Why I think boss fights are “Bad”

[grm9]

57 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

If you only play wilson, you can place 5 flingos in a boat + 2 masts on a corner of the ocean next to bee queen and 9 un-fertilized grass tufts. The flingos will try to hit the grass but miss, so it will shoot indefinetely. Then just lure beequeen there and she will keep getting frozen, so you just hold F

You can also just make catapults and her bees won't stand a chance

For fuelweaver, just place 2 lureplants and catapults/houndius shootius(since you probably already killed deerclops and ancient guardian) and he'll die in 1 day and a half

so the fights are easy if you use inefficient strats that require a lot of time and are uninteresting

57 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Also, fuelweaver drops are not that good imo

bone armor also allows you to have the highest dps since no stagger animation and no need to go away to kite, bone helm allows you to go through ruins anytime since ruins nightmares are passive too, thurible allows you to use reanimated skeleton instead of bearger during winter and spring when he sleeps

57 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

You can also just kill klaus and deconstruct her crown for 4 royal jelly (12 jelly beans). You can also get the blueprint from him if you don't wanna fight her since klaus is easier, just walking cane + road is enough

you can dodge all of klaus' attacks without speed boosts and relying on luck is bad

57 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Also there is no reason to get the bundling wrap. Just use gift wraps and hace winters feast activated

just disable temperature, hunger and darkness damage and nightmares and turn on reduced damage in settings

57 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

The only reason you would kill him is to resset the ruins

having fun by fighting him without cheese?

57 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Boss fights are all perfect

not all, BQ and FW are good but not because of the reasons that you've named   

Edited January 15 by grm9

[Swiyss]

Just now, grm9 said:

so the fights are easy if you use inefficient strats that require a lot of time and are uninteresting

They are interesting to me. I actually think is very fun and smart to find different approaches for the same goal, with one being better than the other. That what gives the game creativity. It's like redstone in minecraft. If you think they should patch cheese strats you're making the game worse with your opinion. Also the time spent with these strats are the same time spent killing the bosses, but it is repeatable since you only need the build the setup once, so it saves time in the long run.

 

5 minutes ago, grm9 said:

maxwell, bone armor also allows you to have the highest dps since no stagger animation and no need to go away to kite, bone helm allows you to go through ruins anytime since ruins nightmares are passive too, thurible allows you to use reanimated skeleton instead of bearger during winter and spring when he sleeps

Ok, you mentioned maxwell, so why not use him for wood gathering outside of autumn and summer LOL. Why not use woodie. Wx allows you to go through ruins AND not care about robots, and every single smart character can just wait nightmare phase to end, I don't get your point here haha. Thurible is useless. Reanimated skeleton is only good for rot, but juicy berries and stone fruits are cheaper and better. You can negate the dark with an enlightenment crown, so lightbulbs from him are useless.

 

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you can dodge all of klaus' attacks without speed boosts and relying on luck is bad

I don't think you can dodge chomp attack without a setup first. And placing turf on the ground is as easy as it gets, it's a better setup alternative than anything else since it's cheap and you get 4 per craft. Heck, he even spawns next to reads most of the time. Relying on luck is not bad because we're all already killing him on spawn for krampus sack anyways, and the drop is luxury, same as jellybeans and bundle wraps, those are all unnecessary for gameplay to a point it doesn't affect it that much in the early game, only late game. And it is still not that necessary late game, only for wormwood or like rarely walter.

 

16 minutes ago, grm9 said:

just disable temperature, hunger and darkness damage and nightmares and turn on reduced damage in settings

Changes shouldn't be made considering altering the santand dst experience through the game settings you dummy. You sound like a troll desperate to be right.

 

17 minutes ago, grm9 said:

having fun by fighting him without cheese?

Yeah I had my fun the first 50 times. Then it just gets exausting, same as antlion. My suggestion is in the top comment ^^

19 minutes ago, grm9 said:

not all, BQ and FW are good but not because of the reasons that you've named

All boss fights are perfect. I don't have any complaind about them mechanically, I only think the drops could be more interesting. The game only incentivises megabasing if you wanna kill them again, and not progress. Game's progress is starting to get better but it is still bad because of boss loot.

[grm9]

Just now, Swiyss said:

They are interesting to me. I actually think is very fun and smart to find different approaches for the same goal, with one being better than the other. That what gives the game creativity. It's like redstone in minecraft. If you think they should patch cheese strats you're making the game worse with your opinion. Also the time spent with these strats are the same time spent killing the bosses, but it is repeatable since you only need the build the setup once, so it saves time in the long run

i don't want them to remove those strats, but saying that a boss is easy when using inefficient strats that require a lot of time to make the fight easy doesn't make sense

2 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Ok, you mentioned maxwell, so why not use him for wood gathering outside of autumn and summer LOL

less efficient most likely since reanimated skeleton destroys trees when stepping onto them instantly, you can also use thurible as any character

3 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Why not use woodie

less efficient than maxwell

3 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Wx allows you to go through ruins AND not care about robots

everyone else only miss out on 1 statue in case of 5 statues 4 lights setpiece or 2 statues in case of 8 statues setpiece if they don't tank a few shots from bishops while mining those statues and they don't aggro on maxwell's clones

