Why I think boss fights are “Bad”

[Mike23Ua]

15 minutes ago, The Starver said:

Please do! I have saved both of your previous concept pictures for further reference as I work on these fairly complicated mods, and I would like to have the Egyptian one especially for reference.

I’m still working on it, but there are some things that I keep as sort of personal rules what I’m doing can not use content from another server shard (no caves content was used in the two previous concepts for example) and I’m going to try not to use “skins” either- although obviously if I Did, those would make things look a lot prettier than what I’m showcasing.

In particular the Mossy Covered skins, such as Mossy Cobblestones which would work as like destroyed ruins & stuff (you’d have to hit and damage the walls to get them into their different damage phase animations but you get the idea)

I really wanted to do something with sand & with “Egyptian Curses” and the Lunar Moon Frogs in Particular would had went really darn well with working for that, but I don’t know their spawning conditions, so I just went with regular frogs. This is just a rough concept but Here’s that photo hopefully this helps inspire you to get creative with the mod  

Can’t wait to see what you manage to put together!

Edited February 19 by Mike23Ua

[The Starver]

17 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Can’t wait to see what you manage to put together

I really don't want to get your hopes up too high. I have high hopes for this mod, but since I don't have DST on my computer, I can't test it out. I will do everything I can, though.

[Uedo]

Nice base, love the decorations.

[Jakepeng99]

Is this about bosses anymore?

[Uedo]

34 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Is this about bosses anymore?

Yeah, boss fights are bad because of the Egyptian frogs or something. We need beach turfs and Antlion craters in order to prevent or create new biomes or icebergs, We're gonna collaboratively create a mod that lets us advance into the endgame whilst being in the early game. If we don't Klaus we can't bee queen the crab kings bernie, it's simple.

[Mike23Ua]

57 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Is this about bosses anymore?

Yes, and also no- the original post discussed how bosses are negatively impacting the game, both in limiting who can enjoy them by having an unwavering difficulty level.. And as well as how they have unique animations and fighting mechanics that would really go a very long way in helping just making general biome exploration more exciting and less flat, dull, mundane and predictable.

It is extremely unhealthy for the game to have been around since 2013 but outside of two or three paid DLC expansions that massively changed biomes and the games weather- outside of THOSE, the game has remained largely the same.

And I’m taking these screen captures on Xbox, so not only do I have to actually play the game, but I have to also perfectly line up and screen shot the animations onto the types of turfs I’m wanting them within.

As an example: Antlions Spike attacks look cool AF, but… they’re limited to one very boring highly repetitive boss fight in a tiny and limited location.

What would happen though if we made a Swamp sized biome, covered in sand and when the player steps into this Sandy biome the ground beneath them erupts into these Sandy spikes?

It would look like you were being pursued by a gigantic sandworm beneath the sand right? 
 

Of course since you guys are quick to criticize instead of actually Help with this I can only give descriptions & leave the rest to your imagination, which is disheartening to say the very least…

Because this game franchise has a lot of untapped potential, and one only needs to look over the already existing mobs, turf types, animations etc- to see that Klei spends a lot of time creating “new content” for the game, when what is ALREADY IN THE GAME could make some excellent “New Content” itself.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Antlions Spike attacks, they’re limited to one boss fight

their hit anim is used after moon quay's queen makes trinkets move out of your inventory, klei don't seem to mind reusing old content

[Uedo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Of course since you guys are quick to criticize instead of actually Help with this I can only give descriptions & leave the rest to your imagination, which is disheartening to say

Ain't nothing come free, it's disheartening to try to guilt-trip people into doing work for you. Have you considered investing in equipment and your own labour, it'll feel more rewarding to do the work yourself! 

Also, you're asking people to recreate the vision you have so that they can understand what you mean - people can't see your thoughts, you have to communicate it to them, it might not look like what you're picturing if someone else does it, plus that means people will be creating a mod for you guessing at what you're trying to convey.

Have you considered applying to be a developer? Genuine question there, if you think you have a good vision and the skills to do it, that's absolutely the avenue a regular person would go down.

[Mike23Ua]

On 2/19/2024 at 5:13 PM, Uedo said:

Ain't nothing come free, it's disheartening to try to guilt-trip people into doing work for you. Have you considered investing in equipment and your own labour, it'll feel more rewarding to do the work yourself! 

Also, you're asking people to recreate the vision you have so that they can understand what you mean - people can't see your thoughts, you have to communicate it to them, it might not look like what you're picturing if someone else does it, plus that means people will be creating a mod for you guessing at what you're trying to convey.

