Why I think boss fights are “Bad”

[Mike23Ua]

I’ve been thinking about this for quite some time when it comes very particularly to DST on why I hate the Bosses..

Now before I start I want to clarify that I’ve been playing video games since I was 2, so that’s over 30+ years of gaming experience & of course during that time I’ve encountered my fair share of fun, absolutely amazing & highly Memorable boss fights across pretty much every gaming genre you can possibly name. So it’s not like I HATE Boss fights, it’s actually the exact opposite of that- When the fights are done extremely well, they can be the most enjoyable parts of the game.

The fights with Ra’s Al Ghul & Mr Freeze in Batman Arkham City are two of my most memorable of that franchise, several of the Coop fights in It Takes Two were really clever & felt rewarding for completing so I DO Enjoy Boss fights, but.. I Don’t Enjoy them in DST.

There are several reasons for this-

1- Enemies are scaled with the intention that multiple players are fighting them, and therefore take significantly longer time fighting if your playing without other players- rather it’s gathering more resources to cheese the fight, or just taking a lot longer than 6 players with Hambats going ham on a boss- It’s annoying & it’s boring.

2- Bosses with Minion spam & Cheap Tactics- DST (& Don’t Starve) are games where Dying is extremely punishing to the player (especially in DS where worlds were insta-Deleted) My favorite boss in DST is Eye of Terror, but even it has its Flaws…

Endless Minion spam, which can overwhelm a solo player if not dealt with promptly.. And the second equally unfair thing in addition to endless Minion Spam- Behavior patterns the player wasn’t expecting/wasn’t prepared for- Such as when this thing gets a nastier look and begins swooping after you at a directional angle 5 or 6 times in a row while also still spitting out the minions you’ll need to keep dealing with.

Again: Not a big deal when playing with two or three players, but Also not fun or remotely fair if playing alone.

3- Boss fights in DST usually reward the player with gear that makes staying alive even easier in a game that the player wants to actively be challenged by.

What is the point of a super late game Armored Bearger Bin that slows food spoilage If Bee Queens bundling Wraps fully prevents food spoilage?

and the thing I hate most about boss fights- once you do them once and get the rewards for doing them, you’ve pretty much “Done” them, and don’t really need to interact with that content anymore beyond personal enjoyment of the fight and it’s mechanics.

A fight which after you die to the cheap tactics a few times and eventually learn the kiting/fighting/cheesing strategies- Is pretty much just repeating the same content over and over and over and over, and over, and over, and over again? (You get the point right??)

Boss fights also tend to have unique mechanics that are exclusive to the boss fight itself which sucks because the rest of the game it’s biomes, and mobs continue to be severally lacking &/or un-Updated to match the newer boss.

Case in Point- FrostJaw Arena features a skidding across Ice Mechanic, which is of course cool and makes the fight more unique, but players should also slip across ice when stepping on frozen lakes or Pengul nests- Why are the interesting mechanics reserved for some Optional boss shoved away in some obscure corner of the map somewhere?

Why can’t the mechanics of said FrostJaw fight be implemented Elsewhere? Such as for example turning the Rocky Biome into frozen Ice sheets during Winters or something?

My point is that boss fights limit the rest of the games creativity…

Boss fights are something you’ll do a few times and then that’s that- You’ve pretty much done them, unless of course you just enjoy repetitive gameplay.

Meanwhile… Klauses Gem Deer could’ve been put to use elsewhere such as a new Season Variation, or Bee Queens Minions could’ve been Moontated versions of the games Bee Hives.

I guess the TL:DR of everything I’m trying to say is that newer boss fights are the very reason the rest of the game feels like something still left back in 2015.

I personally don’t see a reason to fight a boss if I don’t enjoy the fight, or don’t care for the loot it drops.

For me this is CrabKing, this guy probably shouldn’t heal itself at all to be honest, the rewards you get from killing it absolutely suck, and I only plan to EVER interact with it to complete pearls dumb quest & get the CC tribute pieces.