4 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I don't think you can dodge chomp attack without a setup first

you can if you just don't attack him after the second double hit after a cast

5 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

And placing turf on the ground is as easy as it gets, it's a better setup alternative than anything else since it's cheap and you get 4 per craft

it isn't since it requires more time than fighting him without speedboosts

5 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Relying on luck is not bad because we're all already killing him on spawn for krampus sack anyways, and the drop is luxury, same as jellybeans and bundle wraps, those are all unnecessary for gameplay to a point it doesn't affect it that much in the early game, only late game

it is bad because you'll need to kill BQ if the stuff that you expected to drop from the sack doesn't get dropped, it's fine to use that as an opportunity to not kill BQ but it's bad to rely on that

9 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

same as jellybeans and bundle wraps, those are all unnecessary for gameplay to a point it doesn't affect it that much in the early game, only late game

playing the game isn't necessary, you can live infinitely without killing any bosses

10 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Changes shouldn't be made considering altering the santand dst experience through the game settings you dummy. You sound like a troll desperate to be right

you suggested to change settings to turn on winter's feast, are you a dummy and a desperate troll then?

10 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Yeah I had my fun the first 50 times

would suggest doing it as different characters using different strats e.g. no weather pains or possibly no lazy explorer purely for challenge if you didn't yet

11 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

All boss fights are perfect

apparently CK with default damage multiplier solo is an enjoyable fight or twins are a hard and fun fight then?

12 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

The game only incentivises megabasing if you wanna kill them again, and not progress

sentence doesn't make sense

19 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

every single smart character can just wait nightmare phase to end, I don't get your point here haha

waiting is a waste of time

[Swiyss]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i don't want them to remove those strats, but saying that a boss is easy when using inefficient strats that require a lot of time to make the fight easy doesn't make sense

It's in the game? Yes

Doesn't use glitches and it is intended mehanically? Yes

It makes the boss easier? Yes

It's more fulfilling than using 2972628 pan flutes with wolfgang? Yes

It's more efficient? Yes

So it's better.

Klei has a problem :

Fight is boring to grind after already being experienced on it IMO. And we knew this issue since dst launch but they refuse to fix it. So we develop ways to counter it using in-game mechanics and strategies. Isn't it amazing? For me the fight without cheese is very challenging, but shouldn't be removed or made it easier. But there are strategies to kill it easier, so I'll use them whenever I feel like it. Sometimes I just wanna fight fuelweaver regularly, actually every first kill in the world is always legit. Then after I feel like I'm in the late game and I don't wanna keep fighting like that, I just create or use alternatives with cheeses, and they are super fun.

12 minutes ago, grm9 said:

less efficient most likely since reanimated skeleton destroys trees when stepping onto them instantly, you can also use thurible as any character

You can plan ahead bearger as any character and it's still better then reanimated skeleton because it dugs stumps. Also, you can build pig houses and befriend them at any time to take down a whole forest, just tank the treeguards. Also, all of that is behind not killing of the hardest bosses in the game. It is not more efficient period. You can use bearger in winter and spring, just know how to manage his yawn timer, I do it all the time.

 

17 minutes ago, grm9 said:

less efficient than maxwell

But that was not my point. My point was that you mentioned maxwell is a good alternative for using the bone helm. Yeah, the only alternative. I think the hat should be great on all characters but better in Maxwell's hand, not bad in every character and ONLY useful in Maxwell's hand which is the current situation.

 

20 minutes ago, grm9 said:

everyone else only miss out on 1 statue in case of 5 statues 4 lights setpiece or 2 statues in case of 8 statues setpiece if they don't tank a few shots from bishops while mining those statues and they don't aggro on maxwell's clones

Yeah sure, when I'm playing anything but wx I do that, but he still takes so many aspects of rushing the ruins like a king that it is simply not worth it. By experience I can mine every single statue and pseudoscience station, hammer every single monkey pod and CLEAN UP everything (I leave robots for summer where I come back to resset it), kill daywalker and leave before day 16.

24 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you can if you just don't attack him after the second double hit after a cast

So.. making the fight last longer? Sometimes I even TANK him just to not take too long. But most of the time I kite him perfectly, doing no hit kills consistently. My point still stands, it is a fun, easy and useful fight. The drops are great too, but most other boss drops are very forgiving.

 

27 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it isn't since it requires more time than fighting him without speedboosts

The time you spend not hitting him is countered by the seconds it takes to dig ground up and place cobble, the extra hits you get later could expose you to BS attacks, I know that from experience. Also as I mentioned he almost always spawns next to a road. Only 8 cobble is enough, almost NO rocks and flint are used, not enough to justify going out of your way to get more. I guarantee you that perfectly 5-hitting him with animation cancelling and kiting with a walking cane and a movespeed bonus is the fastest you'll kill him. Fighting without a movespeed bonus it's just asking to risk getting hit multiple times since this strat is not reliable. It's only a good alternative if you somehow didn't get a walking cane by then. It is definitely not the most efficient way to kill him since you need the walking cane to travel better ANYWAYS. And I play wormwood or wx anyways so I always have the movespeed to not need any roads or cobble by then. And those are close to the best characters in the game.