Have you considered applying to be a developer? Genuine question there, if you think you have a good vision and the skills to do it, that's absolutely the avenue a regular person would go down.

Because I don’t have any development skills, I don’t know lick about computer programming & coding, when I was going to school Pluto was still considered a planet.. I wouldn’t know how to create a Mod for this game. But what I would know how to do and have got years worth of practice with actually doing- is taking any game that allows me a “Map Editor/Level Creator” and making some really cool stuff with that.

And even if I did know computer programming & mod talents I still wouldn’t want to actually do it.

Because one persons Ideas can only go so far, it takes an actual dedicated team who put their heart into it to truly muster up a great project.

Sure I pride myself on being able to be sort of a leader I guess, by being able to easily say things that will inspire others.. But they are the ones with the actual Talent, & skills & know how to get things done.

I can sit here and post these types of concepts all day long, I can probably even draw some pretty neat stuff if I put my heart into it.. and if Klei were to give me access to a Map Editor I would single handedly make it my personal mission to show them how much more beautiful and full of life the world of “Dont Starve Together” could actually BE by using only the already existing Turfs, Mobs, Resources, Animations, etc..

But my hope is that it doesn’t just stop there, I’d want to show example concepts of what’s possible (as I showed earlier where most mobs in the game seems to already have an existing animation of being frozen over in a block of ice) and then I would kindly ask the actual talented people who can actually do something that I can not to bring such a project into reality.

[Uedo]

19 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because I don’t have any development skills, I don’t know lick about computer programming & coding, when I was going to school Pluto was still considered a planet.. I wouldn’t know how to create a Mod for this game. But what I would know how to do and have got years worth of practice with actually doing- is taking any game that allows me a “Map Editor/Level Creator” and making some really cool stuff with that.

And even if I did know computer programming & mod talents I still wouldn’t want to actually do it.

Because one persons Ideas can only go so far, it takes an actual dedicated team who put their heart into it to truly muster up a great project.

Sure I pride myself on being able to be sort of a leader I guess, by being able to easily say things that will inspire others.. But they are the ones with the actual Talent, & skills & know how to get things done.

I can sit here and post these types of concepts all day long, I can probably even draw some pretty neat stuff if I put my heart into it.. and if Klei were to give me access to a Map Editor I would single handedly make it my personal mission to show them how much more beautiful and full of life the world of “Dont Starve Together” could actually BE by using only the already existing Turfs, Mobs, Resources, Animations, etc..

But my hope is that it doesn’t just stop there, I’d want to show example concepts of what’s possible (as I showed earlier where most mobs in the game seems to already have an existing animation of being frozen over in a block of ice) and then I would kindly ask the actual talented people who can actually do something that I can not to bring such a project into reality.

Ah right. I mean it doesn't hurt to wish for things, good luck with your dream Mike!

[The Starver]

7 minutes ago, Uedo said:

Ah right. I mean it doesn't hurt to wish for things, good luck with your dream Mike!

Stop being so cynical. You must have had something really hard happen in your life, and so you're being caustic and unfriendly to anyone you think deserves it. This thread needs to be locked, which won't solve anything, but I'm still going to post lock requests until it is gone.

Edited February 22 by The Starver

[Uedo]

2 minutes ago, The Starver said:

Stop being so cynical. You must have had something really hard happen in your life, and so you're being caustic and unfriendly to anyone you think deserves it. This thread needs to be locked, which won't solve anything, but I'm still going to post lock requests until it is gone.

Are you ok hun? :s

[Axoshlotwo]

On 1/8/2024 at 1:43 PM, Mike23Ua said:

I don’t know.. I’ve played A lot of multiplayer games that didn’t feel like “Forced Multiplayer” and it’s really hard to explain that but I’ll try my best-

See Certain games- Especially the ones where players can leave and join at any time (drop in/drop out coop) have built in content scaling Mechanics that will scale the game and the difficulty of its contents based on how many players are in the game, or how many maximum players you allow to join.

Examples include Borderlands, Killing Floor 2 & most Recently Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Shredders Revenge.

For TMNT in Particular the games “Difficulty” scales based on how many total players can JOIN the game, not how many are actively in it, so like for example if you play the Shell Shocked DLC with a Maximum total of allowed players set to 6, but your the only one playing- Difficulty and the amount of enemies that spawn will scale to 6 players.

Killing Floor 2 However scales based on how many players are actively in the session (wave one of horde mode only has 28 enemies and they die in less shots if your the only player, it scales to 42 if two are playing, and so forth Etc..)

DST HAS actual settings you can toggle that lets you set a server to a Maximum of 1-6 players- But this does not scale the game or it’s content to match that.