And it really gets on my nerves when every other update is yet another raid boss while the rest of the game outside of boss fights could really use some serious changes.

Klei can’t expect us to keep doing the same stuff we were doing when we first started playing DST over and over again for the rest of all eternity can they?

I mean even Solo DS EVENTUALLY at some point had to get different DLCs with new worlds, seasons & gameplay mechanics.

And as long as things like Wind Tornadoes remain to be exclusive to killing a Moose Goose boss- The rest of the games going to continue to feel dated..

So yeah there you have it-

Multiplayer focused, Unfair, Disappointing loot, Repetitive, & most importantly: has unique mechanics EXCLUSIVE to the Fights that could really make just walking around and exploring the constant a lot more fun & refreshing- But Doesn’t… because then that would make the Boss even less special than it already is.

[Uedo]

Maybe try a non-boss focused game?

(I was upset once that minecraft had too many blocks, I decided enough was enough - I'm going to get some change! Picture it, I had circles, spheres, triangles, you name it, I had all the shapes at my disposal, I packed them into my circular bag, and sailed the oceans, eventually arriving in sunny ol' sweden, I walked right into Minecraft HQ, slammed my shapes on the desk and stated in my best big boy voice 'I AM A WRITER, AND I HAVE SOME NEEWWWW ZANNY WAKCY MAGIC SHAPES HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA', so anyways after Mojang got that restraining order I tried to play other games, now am happi.) = solution.

[Copyafriend]

I mean, yeah, these are all good points, and I would very much agree that most of the later bosses are multiplayer focused to a relatively un-fun extent.

however I think that bosses are the logical conclusion to the solo don't starve gameplay loop, and it makes sense that it in together, a much more extensively updated game, it tends more towards bosses the later in the game you get.

 

Personally I try to compare it more towards games like grounded, the main issue I have with don't starve together bosses, is that progression feels almost completely separate from bosses. you end up with the "best" pre rift loot before fighting any bosses, with most boss loot being more of a one time use item, or a convenience than truly progressing your equipment.

 

meanwhile in grounded, most "bosses" you end up facing are more particularly dangerous enemies, that you end up getting new gear from that becomes the new standard that you use to fight more dangerous enemies. there are proper boss fights in arenas, and they are required for progression, but it more feels like that as you fight new enemies, you either unlock or are directed to new areas with more dangerous enemies that have better loot available.

 

the beginning cycle of don't starve together is fantastic, and I DO love the game for it, but I feel as though once you get the best gear, the game stagnates pretty hard into a "prep for the next boss fight" situation. I mean that's all well and good if you LIKE boss rushes, but it feels like there's no meaty content between the boss fights. there's the content of exploring interesting biomes, and there's the content of fighting strong bosses, (some of which could use a rework but that's a separate discussion for me at least), but there's no harmony between these two sections, crab king isn't so much found because you want to explore the ocean to find the cool ocean biomes and end up stumbling on him, its more that once you're ready to fight the celestial champion you either use the detector to find him, or you curse klei and wander the ocean aimlessly until you do find him.

 

there just feels like a disconnect to me between the fun adventure survival and the strong bosses. I'm not sure how to solve it without drastic measures though.

[Uedo]

35 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Endless Minion spam, which can overwhelm a solo player if not dealt with promptly.. And the second equally unfair thing in addition to endless Minion Spam- Behavior patterns the player wasn’t expecting/wasn’t prepared for- Such as when this thing gets a nastier look and begins swooping after you at a directional angle 5 or 6 times in a row while also still spitting out the minions you’ll need to keep dealing with.

Use a telelocator staff bbz

[BalkanCockroach]

44 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Such as when this thing gets a nastier look and begins swooping after you at a directional angle 5 or 6 times in a row while also still spitting out the minions you’ll need to keep dealing with.

Trump card for that BS is building a wall. And still sometimes 1 or 2 spawn on your side (I'm lazy so i don't wall off the pools even after i kill her).