I guess you play max, well to that I say that I'm sorry for your pain because this character instantly got nerfed with rift stuff. He couldn't even enjoy his prime time. Shadow stuff is redundant early game and very bad to the point that a wolfgang with lunar affinity does more than you, woodie can gather almost as fast as you, and wicker books are all useless, they are simple luxury things that don't have much of a play outside of 1 or 2 specific strategies that can be done just by picking her and switching to ANY other character. If max could counter charlie then I guess he would be a great pick, that's why I have a post suggesting making the bone helm see through darkness.

41 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it is bad because you'll need to kill BQ if the stuff that you expected to drop from the sack doesn't get dropped, it's fine to use that as an opportunity to not kill BQ but it's bad to rely on that

I rely on that, and that's not bad to me since it's a very common drop actually. And as I said, her drops are all redundant and insignificant to my gameplay as they don't affect me in any way shape or form.

 

43 minutes ago, grm9 said:

playing the game isn't necessary, you can live infinitely without killing any bosses

My objective when playing the game is to do everything the game has to offer. And later have a nice fruitful and wonderful base building experience (even though I think that could get some improvements down the line, it's the only late game option)

 

45 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you suggested to change settings to turn on winter's feast, are you a dummy and a desperate troll then?

I'm talking for everyone that thinks that's ok for them. There are people who claim they killed cc before day 30 but they altered meteors and made the world smaller, so I guess if you want the best way to do something be mindful that this option exists. I personally never enable it outside of christmas and I think it's the same as cheating. I can kill CC without bee queen drops and it doesn't affect my gameplay as I stated it. I even think the bundling wraps are better, I constantly farm them late game because I have some skins on it, it's the only reason I kill her, and most of the time it's after day 100 or so.

 

49 minutes ago, grm9 said:

would suggest doing it as different characters using different strats e.g. no weather pains or possibly no lazy explorer purely for challenge if you didn't yet

You can trust my word I have. Every single character expect winona, warly and wortox, although I use Winona's catapult very often. Yeah it's pretty great you know, as I said I had my fun, but after a while you just can't bother anymore. I like that the thurible makes so bone prison isn't casted, but that is as far as replayability goes in this game.

 

52 minutes ago, grm9 said:

apparently CK with default damage multiplier solo is an enjoyable fight or twins are a hard and fun fight then?

Yes. I enjoyed the first time I did it, I felt super accomplished. In all my worlds with each character, it always feels great to do it. I only felt a little frustrated when monkeys came in the middle of the fight twice, and I had to abandon the fight. Besides that, the fight itself is very enjoyable. Twins is hard imo, it's just a skill diff, although I died a lot, it's a very fun fight too, but very unnecessary in my book.

 

55 minutes ago, grm9 said:

sentence doesn't make sense

Yeah my bad I was the dummy here, I knew it was wrong but couldn't bother fixing it and I thought you would get it. I mean that the only reason you would kill bosses again is to get loot for megabasing, and not progress, so I think that's a failed design.

[grm9]

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

It's more fulfilling than using 2972628 pan flutes with wolfgang? Yes

what do you mean as "fulfilling"? there are much more ways to kill BQ instead of only pan flutes, fire and flingos

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

It's more efficient? Yes

it's definitely cheaper at least as maxwell since you only need 40 cactus and 10-20 nf if we're talking about killing it for the first time in a world in first autumn, not setting up a farm, wendy and wickerbottom methods are probably more efficient too

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Fight is boring to grind after already being experienced on it IMO. And we knew this issue since dst launch but they refuse to fix it. So we develop ways to counter it using in-game mechanics and strategies. Isn't it amazing? For me the fight without cheese is very challenging, but shouldn't be removed or made it easier. But there are strategies to kill it easier, so I'll use them whenever I feel like it. Sometimes I just wanna fight fuelweaver regularly, actually every first kill in the world is always legit. Then after I feel like I'm in the late game and I don't wanna keep fighting like that, I just create or use alternatives with cheeses, and they are super fun

i wasn't talking about this, i was saying that it doesn't make sense to say that a boss is easy when using inefficient methods to make the fight easy

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

You can plan ahead bearger as any character and it's still better then reanimated skeleton because it dugs stumps

you might end up chopping trees more often than once in 45 days and thurible is a byproduct of getting bone helm and bone armor so it doesn't have a price and you can get it much earlier than bearger although tbh you probably wouldn't need to chop a lot of trees before bearger

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Also, you can build pig houses and befriend them at any time to take down a whole forest

still probably slower

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

But that was not my point. My point was that you mentioned maxwell is a good alternative for using the bone helm. Yeah, the only alternative. I think the hat should be great on all characters but better in Maxwell's hand, not bad in every character and ONLY useful in Maxwell's hand which is the current situation

alternative means something you could replace something else with, you can't replace maxwell with bone helm or bone helm with maxwell, i meant that maxwell is better than woodie even without bone helm