DST being completely designed to be a Multiplayer game is just purely bad business decisions on Klei’s Behalf.

And no I’m not trying to belittle or talk badly of Klei devs (they’re amazing & cool people) All I’m Saying here is that they took a game franchise that was exclusively Single Player, and they turned it into a Multiplayer game where people who still want to enjoy the Single Player are punished unnecessarily for trying to play DST.

But IF those players only play solo DS, and miss out on DST- Then they miss out on the games lore continuation & all the amazing updates Klei have done to DST to further separate it from DS.

But unfortunately.. A good chunk of the games content is designed for Group based activities and Challenges, and therefore doesn’t make for a very pleasant experience for all but the more experienced of Solo players.

(What I mean is that your highly unlikely to see a casual DST player attempt to Solo Dragonfly) 

Those types of things require your own stubborn determination to overcome a boss with mechanics designed for Multiple Players.

However- Should Klei choose to Optimize DST at some point so that it scales based on how many players are playing (or how many total can join)

I think they should consider some of the key points I highlighted in my original post-

And I can give some examples- Such as limiting the total amount of minions a boss can spawn if the server is set to 1 maximum player, Dragonfly’s Magma Ponds can all be sealed off, she can have lowered health etc.

Only players who actually enjoy the grind, or additional challenge of trying to tackle multiplayer focused content is going to enjoy current Dfly.

I need to discuss this because Boss Fights do have unique gameplay elements that are exclusive to the boss and currently don’t exist anywhere else throughout the game.

So- Imagine how much content someone might miss out on if they don’t meet the Skill Requirements to tackle What would otherwise be called Multiplayer Focused Content?

I think that there’s Significant room for improvements in this area of the game.

And I also feel that If bosses weren’t as Difficult to fight as they are now- That (perhaps under a harder difficulty setting players can opt into playing..) That World Changes can be based on fighting those Bosses.

CC & AFW do this- Yes, But imagine if fighting Deerclops caused her babies (mini easier to kill versions) to come looking for why they’re mother didn’t come home that night.

Or if fighting Dragonfly could cause her to corrupt the world and maybe during summer, ponds turn to magma puddles.

Idk- I just would like more Survival Oriented game content updates that change how I interact with all areas of the game, rather than JUST bosses.

And I feel like knocking the big baddies down a peg or two to make even fighting them remotely fair would be a huge step in getting the game to go in this direction.

But of course- Klei knows what direction they want to take their game/franchise in, and all I can do is offer suggestions that may or may not bold over well.

mike i havent seen you compare a single game to dont starve that is the same genre its always batman or games that work nothing like dst

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, Axoshlotwo said:

mike i havent seen you compare a single game to dont starve that is the same genre its always batman or games that work nothing like dst

What games would be like DST then? You obviously can’t say Minecraft, name a multiplayer game similar to DST that scales based on how many players are playing/in the area/whatever.

Since absolutely no one seems to be willing to help me put this project together the thread may as well be locked. But I never strayed from the key points of the original topic.

Bosses need to be accessible to all levels of players- same as difficulty options (which hilariously the game does have) character choice (which also effects difficulty) 

and instead of this constant focus and demand for “new content, new content, new content..”

the content that’s already in the game is going heavily under-used as it is. Do we really need so much “New Content?”

I do still have plans to put together that Egyptian themed showcase, I haven’t had the heart or the inspiration to sit down and do that just yet… but I do have some good ideas where to start.

Resurrection slabs look like some sort of cursed Egyptian slab anyway, so uproot the wood that spawns under it, replace it with moon quay sand, borrow the acid cloud effect from a certain boss…. And you just made a cursed slab that releases an Egyptian curse when you step near it.

And that’s an example of using only mobs, content, turfs, resources and animations that already exist within the game… to make something New out of it.

No mods, no hacks, give me a level creator where I can place a turf & boss element effect, and I’d have it done in about 15 minutes or less.

[Popian]

7 hours ago, The Starver said:

unfriendly to anyone you think deserves it

I find it odd how normalized this bullying over someone's opinions and way of speaking has gotten. Just because it's "socially acceptable" does not make it right.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Since absolutely no one seems to be willing to help me put this project together the thread may as well be locked.

The problem with having it as a mod is that you won't be able to use it, so the appropriate place for your mockups is Suggestions and Feedback, if that is all you have left to share on this.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

the content that’s already in the game is going heavily under-used as it is. Do we really need so much “New Content?”

The thing with reusing things that drop resources is that people will go to the most convenient place to get them. There is exclusively clustering different types of resources together, but it would usually be better to have an additional something to the atmosphere (unless they were to completely redo worldgen).