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

Trump card for that BS is building a wall. And still sometimes 1 or 2 spawn on your side (I'm lazy so i don't wall off the pools even after i kill her)

they meant eye of terror, which's minions you can kill before it spawns new ones even when using a ham bat even if you have less than 1 damage multiplier, you can use ice staves for dfly to avoid cheese and prevent flying hits by shooting it when it gets close enough so it does a melee attack instead

Edited January 8 by grm9

[BalkanCockroach]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they meant eye of terror, which's minions you can kill before it spawns new ones even when using a ham bat even if you have less than 1 damage multiplier, you can use ice staves for dfly to avoid cheese and prevent flying hits by shooting it when it gets close enough so it does a melee attack instead

Im good with the wall. Honestly EoT has so little hp, it's not even worth to complain. Twins however...

[grm9]

57 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

not remotely fair if playing alone

it's unfair because you can learn while bosses can't, you'd need to nerf players to make fighting creatures fair     

Edited January 8 by grm9

[Yuuko]

First off - there is room for variety.  Not every boss has to be every thing, in fact its good if they are not.  We need some bosses that are better solo, and some that are better for groups.  Even if you don't always have a group near by, you do not deserve to play every boss solo as easily as a group would.  Likewise there is room for variety in reason to fight bosses - its okay for some bosses to be forced sometimes, for some to have one time loot, and others to be repeat-able for loot, etc.

1) Enemies are not really scaled that much.  Very few bosses actually have a very high health threshold.  It was more like DS has very low health compared that made fights a bit too fast.  DST slows this down by putting a bit more meat on their bones, and with that players got more options to deal damage.  If there were any scaling for multiplayer it would be UP.

2) DST is a simple game.  It cannot feature things like attack angles, and different directional dodges, quick time events, etc etc.  tbh it sometimes feels very unfair b/c most enemies only have 4 visible angles but can move in 360 degrees.  Ironically a lot of the fights are easier solo b/c you can at least know the enemy is aiming at YOU.  If other people are around you might move into the path of an attack b/c its too ambiguous to actually know which way a rook is charging.  For DST to add things like dodges, directional attacks, etc they would probably need to start including indicators like Forge had.

For things like minion spam - the answer is always to find your answer.  This isn't an rpg where you enter with your character and equipment, and need to pick attacks from a list to defeat the boss.  This is a whole sandbox adventure game.  Thinking outside the box is part of the game.  Its not cheese to use the environment, other mobs, constructions etc to your advantage in a fight - that is literally the game!  As "unfair" as bee queen is, there are ways to handle the minion spam.  They aren't cheese just b/c you didn't think of it yourself before you saw a youtube video about it.  AND just b/c you saw 1 way to do it in a YT video doesn't mean there aren't other ways to do it.  Just try things yourself and find what works for you.

3) What do you think the reward for defeating a boss should be eh?

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What is the point of a super late game Armored Bearger Bin that slows food spoilage If Bee Queens bundling Wraps fully prevents food spoilage?

The bearger bin has easier access but still allows some spoilage.  It is restricted to certain food items.  It is also available only much much later in the game.

So that is the point.  It is an upgrade in the QOL department without total overlap in use - imo quite well designed as BOTH items end up valuable for it.

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and the thing I hate most about boss fights- once you do them once and get the rewards for doing them, you’ve pretty much “Done” them, and don’t really need to interact with that content anymore beyond personal enjoyment of the fight and it’s mechanics.

Depends - some bosses are only needed once, some are needed multiple times.  There is no reason we need every boss loot to be farm-worthy.

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A fight which after you die to the cheap tactics a few times and eventually learn the kiting/fighting/cheesing strategies- Is pretty much just repeating the same content over and over and over and over, and over, and over, and over again? (You get the point right??)

Boss fights are something you’ll do a few times and then that’s that- You’ve pretty much done them, unless of course you just enjoy repetitive gameplay.