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Yeah sure, when I'm playing anything but wx I do that, but he still takes so many aspects of rushing the ruins like a king that it is simply not worth it. By experience I can mine every single statue and pseudoscience station, hammer every single monkey pod and CLEAN UP everything (I leave robots for summer where I come back to resset it), kill daywalker and leave before day 16

it's still faster as example since clones mine statues and you don't need to kill anything other than AG because loot isn't worth it, i see no need to hammer monkey huts since they'll respawn after you kill FW iirc so it's better to put fences there and you don't need anything other than staves and amulets from ruins when using beefalo but a lot of people don't ig

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

So.. making the fight last longer? Sometimes I even TANK him just to not take too long. But most of the time I kite him perfectly, doing no hit kills consistently. My point still stands, it is a fun, easy and useful fight. The drops are great too, but most other boss drops are very forgiving

did you mean forgettable instead of forgiving? Forgiving is the opposite of punishing, forgettable is something that can be easily accidentally forgotten, that makes the fight longer but makes the preparation time shorter

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

The time you spend not hitting him is countered by the seconds it takes to dig ground up and place cobble, the extra hits you get later could expose you to BS attacks, I know that from experience. Also as I mentioned he almost always spawns next to a road. Only 8 cobble is enough, almost NO rocks and flint are used, not enough to justify going out of your way to get more. I guarantee you that perfectly 5-hitting him with animation cancelling and kiting with a walking cane and a movespeed bonus is the fastest you'll kill him. Fighting without a movespeed bonus it's just asking to risk getting hit multiple times since this strat is not reliable. It's only a good alternative if you somehow didn't get a walking cane by then. It is definitely not the most efficient way to kill him since you need the walking cane to travel better ANYWAYS

no speedboost hitless klaus is consistent, you could use a walking cane if you have it but why get a road, you could also not get a walking cane because beefalo, it's funny to say that getting a road is faster than not getting a road, offtopic but do you also think that the best strat for a winter start klaus speedrun would be to make a road and get a cane?

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

And I play wormwood or wx anyways so I always have the movespeed to not need any roads or cobble by then. And those are close to the best characters in the game

they aren't the best for anything because beefalo is faster than them and they have no perks for getting resources and they're worse at fighting than other characters

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I guess you play max, well to that I say that I'm sorry for your pain because this character instantly got nerfed with rift stuff. He couldn't even enjoy his prime time. Shadow stuff is redundant early game and very bad to the point that a wolfgang with lunar affinity does more than you, woodie can gather almost as fast as you, and wicker books are all useless, they are simple luxury things that don't have much of a play outside of 1 or 2 specific strategies that can be done just by picking her and switching to ANY other character. If max could counter charlie then I guess he would be a great pick, that's why I have a post suggesting making the bone helm see through darkness

you can still use the clones efficiently against all the mutated bosses too and he's better than woodie at resource gathering and he has some strats for bosses that wolfgang doesn't and he can benefit from ornery beefalo so you don't need to constantly dismount and mount back up when you want to hit something and i don't use books since i play solo and don't waste time on getting them but iirc rain book can turn off frog rain, why would being able to not get light bulbs once in 10 days be better than nearly equivalent damage to ham bat wolfgang and the fastest way to get resources other than bearger and reanimated skeleton

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I rely on that, and that's not bad to me since it's a very common drop actually. And as I said, her drops are all redundant and insignificant to my gameplay as they don't affect me in any way shape or form

getting bundling wrap blueprint isn't common because there's a 50% chance for a blueprint to be in the sack and the chance of any specific blueprint being there is 12.5% iirc

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

My objective when playing the game is to do everything the game has to offer

then why are you suggesting to not kill BQ and rely on getting it's loot from klaus instead

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I'm talking for everyone that thinks that's ok for them. There are people who claim they killed cc before day 30 but they altered meteors and made the world smaller, so I guess if you want the best way to do something be mindful that this option exists. I personally never enable it outside of christmas and I think it's the same as cheating. I can kill CC without bee queen drops and it doesn't affect my gameplay as I stated it. I even think the bundling wraps are better, I constantly farm them late game because I have some skins on it, it's the only reason I kill her, and most of the time it's after day 100 or so

why consider it as an option if you consider it as cheating and don't do it

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Yes. I enjoyed the first time I did it, I felt super accomplished. In all my worlds with each character, it always feels great to do it. I only felt a little frustrated when monkeys came in the middle of the fight twice, and I had to abandon the fight. Besides that, the fight itself is very enjoyable

which method are you using?