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

No mods, no hacks, give me a level creator where I can place a turf & boss element effect,

Other than the boss effect that may have to behave in a non-standard way to create a trap, isn't this something that people are already doing? You can get some inspiration from here:

 

[The Starver]

Lock this thread.

[Uedo]

16 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Since absolutely no one seems to be willing to help me put this project together the thread may as well be locked. But I never strayed from the key points of the original topic.

You literally have @The Starver who said they'd help you, please lock this thread now - such ungrateful behaviour, how rude :/

13 hours ago, Popian said:

I find it odd how normalized this bullying over someone's opinions and way of speaking has gotten. Just because it's "socially acceptable" does not make it right.

Absolutely agree, It's also really cruel mischaracterise someone too. I don't hold my opinions for the benefit or detriment to Mike. Again, I really like him. Again, it's great to see such passion, I love that. If I lied to him would that be fairer?

I appreciate the dude, I'll always be honest with him. He's never expressed that i've hurt his feelings, If I ever I genuinely am sorry. But like, to him though, I don't owe you a performance mate

Quick edit: Didn't wanna come across blunt or anything - I'm just saying, If i'm being disingenuous with someone it's generally because I don't really care too much about their response. I'm pretty sincere with Mike, albeit at times sure - i've gotten a bit frustrated, I have to own that, but I respect his opinion so, no, i'm probably gonna continue to be sincere with him, I owe him that more than I owe you prestige to YOUR sensibilities imo

Edited February 23 by Uedo

[mykenception]

at the end of it all, the thread didn't make any sense, the OP didn't consider other peoples arguments and all the tips given to help fighting bosses and decided to go off topic, then guilt tripped others for not helping them in their project that's remotely connected to the main topic of the thread

there's no sense in this thread, might as well make a new thread asking for modders if they're interested in your mod ideas (can you actually benefit from that given how consoles don't have any mods?)

[Popian]

6 hours ago, Uedo said:

He's never expressed that i've hurt his feelings, If I ever I genuinely am sorry. But like, to him though, I don't owe you a performance mate

This is like very deliberately doing something, asking for consent after the fact and treating it as forgiveness. I don't think anyone would genuinely want to be maliciously ridiculed and silenced, and it's likely only being accepted as the path of least resistance.

It's quite telling when this is about the fourth time I've seen Mike say "I'm not trolling, please hear me out" and needing to rush a response because of all the threats to get the thread locked. There's also been several other mentions of not particularly enjoying this (unfair) treatment. Does anyone else here have to overcome these obstacles to make a post?

 

And if you'll notice almost immediately after given the chance, Mike's responses became more focused. Maybe you won't get a direct "alright, you've convinced me" to satisfy your ego, but things aren't explicitly being ignored when changing subjects. Sometimes acknowledgement is enough (that goes both ways).

[Uedo]

39 minutes ago, Popian said:

This is like very deliberately doing something, asking for consent after the fact and treating it as forgiveness. I don't think anyone would genuinely want to be maliciously ridiculed and silenced, and it's likely only being accepted as the path of least resistance.

It's quite telling when this is about the fourth time I've seen Mike say "I'm not trolling, please hear me out" and needing to rush a response because of all the threats to get the thread locked. There's also been several other mentions of not particularly enjoying this (unfair) treatment. Does anyone else here have to overcome these obstacles to make a post?

 

And if you'll notice almost immediately after given the chance, Mike's responses became more focused. Maybe you won't get a direct "alright, you've convinced me" to satisfy your ego, but things aren't explicitly being ignored when changing subjects. Sometimes acknowledgement is enough (that goes both ways).

I see, have a great weekend dude!

[Copyafriend]

On 2/21/2024 at 7:21 PM, Mike23Ua said:

Because I don’t have any development skills, I don’t know lick about computer programming & coding, when I was going to school Pluto was still considered a planet.. I wouldn’t know how to create a Mod for this game. But what I would know how to do and have got years worth of practice with actually doing- is taking any game that allows me a “Map Editor/Level Creator” and making some really cool stuff with that

I can give some great tips for learning, it will take about a month to go from “no coding experience” to “knows the basics” and from there its a lot of looking things up and figuring things out.

Let me know if you’d want that advice, it’s actually pretty easy, just time consuming and frustrating 

On 2/21/2024 at 7:21 PM, Mike23Ua said:

Because one persons Ideas can only go so far, it takes an actual dedicated team who put their heart into it to truly muster up a great project.

Because this? Its just flat wrong my guy, one of my favorite games ever made was made by a single developer and is considered the gold standard in a lot of ways for its genre. He has help now but he didnt for… 15 years?