It only takes about 200 days to go through all of the content.  After that the only point to the entirety of DST is replay value.  There are a lot of vectors for replay, one of them is becoming better at the bosses, or using different tactics with them.  I have almost 3k hours in DST, being able to repeat the content over and over and over again is probably its best feature.

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I personally don’t see a reason to fight a boss if I don’t enjoy the fight, or don’t care for the loot it drops.

Then enjoy the fights you enjoy.  NONE of them are required just to play the game, you can even just turn of rifts and skip the whole CC / AFW quest chain.

On 1/8/2024 at 9:57 AM, Mike23Ua said:

So yeah there you have it-

Multiplayer focused, Unfair, Disappointing loot, Repetitive, & most importantly: has unique mechanics EXCLUSIVE to the Fights that could really make just walking around and exploring the constant a lot more fun & refreshing- But Doesn’t… because then that would make the Boss even less special than it already is.

idk dude, maybe play a different game?  You always talk about how all of these other games have all of these better systems etc, yet you're on THIS forum ...  Are these other games actually great?  If you like them why are you here?  Just trying to troll us?

I am enjoying DST - even with all of the things I disagree with like planar damage and even some boss design - because the game play loop is solid, the characters and art styles are fun, and the devs are constantly adding new things to try and improve the game.  I think generally Klei is moving the game in the right direction.

Edited February 23 by Yuuko

[BalkanCockroach]

1 minute ago, Yuuko said:

Even if you don't always have a group near by, you do not deserve to play every boss solo as easily as a group would

What does this mean. I don't understand please explain.

[Yuuko]

39 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Personally I try to compare it more towards games like grounded, the main issue I have with don't starve together bosses, is that progression feels almost completely separate from bosses. you end up with the "best" pre rift loot before fighting any bosses, with most boss loot being more of a one time use item, or a convenience than truly progressing your equipment.

 

meanwhile in grounded, most "bosses" you end up facing are more particularly dangerous enemies, that you end up getting new gear from that becomes the new standard that you use to fight more dangerous enemies. there are proper boss fights in arenas, and they are required for progression, but it more feels like that as you fight new enemies, you either unlock or are directed to new areas with more dangerous enemies that have better loot available.

Progression is dealt with differently in different games.  I like how DST has a very flat progression where you can get very strong gear quickly.  I don't like rpg grind styles, where I need to beat x to beat y to beat z to finally have the alpha sword to beat the beta boss etc.  NG+ often kills a game imo.

4 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

What does this mean. I don't understand please explain.

I mean DST is a multiplayer game, so it is not unreasonable for some experiences to just be better with multiple people.  Obviously a solo player won't like it when it happens, and Klei has done a good job of preventing any sort of solo-lock that prevents a solo player from completing content - but its a bit selfish and greedy to think Klei MUST make every boss accessible solo.

Edited January 8 by Yuuko

[Copyafriend]

1 minute ago, Yuuko said:

Progression is dealt with differently in different games.  I like how DST has a very flat progression where you can get very strong gear quickly.  I don't like rpg grind styles, where I need to beat x to beat y to beat z to finally have the alpha sword to beat the beta boss etc.  NG+ often kills a game imo.

you're allowed to have a different opinion, and I wasn't completely advocating the "kill x to get the gear to kill y to get the gear..." style progression. I was more saying I dislike how flat the progression is, where thulecite gear is always the best gear until you beat celestial champion and ancient fuelweaver.

at no point do you really end up with "better" gear, the only example of this kind of happening is with the werepig boss that gives the regenerating helmet, but even that is ONLY almost matching the crown,  and is overall not worth risking in a bossfight.

[BalkanCockroach]

11 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

I mean DST is a multiplayer game, so it is not unreasonable for some experiences to just be better with multiple people.  Obviously a solo player won't like it when it happens, and Klei has done a good job of preventing any sort of solo-lock that prevents a solo player from completing content - but to its a bit selfish and greedy to think Klei MUST make every boss accessible solo.