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Twins is hard imo, it's just a skill diff, although I died a lot, it's a very fun fight too, but very unnecessary in my book

twins are boring because you dodge the one attack that they have by moving to the side multiple times and that's it unless you don't separate them and in this case you could have one twin charging at you during the entirety of the fight if they end up getting synced that way, there's nothing skilful in separating twins and killing them and not separating them requires a ton of time and still dodging the same one attack during the entire fight and idk if you can even deal damage to them while killing minions if both of them are spawning minions at the same time and you have x1 damage multiplier

39 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Yeah my bad I was the dummy here, I knew it was wrong but couldn't bother fixing it and I thought you would get it. I mean that the only reason you would kill bosses again is to get loot for megabasing, and not progress, so I think that's a failed design

it'd be odd for CC to require killing CK thrice or something of that sort and i wouldn't want that

Edited January 15 by grm9

[Swiyss]

31 minutes ago, grm9 said:

what do you mean as "fulfilling"? there are much more ways to kill BQ instead of only pan flutes, fire and flingos

Yeah, and cheesing it feels so much better than actually fighting her alone, however I try to fight her like that with wolfgang everytime I create a new world, or tank her with abigail and marble suits, just so I can experience both worlds. But you know what's even better than that? Playing with 1 or 2 friends and killing her together.

36 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it's definitely cheaper at least as maxwell since you only need 40 cactus and 10-20 nf if we're talking about killing it for the first time in a world in first autumn, not setting up a farm, wendy and wickerbottom methods are probably more efficient too

So, I agree, and every other comment that I won't respond to, I agree.

44 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you mean forgettable instead of forgiving? Forgiving is the opposite of punishing, forgettable is something that can be easily accidentally forgotten, that makes the fight longer but makes the preparation time shorter

Yes

 

37 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i wasn't talking about this, i was saying that it doesn't make sense to say that a boss is easy when using inefficient methods to make the fight easy

Ok, taking into consideration that the fight is being played the way the game is intended to be, the fight has flaws. And again, they exist since dst release so it's redundant to speak about it since they probably won't change much. And I would say yes, the fight is hard at first, if you're playing wilson and only using basic resources. However I think we actually SHOULD consider everything there is in the game to actually make up for it. That's because if we balance the game around bee queen being too hard to fight alone, then it would be too easy together. Same as too cheese it. Either way it's too hard. So what they did with recreating old bosses with rift content is actually a perfect idea and it's the reason this whole thread is not needed. Klei is already trying to fix this.

47 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they aren't the best for anything because beefalo is faster than them and they have no perks for getting resources and they're worse at fighting than other characters

Now I disagree. Wx is the best character in the game. Maxwell is a failed design and it sucks imo. I'll tell you why later.

50 minutes ago, grm9 said:

then why are you suggesting to not kill BQ and rely on getting it's loot from klaus instead

Not kill her right away, but later*

51 minutes ago, grm9 said:

which method are you using?

I turn to wickerbottom, spawn bees from 4 books and take a temperature book so they don't freeze. The fight takes 2 minutes and it's over. I killed him the traditional way with every char already and around 5 times with wendy, besides that I never wanna do that again. But my point still stands. We should still consider cheese strats in balancing the game. If they haven't fixed larvae pathing, then it's for a reason.

[Uedo]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I have no idea why you guys tend to think this thread should be locked, it’s as Simple as boss fights shouldn’t last a laughable 20 seconds in a Group, and a long drug out amount of minutes if done solo.

To be completely fair to the moderators of the forums, apart from the fact they may not realise this thread is just going to be very circular (Mike will never concede, it's his ninja way).
He's kinda right, No one but Mike is being insincere, OP doesn't feel insulted - not seen any really (despite Mike referring to being insulted, he says he isn't now, so it's good).

I'd lock it for being off topic, but he's the OP and he's the one constantly changing the topic.

Is there such thing as a 'mercy' locking? We could go with that, it's getting a bit 'Chris-chan'y. Lock it up and send him back to cwcville!

inb4: 'Chris-chan is an insult' ... She's a goddess and knows mewtwo, I can only humbly reference her.

Edited January 15 by Uedo

[Swiyss]

Yeah. I think that maxwell should be the best character in the game. But the problem I have with him is that he can't see in the dark like wx. I have a world with 758 days on maxwell. And I think he sucks for my playstyle. I hate beefalo taming and I think their design is super flawed. I also don't like shadow stuff thematically, I think it's super cringe this edgy thing. But until we get a skill tree on him I'll never play him again. Having 25% movespeed and full night vision is something I will never come back from, no matter how great playing maxweel is. 

So in my book. Until the skill tree is out, he's a failed design. Shadow affinity is only great after opening rifts. Wicker books are useless as you said. He only works with a beef etc..

