to make the game look like it has a problem when is your problem with the game design

[grm9]

45 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But then again, most games let you manually “Save” a restore point so you actually make progress leading up to the boss battle

quitting saves the world, so you can quit before attempting to kill a boss and then rollback to when you quit the game instead of the start of the day

45 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

literally wasting away hours of the progress you had put into the game over the past x couple of hours

a day is 8 minutes, you lose 8 minutes at most if you didn't save

45 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

What I have a problem with is how the content is over in about 30-60 seconds give or take when a group of players go at it together- and then taking 42 minutes if you attempt it alone

there isn't a fight that lasts 42 minutes unless you're using an extremely inefficient method or for some reason don't always attack the boss after it tries to attack you, why do you care about how much time others spend killing bosses if that doesn't impact you   

Edited January 11 by grm9

[Gotheran]

The bosses in DST are really problematic for one reason or another, and its a shame that they've become such a focus for what started as a survival game. I get that after surviving all seasons once and getting the unique rewards available in each either from resources only available in that season or from boss drops, it just becomes a stale waiting game of how long can you go before you get bored or make a careless mistake.

I think there are ample ways to counter this without making new bosses or threats all the time though, Reap what you Sow  for example, I think the new farming system gave the game a great deal of longevity as when I was bored I'd sometimes start a new crop of plants to amuse myself, which was a far more engaging system than grinding out the resources to make individual plots for single seeds that takes up 10x the space, and as its been pointed out even if you're lazy as can be just planting the seeds and forgetting about it is an equally valid way to approach the system, you don't get that very often in most games.

The tanky health sponginess of enemies and bosses in DST is a serious problem I've seen no sign the dev's have any interest in touching, even when several mods have come and gone that do just that and can allow for players who can't for their own reasons play on a live server or with a small group of friends, so its not as though Klei couldn't just make a system for that themselves, and arguing that the mods exist so why bother is counter productive because one, mods come and go and break with game updates, two mods that are patching issues the developers could fix are a cry to make the mod itself redundant anyway. For a game like say Skyrim, obviously the developers shipped the game and were largely done with it, it wasn't a perpetually developed product like DST, DST has active development going so coming up with solutions to these kinds of problems are being left for the community to fix for ourselves in favor of "content" to keep players coming back and keep the game relevant, in no small part due to MTX which is its own lengthy discussion.

But instead of trying to refresh gameplay systems in a way that's fun and engaging (farming) but not too gimicky (fishing) what started as a survival game has evolved into an action rpg with a focus on combat and a survival game in the background slowing that new gameplay focus down.

[arubaro]

8 minutes ago, Gotheran said:

The bosses in DST are really problematic for one reason or another, and its a shame that they've become such a focus for what started as a survival game

Totally agree. We got 4 bosses in the last 4 updates while we needed years to get new hazzards and arent that great and some of them are a copy of what we already had (hail as a copy of earthquakes..)

 

10 minutes ago, Gotheran said:

The tanky health sponginess of enemies and bosses in DST is a serious problem I've seen no sign the dev's have any interest in touching

They are adressing it by buffing every single character with combat buffs...still people see a problem of needing a couple of items and expend 5 times in a survival crafting game..

Combat is easy and basic, needing to craft and be prepare for time expend in the fight is logical, otherwise we would have such a boring and unsetting experience as SW and hamlet's bosses