I don't understand how solo players don't deserve the option to have bosses that are scaled to solo. I also don't undertsand how it's selfish and greedy to want something when i know theres a big solo playerbase and people who think that some raid bosses are too tough. What is selfish about this? And why are we undeserving of such option. If the options gets added people can still play how they used to with configurating it. 

14 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

NONE of them are required just to play the game

What's playing a game to you lmao. Playing a game isn't sitting doing the minimum. It's engaging with different content that the game offers. 

Edited January 8 by BalkanCockroach

[Yuuko]

10 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

you're allowed to have a different opinion, and I wasn't completely advocating the "kill x to get the gear to kill y to get the gear..." style progression. I was more saying I dislike how flat the progression is, where thulecite gear is always the best gear until you beat celestial champion and ancient fuelweaver.

at no point do you really end up with "better" gear, the only example of this kind of happening is with the werepig boss that gives the regenerating helmet, but even that is ONLY almost matching the crown,  and is overall not worth risking in a bossfight.

Sure - I don't mean to say you're wrong, it just progression is dealt with in different ways in different games.

In some roguelikes you have meta progression like Rogue Legacy and CotL where every time you die you get to level up and go back in stronger.  Some have only in-game progression like Angbang where you level up and get better gear as you play, but a new character always starts from level 1.  Some roguelikes have very flat progression where you can access the strongest stuff from the beginning - in these a lot of the game is about these "best options" still not being super OP and you have to get creative to push yourself through.

I prefer flat progression.  Its okay to prefer others.  Until the newest ark DST was mostly a flat progression game where you can easily acquire the best gears in the first season.  I think planar is specifically designed to break that and give some sense of progression to players who like the idea of getting stronger through defeating bosses.  AND the skill trees to satisfy people who want meta progression like RL and CotL ...  idk Klei sure is trying.

8 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

I don't understand how solo players don't deserve the option to have bosses that are scaled to solo. I also don't undertsand how it's selfish to want something when i know theres a big solo playerbase and people who think that some raid bosses are too tough. What is selfish about this? And why are we undeserving of such option.

What's playing a game to you lmao. Playing a game isn't sitting doing the minimum. It's engaging with different content that the game offers. 

b/c you don't deserve anything.  I like monks and martial arts - I do not deserve to have a pugilist character or weapon set.  I like necromancy and summoning - I do not deserve to have Diablo2 necromancer ported to DST.

We can give feedback on what we want and Klei can develop what they want, and wouldn't it be great if all of that lined up for every single person?  But it does not.  So I will give my feedback that planar is nonsense but I'm not going to stop playing the game for it.

Edited January 8 by Yuuko

[BalkanCockroach]

15 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

We can give feedback on what we want and Klei can develop what they want,

That's what i did genius. Wanting content implemented and game balance are totally different things. Just cause i don't have friends shouldn't mean i need to prepare a lot or cheese the bosses. I play and support the game as how it is, and i don't and can't demand anything cause it's stupid and i have no right. But it's clear you are just arguing about this case cause you don't want scaling in the game, just say it that way... my fingers are tired from typing. I gave my feedback about balance i didn't say KLEI YOU ADD BOSS NERF SO I CAN ONE PUNCH BOSSES RN!!!!

15 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

b/c you don't deserve anything. 

I deserve to not bee subjected to beequeen torture hell fight. 

Edited January 8 by BalkanCockroach

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Progression is dealt with differently in different games.  I like how DST has a very flat progression where you can get very strong gear quickly.  I don't like rpg grind styles, where I need to beat x to beat y to beat z to finally have the alpha sword to beat the beta boss etc.  NG+ often kills a game imo.

I mean DST is a multiplayer game, so it is not unreasonable for some experiences to just be better with multiple people.  Obviously a solo player won't like it when it happens, and Klei has done a good job of preventing any sort of solo-lock that prevents a solo player from completing content - but its a bit selfish and greedy to think Klei MUST make every boss accessible solo.