[grm9]

13 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Yeah, and cheesing it feels so much better than actually fighting her alone, however I try to fight her like that with wolfgang everytime I create a new world, or tank her with abigail and marble suits, just so I can experience both worlds. But you know what's even better than that? Playing with 1 or 2 friends and killing her together

imo it's more fun to do the fight in any way other than building flingos or a fire farm, doing it with friends is even less fun because you can do it pretty much without a method

14 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Ok, taking into consideration that the fight is being played the way the game is intended to be, the fight has flaws. And again, they exist since dst release so it's redundant to speak about it since they probably won't change much. And I would say yes, the fight is hard at first, if you're playing wilson and only using basic resources. However I think we actually SHOULD consider everything there is in the game to actually make up for it. That's because if we balance the game around bee queen being too hard to fight alone, then it would be too easy together. Same as too cheese it. Either way it's too hard. So what they did with recreating old bosses with rift content is actually a perfect idea and it's the reason this whole thread is not needed. Klei is already trying to fix this

there are only a few methods for all new bosses and all of them are easier than methods for old bosses so they aren't fixing anything, they're making bosses that are like souls bosses, but much easier than most souls bosses and have much less strats than old DST bosses so there's nothing good about them other than loot 

17 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Now I disagree. Wx is the best character in the game. Maxwell is a failed design and it sucks imo. I'll tell you why later

maxwell is better than both if we're talking about killing bosses early or megabasing

17 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I turn to wickerbottom, spawn bees from 4 books and take a temperature book so they don't freeze. The fight takes 2 minutes and it's over. I killed him the traditional way with every char already and around 5 times with wendy, besides that I never wanna do that again. But my point still stands. We should still consider cheese strats in balancing the game. If they haven't fixed larvae pathing, then it's for a reason

what do you consider as the traditional way? I wasn't talking about fixing cheese and glitches, the entire point was that it doesn't make sense to say that bosses are easy when using inefficient strats to make the fight easy even though there are hard and more efficient ways to kill those bosses and it isn't related to fixing cheese and glitches, i've already told you this 4 times by now 

[Uedo]

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

Yeah. I think that maxwell should be the best character in the game. But the problem I have with him is that he can't see in the dark like wx. I have a world with 758 days on maxwell. And I think he sucks for my playstyle. I hate beefalo taming and I think their design is super flawed. I also don't like shadow stuff thematically, I think it's super cringe this edgy thing. But until we get a skill tree on him I'll never play him again. Having 25% movespeed and full night vision is something I will never come back from, no matter how great playing maxweel is. 

So in my book. Until the skill tree is out, he's a failed design. Shadow affinity is only great after opening rifts. Wicker books are useless as you said. He only works with a beef etc..

Hard disagree. I still suck at bosses because of Max's ability to stay safe, the spamability of his minions really doesn't make planar much issue at all tbh, not if you're going to participate in the fight too.

[grm9]

7 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

But the problem I have with him is that he can't see in the dark like wx

use map, you can see most things on the map and bosses don't require you to fight them in the dark except AG and werepig, but werepig glows in the dark and you can use lantern while on a beefalo

7 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I have a world with 758 days on maxwell

i have a 57 days world as maxwell and FW, CC, klaus, dfly, bq, nightmare werepig, AG, deerclops, moose goose, shadow pieces, CK and eye of terror are dead in it, so maxwell is probably efficient, considering that was the second time i've tried to kill all bosses as fast as i can

Edited January 15 by grm9

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

imo it's more fun to do the fight in any way other than building flingos or a fire farm, doing it with friends is even less fun because you can do it pretty much without a method

there are only a few methods for all new bosses and all of them are easier than methods for old bosses so they aren't fixing anything, they're making bosses that are like souls bosses, but much easier than most souls bosses and have much less strats than old DST bosses so there's nothing good about them other than loot 

maxwell is better than both if we're talking about killing bosses early or megabasing

what do you consider as the traditional way? I wasn't talking about fixing cheese and glitches, the entire point was that it doesn't make sense to say that bosses are easy when using inefficient strats to make the fight easy even though there are hard and more efficient ways to kill those bosses and it isn't related to fixing cheese and glitches, i've already told you this 4 times by now 

Bosses are hard then. But easy when cheesed.

Loot is trash too.

2 minutes ago, Uedo said:

Hard disagree. I still suck at bosses because of Max's ability to stay safe, the spamability of his minions really doesn't make planar much issue at all tbh, not if you're going to participate in the fight too.

His skill tree should be a banger.

[Uedo]

2 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Bosses are hard then. But easy when cheesed.

Loot is trash too.

His skill tree should be a banger.

I hope so! I stopped playing him when WW got his skill-tree, strong feeling he'll be last just because of balancing.

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

use map, you can see most things on the map and bosses don't require you to fight them in the dark except AG and werepig, but werepig glows in the dark and you can use lantern while on a beefalo

Try it. Pick wx, put a night vision circuit and use a mod to remove moggle filtering. I like it man, what can I do, it's like playing in the day constantly, it's specially great in the caves. And now I can't go back. The mod is client so I don't feel like I'm cheating as opposed to more inventory slots or whatever. 

[Uedo]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i have a 57 days world as maxwell and FW, CC, klaus, dfly, bq, nightmare werepig, AG, deerclops, moose goose, CK and eye of terror are dead in it, so maxwell is probably efficient, considering that was the second time i've tried to kill all bosses as fast as i can

There's me at day 400 and something, no boss kill cause I want my lush carpet to have a pretty border D:

[Swiyss]

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

have a 57 days world as maxwell and FW, CC, klaus, dfly, bq, nightmare werepig, AG, deerclops and eye of terror are dead in it, so maxwell is probably efficient, considering that was the second time i've tried to kill all bosses as fast as i can

I killed all of them as wes by day 89 except the twins. As maxwell I never tried to rush things, I always took it slower for some reason, but yeah he should be pretty fast.