I don’t know.. I’ve played A lot of multiplayer games that didn’t feel like “Forced Multiplayer” and it’s really hard to explain that but I’ll try my best-

See Certain games- Especially the ones where players can leave and join at any time (drop in/drop out coop) have built in content scaling Mechanics that will scale the game and the difficulty of its contents based on how many players are in the game, or how many maximum players you allow to join.

Examples include Borderlands, Killing Floor 2 & most Recently Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Shredders Revenge.

For TMNT in Particular the games “Difficulty” scales based on how many total players can JOIN the game, not how many are actively in it, so like for example if you play the Shell Shocked DLC with a Maximum total of allowed players set to 6, but your the only one playing- Difficulty and the amount of enemies that spawn will scale to 6 players.

Killing Floor 2 However scales based on how many players are actively in the session (wave one of horde mode only has 28 enemies and they die in less shots if your the only player, it scales to 42 if two are playing, and so forth Etc..)

DST HAS actual settings you can toggle that lets you set a server to a Maximum of 1-6 players- But this does not scale the game or it’s content to match that.

DST being completely designed to be a Multiplayer game is just purely bad business decisions on Klei’s Behalf.

And no I’m not trying to belittle or talk badly of Klei devs (they’re amazing & cool people) All I’m Saying here is that they took a game franchise that was exclusively Single Player, and they turned it into a Multiplayer game where people who still want to enjoy the Single Player are punished unnecessarily for trying to play DST.

But IF those players only play solo DS, and miss out on DST- Then they miss out on the games lore continuation & all the amazing updates Klei have done to DST to further separate it from DS.

But unfortunately.. A good chunk of the games content is designed for Group based activities and Challenges, and therefore doesn’t make for a very pleasant experience for all but the more experienced of Solo players.

(What I mean is that your highly unlikely to see a casual DST player attempt to Solo Dragonfly) 

Those types of things require your own stubborn determination to overcome a boss with mechanics designed for Multiple Players.

However- Should Klei choose to Optimize DST at some point so that it scales based on how many players are playing (or how many total can join)

I think they should consider some of the key points I highlighted in my original post-

And I can give some examples- Such as limiting the total amount of minions a boss can spawn if the server is set to 1 maximum player, Dragonfly’s Magma Ponds can all be sealed off, she can have lowered health etc.

Only players who actually enjoy the grind, or additional challenge of trying to tackle multiplayer focused content is going to enjoy current Dfly.

I need to discuss this because Boss Fights do have unique gameplay elements that are exclusive to the boss and currently don’t exist anywhere else throughout the game.

So- Imagine how much content someone might miss out on if they don’t meet the Skill Requirements to tackle What would otherwise be called Multiplayer Focused Content?

I think that there’s Significant room for improvements in this area of the game.

And I also feel that If bosses weren’t as Difficult to fight as they are now- That (perhaps under a harder difficulty setting players can opt into playing..) That World Changes can be based on fighting those Bosses.

CC & AFW do this- Yes, But imagine if fighting Deerclops caused her babies (mini easier to kill versions) to come looking for why they’re mother didn’t come home that night.

Or if fighting Dragonfly could cause her to corrupt the world and maybe during summer, ponds turn to magma puddles.

Idk- I just would like more Survival Oriented game content updates that change how I interact with all areas of the game, rather than JUST bosses.

And I feel like knocking the big baddies down a peg or two to make even fighting them remotely fair would be a huge step in getting the game to go in this direction.

But of course- Klei knows what direction they want to take their game/franchise in, and all I can do is offer suggestions that may or may not bold over well.

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Or if fighting Dragonfly could cause her to corrupt the world and maybe during summer, ponds turn to magma puddles

then people just wouldn't fight dfly if these would spawn lavaes or would do that regardless because almost no one fishes in ponds, the only issue would be not having frogs in the world outside of spring   

Edited January 8 by grm9

[BalkanCockroach]

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

The only issue would be not having frogs in the world outside of spring   

I'm okay with that

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

then people just wouldn't fight dfly if these would spawn lavaes or would do that regardless because almost no one fishes in ponds, the only issue would be not having frogs in the world outside of spring   

Don’t Starve was my first introduction to the game genre that is RogueLite, and Generally Speaking RogueLites are brutal, uncompromising, unforgiving and only get harder as you progress through them.

DS shows examples of this with Adventures Mode & its Seasonal challenges, and the two DLC packages.

But when Klei designed DST- They Flipped the Script, Players aren’t Punished for fighting a boss, they instead get rewards that make surviving the unchanging seasons that much more convenient for them.

There are some features that still retain this aspect- such as killing a moose goose and then it’s babies go crazy gobbling everything and spinning around like mad angry tornadoes, or more recently: Killing CC & AFW causing World Rifts.

But for the most part: You’ve always had to weigh Risk vs Reward.

Example: If Deerclops Eye makes the two upcoming Seasons (Spring & Summer) that much easier to survive through- Then perhaps the NEXT Winter Season should spawn Deerclops Baby Mobs looking for their lost Momma?

It gives you that Risk vs Reward Feeling.. “Do I want to trivialize spring with an Eyebrella but in the process endure a more difficult Winter 2, or do I want to endure spring without killing Deerclops so Winter 2 is less difficult?”

In short it gives the player an Option. And while currently DST isn’t structured like that.. I would LIKE for Klei to add a Progressively scaling RogueLike Mode that did this.

But before we can even reach that point: Bosses in the way their currently designed need to be brought down a peg or two by being less difficult on lower player counts- Or better yet, just Reworked entirely with new 2024 development ideas that just wasn’t thought of or maybe even possible when they were originally implemented.

AG Rework is an example of a bad outdated boss that got updated to be more fun.

[Ridley]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

1- Enemies are scaled with the intention that multiple players are fighting them, and therefore take significantly longer time fighting if your playing without other players- rather it’s gathering more resources to cheese the fight, or just taking a lot longer than 6 players with Hambats going ham on a boss- It’s annoying & it’s boring.

I feel like this pertains to the raid bosses almost exclusively. Even then, CC and FW don't have a crazy amount of health like Dragonfly, BQ, CrabKing, and Toadstool. Those four are not exactly fan favourites.

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Endless Minion spam, which can overwhelm a solo player if not dealt with promptly.. And the second equally unfair thing in addition to endless Minion Spam- Behavior patterns the player wasn’t expecting/wasn’t prepared for- Such as when this thing gets a nastier look and begins swooping after you at a directional angle 5 or 6 times in a row while also still spitting out the minions you’ll need to keep dealing with.

They want to make bosses that give you a reason to fight together. I do wish this was handled differently rather than Bee Queen pumping bees out faster than I can kill them. I like that Dragonfly can get stunned and drop scales if it takes too much damage. If bosses changed their behaviour and dropped more quantities of loot when damage thresholds set only for coordinated groups are reached, then I think raid bosses would be a better experience for all players.

Oh, and just let Klaus handle Twins of Terror for you in the meantime. You can get an easy Shield of Terror while trading antler keys for gems.

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3- Boss fights in DST usually reward the player with gear that makes staying alive even easier in a game that the player wants to actively be challenged by.

True, but so does old DS. You are rewarded luxury for passing a benchmark.

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What is the point of a super late game Armored Bearger Bin that slows food spoilage If Bee Queens bundling Wraps fully prevents food spoilage?

I don't like dumping all my food on the floor to use/see it. One Polar Bearger Bin also holds more crock pot recipes than one bundling wrap. It can also hold things like Jelly Beans for quick access.

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and the thing I hate most about boss fights- once you do them once and get the rewards for doing them, you’ve pretty much “Done” them, and don’t really need to interact with that content anymore beyond personal enjoyment of the fight and it’s mechanics.