Edited January 15 by Swiyss

[grm9]

Just now, Swiyss said:

The mod is client so I don't feel like I'm cheating as opposed to more inventory slots or whatever.

there's client side full map reveal and client side night vision so client side doesn't mean that a mod isn't cheaty, just keep in that mind, even though replacing filters is obviously less cheaty

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

I killed all of them as wes by day 89 expect the twins

first winter CC? You would've needed to wait for day 91 for crystal deerclops otherwise

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

there's client side full map reveal and client side night vision so client side doesn't mean that a mod isn't cheaty, just keep in that mind, even though replacing filters is obviously less cheaty

I have like 5 client side mods. I don't even like the status one because it shows temperature, and I think that's cheating. Boss health is cheating to me too. So in my head I'm fine.

I just think that moggles filter is kinda ******** on wx, it doesn't make sense, he's not wearing moggles neither is an animal, he's a robot.

So in my head he should be able to see clearly, and I think that's realistic enough for me to consider it.

I might change playstyle completely and turn back to max again after the skill tree tho, so there's that too.

[MondayNight]

7 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I don't even like the status one because it shows temperature, and I think that's cheating. Boss health is cheating to me too.

So some QoL mods (in the vein of default RTS-like panels) akin Statuses are "cheating" but doing AFw with Lureplants and Catas/Shootius while character sits outside arena represents "interesting, very fun and smart" strats? Hmm..

[Just Ragnar]

7 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

So some QoL mods (in the vein of default RTS-like panels) akin Statuses are "cheating" but doing AFw with Lureplants and Catas/Shootius while character sits outside arena represents "interesting, very fun and smart" strats? Hmm..

It's more of what can be done in vanilla or not.

[Swiyss]

21 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

So some QoL mods (in the vein of default RTS-like panels) akin Statuses are "cheating" but doing AFw with Lureplants and Catas/Shootius while character sits outside arena represents "interesting, very fun and smart" strats? Hmm..

Yes.

Temperature is already visible in game when you're close to freezing/overheating. And boss health takes away the surprise you get when the boss falls. It feels extremely organic and more rewarding to not know their hp.

Something that started happening to me when I deactivated the mods 2 years ago is that I started predicting if the boss is low based on my weapon and the time spent fighting. It's way more satisfying to guess when the boss will die rather than just knowing it.

Edited January 15 by Swiyss

[MondayNight]

21 hours ago, ShyRasan123 said:

It's more of what can be done in vanilla or not.

From all the Combined Status info, temperature is the thing I for one totally ignore. Basic knowledge of the game suffices: is last night of Autumn? You can freeze as a default character. Is Winter? You will freeze. Is your Thermal yellow in winter? Light up some tree with it at its footing till trunk burned completely and Thermal emits light, your character also warmed in the process. Till when should be warmed? Until margins of screen radiate their specific yellow, almost-overheating effect. Wet in 1/2 of Spring, the 1st half? You'll freeze. Light up a tree or some weeds. Summer? You will overheat, go in Caves or light an Endo till your thermal is bright blue. Summon a Polar Light if respective Staff is available. Seasonal fishes? Garbage tier thermal-regulator source if not Wurt; and even then, thermal + fridge comes on top. Precise temperature knowledge is useful solely for min-max people that make a math sheet out of the game - "try-hards". Plus is clearly overrated. Average player, even advanced experienced ones that don't care about uber-efficiency and the morphing of DST into math sheets, don't need precise temperature knowledge and won't hurt them otherwise. Relative entertainment is what matters. I for one came from an RTS background (my favorite game genre) so mini-map and visible statuses are a must. In terms of "cheating" is only a matter of mouse-over stats and you see them - but still, small cheating. I prefer to jump that part and enjoy a pseudo-RTS experience of sorts. You consider that more cheating than "cheesing" bosses? Irrelevant: we're in no competition. Even if we play pubs together by chance, knowing precise temperature will award me or you no prize or palpable advantage. But "cheesing" bosses? Hmm.

Meanwhile exploiting obvious KLei slip-ups otherwise know as bugs? Ha. Nice try to justify cheating. Also do not mistake this, I for one use these "cheese" strats too, yet am not deluding myself they aren't cheats. They certainly are, I use them, I don't care about "default fairness" since DST is not some ladder boards competitive CS:GO. Do whatever you fancy but at least be sincere with what you're doing: "cheesing" bosses is miles above knowing character/environment temperature in utility terms.