I get intrinsic value out of some bosses because I like becoming better at the fight. It is easy to track if you are getting better because you start using less resources to win. For me, the personal enjoyment of various things in DST is the whole reason I play. I don't need to keep killing Klaus. I just enjoy the loot pulls. I hunt Dragonfly over Koalefants because it is more engaging to me.

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Why can’t the mechanics of said FrostJaw fight be implemented Elsewhere? Such as for example turning the Rocky Biome into frozen Ice sheets during Winters or something?

Good idea. I favour more world changes.

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My point is that boss fights limit the rest of the games creativity…

This isn't the takeaway I understood. My perspective from this is that various bosses could use improvements and biome changes would be great.

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For me this is CrabKing, this guy probably shouldn’t heal itself at all to be honest, the rewards you get from killing it absolutely suck, and I only plan to EVER interact with it to complete pearls dumb quest & get the CC tribute pieces.

All my homies hate CrabKing. I think his healing should start weak and ramp up in power, but you can reset it by interrupting him like Antlion. 

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I mean even Solo DS EVENTUALLY at some point had to get different DLCs with new worlds, seasons & gameplay mechanics.

I feel like the ground work is being laid with the rifts. If we keep asking for ROG like changes then I am sure Klei will eventually accommodate.

[HowlVoid]

Funny enough I thought skill trees made the game more solo friendly.(for me)

Characters can be made more roundabout with added combat/survival skills that allows every character to do a little of everything. I don't see anyone talk about it in this way but yeah, skill trees are kinda the solo mode Ive kinda wanted. (Though if Klei wanted to custom tailor worlds to solo I wouldn't say no to that too)

Edited January 8 by HowlVoid

[Yuuko]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Don’t Starve was my first introduction to the game genre that is RogueLite, and Generally Speaking RogueLites are brutal, uncompromising, unforgiving and only get harder as you progress through them.

 

That is not true.  Generally speaking Roguelikes feature procedurally generated worlds with a game play loop that is focused on the life cycle of the character.  They live, they die, the world restarts.

Multiplayer roguelikes are a bit different b/c they often take death down a peg to allow the world to continue.  How each game does it is a bit different, but the death and cycle of the world usually stops working when the game is about more than 1 player.

Difficulty is its own vector.  Some roguelikes have heavy meta progression where you can die a bunch and get powered up to clear through content relatively easily, while others have very flat progression where you may start with everything you ever get to clear the game with, and others have an in-game progression where as you fight things you level up and get stronger to move on to the next task, possibly out-scaling the entire world depending on the design and what loopholes they can exploit.

The word "uncompromising" is overused and often misused on these forums, but the textbook definition is something that definitely applies to roguelikes.  Uncompromising does not mean difficult!  It means ridged and uncaring.  The game lets you challenge dfly at any time whether you're ready for it or not.  The game is uncompromising b/c if you challenge it and you're not ready you will be toasted alive.  However nothing says you cannot defeat the boss, even easily if you have the right stuff for it.

Nothing about it being a roguelike means a boss cannot reward you for defeating it, or that some rewards cannot make certain parts of the game easier.  I don't think that is a good rule to try to apply to any game.

[BalkanCockroach]

44 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Those four are not exactly fan favourites.

Dragonfly i actually like, the loot is worth it foe sure and i just use walls. It taking 2 and a half to days kill is eh but honestly it's not that bad.

44 minutes ago, Ridley said:

CC

CC has more health than dragonfly. Beequeen too, but sure as heck don't feel like it.

Edited January 8 by BalkanCockroach

[grm9]

31 minutes ago, Ridley said:

I think his healing should start weak and ramp up in power, but you can reset it by interrupting him like Antlion

you can already interrupt it when playing solo without any minions even if he's pearled   

Edited January 8 by grm9

[BalkanCockroach]

34 minutes ago, Ridley said:

feel like this pertains to the raid bosses almost exclusively

Yes it dose. That's why klei's last bosses arent tough as nails raidbosses.