Edited January 16 by MostMerryTomcat
*typo*

[Swiyss]

4 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

From all the Combined Status info, temperature is the one I for one totally ignore. Basic knowledge of the game suffices: is last night of autumn? You can freeze as a default character. Is Winter? You will freeze. Is your Thermal yellow in winter? Light up some tree with it at its footing till burned completely and Thermal emits light, your character also warmed in the process. Till when is warmed? Until margins of screen radiate their specific yellow almost-overheating effect. Wet in 1/2 of Spring, the 1st half? You will freeze. Light up a tree or some weeds. Summer? You will overheat, go in Caves or light an Endo till your thermal is bright blue. Summon a Polar Light if respective Staff is available. Seasonal fishes? Garbage tier thermal-regulator source if not Wurt; and even then, thermal + fridge comes on top. Precise temperature knowledge is useful solely for min-max people that make a math sheet out of the game - "try-hards". Plus is clearly overrated. Average player, even advanced experienced ones that don't care about uber-efficiency and the morphing of DST into math sheets, don't need precise temperature knowledge and won't hurt them otherwise. Relative entertainment is what matters. I for one came from a RTS background (my favorite game genre) so mini-map and visible statuses are a must. In terms of "cheating" is only a matter of mouse-over stats and you see them - but still, small cheating. I prefer to jump that part and enjoy a pseudo-RTS experience of sorts. You consider that more cheating than "cheesing" bosses? Irrelevant: we're in no competition. Even if we play pubs together by chance, knowing precise temperature will award me or you no prize or palpable advantage. But "cheesing" bosses? Hmm.

Meanwhile exploiting obvious KLei slip-ups otherwise know as bugs? Ha. Nice try to justify cheating. Also do not mistake this, I for one use these "cheese" strats too, yet am not deluding myself they aren't cheats. They certainly are, I use them, I don't care about "default fairness" since DST is not some ladder boards competitive CS:GO. Do whatever you fancy but at least be sincere with what you're doing: "cheesing" bosses is miles above knowing character/environment temperature in utility terms.

Damn. So using a fully working in game mechanic in a place it shouldn't meant to be to my advantage is exploiting a bug in the game, also known as cheating as you say. But adding a new source code that reveals information that shouldn't be available to you isn't.

I already explained why I think removing moggles filter and sanity filter isn't cheating. It's only visual, it's to not give me headaches, make it impossible to see roads in winter or nightmare creatures at day, also in winter. Those things are tolerable in the beginning, but after 10 years of playing this I can't stand it anymore haha. Lunacy in winter while fighting cc is the worst thing ever. It should be an in-game option like distortion or earthquake shake.

You know they haven't added this option because everyone would disable it right?

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

first winter CC? You would've needed to wait for day 91 for crystal deerclops otherwise

I don't like to kill CC first winter. It's pointless in my opinion. A waaay better rush is to do quick ruins rush > Ag > nightmare werepig > bee queen > shadow pieces > dfly > eye of terror > klaus > deerclops > fuelweaver > twins of terror > goose/moose > crab king > celestial champion (if celestial orb even drops) > possesed varg > toadstool > antlion > bearger > armored bearger > sharkjaw > malbatross > crystal deerclops. Then the smaller giants if you count them and finally misery for multiplying shroom skin to light my base. That's pretty much it.

[grm9]

20 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I don't like to kill CC first winter. It's pointless in my opinion. A waaay better rush is to do quick ruins rush > Ag > nightmare werepig > bee queen > shadow pieces > dfly > eye of terror > klaus > deerclops > fuelweaver > twins of terror > goose/moose > crab king > celestial champion (if celestial orb even drops) > possesed varg > toadstool > antlion > bearger > armored bearger > sharkjaw > malbatross > crystal deerclops. Then the smaller giants if you count them and finally misery for multiplying shroom skin to light my base. That's pretty much it

so how did you kill all bosses on day 89 if you didn't do it during first winter and second winter starts on day 91

[MondayNight]

21 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Temperature is already visible in game when you're close to freezing/overheating.

 

21 hours ago, Swiyss said:

But adding a new source code that reveals information that shouldn't be available to you isn't.

So which is it? A shortcut to eliminate mouse-over (minimal) or some "game breaking" "reveals information that shouldn't be available to you"?

I'll shorten the pointless back-and-forth: is minuscule. Am writing about Status Combined mod. Nothing game-breaking, just convenience.

 

As for the other mod you hinted at, I presume is the Simple Health-bar for bosses one, is of no concern to me. I solely play vanilla pubs, no personal servers whatsoever, hence bringing a server-side mod into discussion is superfluous for me - I can't use it and frankly I don't care about such info. As for:

21 hours ago, Swiyss said:

And boss health takes away the surprise you get when the boss falls. It feels extremely organic and more rewarding to not know their hp.

Something that started happening to me when I deactivated the mods 2 years ago is that I started predicting if the boss is low based on my weapon and the time spent fighting. It's way more satisfying to guess when the boss will die rather than just knowing it.

Is all about relative gambling if not mix-max-ing and morphing game into math sheets. I don't care about math and uber-efficiency as well; so, again, is a superfluous thing to me. Entertainment is king and all revolves around that: being surprised and, certainly, gambling in certain amounts. Is fun, for me at least. So, once more, doesn't really matter for yours truly the knowledge if boss kicks the proverbial bucket now or 1 minute later - am always sufficiently prepared and good enough in my book to prevail in pubs over all bosses at my own pace and goals for respective runs.

Edited January 16 by MostMerryTomcat