Why are some people mad that Willow is a mage now??

[hoppin mandrake]

I think Wagstaff is playing favorites if Willow is bestowed with the power to shoot flames from hands while my man Wilson can just turn rocks into other kinds of rocks.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, hoppin mandrake said:

I think Wagstaff is playing favorites if Willow is bestowed with the power to shoot flames from hands while my man Wilson can just turn rocks into other kinds of rocks.

Wilson is intended to be vanilla.  If you're playing him, that's an active choice you're making.  Like if you play Wes you can't complain that he is weak - that is why you pick him.

But also - Wilson's transmutations are extremely useful mid to late game

AND - I fought hard to get his torch and transmute skills improved.  We did see changes like being able to do hound teeth => bone shard, and gold => nitre.  I can't believe they thought to launch it only the other way like why would I EVER need to make more hounds teeth or gold?? lol

[BB Marioni]

I always wanted her to be a pyromancer so I'm happy with the update. Some skills just needs a bit tweaking, but the idea and design is perfect- fire spells, bernie skills.

[hoppin mandrake]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Wilson is intended to be vanilla.  If you're playing him, that's an active choice you're making.  Like if you play Wes you can't complain that he is weak - that is why you pick him.

But also - Wilson's transmutations are extremely useful mid to late game

AND - I fought hard to get his torch and transmute skills improved.  We did see changes like being able to do hound teeth => bone shard, and gold => nitre.  I can't believe they thought to launch it only the other way like why would I EVER need to make more hounds teeth or gold?? lol

We were talking a bit more on the lore side of things, but yeah if they toned down Willow a bit and maybe added some drawbacks to some of her skills then I might be more interested in playing her. Right now Wigfrid and Willow feel like someone typed in godmode into the console. Willow's downsides (random setting of fires with low sanity) and those of fire itself can now be eliminated (no more spread, loot won't burn) with her and she even has the ability to absorb fire now. She can create dwarf stars and has AOE attacks. It doesn't really feel like she has any drawbacks anymore. Some might find that fun though, and that's okay. Just not for me.

[Asparagazpacho]

Game mechanics wise I can see why they did what they did. I don't think anyone expects Klei to suddenly retcon Willows story they already had planned out. It's sort of grieving a backstory we could've had. Supernatural elements are fine and I didn't mind the Stephen King inspiration but now we've strayed into mahoshojo territory. People noticed it was off or felt out of place - so that has to count for something. Someone compared her current trajectory to Annie from League of Legends and unfortunately I agree.

That being said,

8 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

I’d prefer not going the mage route, ingenuity and duck tape are more flavorful imo

This is an amazing way of putting it and how I feel exactly. My girl has bite!! Shes a survivalist!

[shaurun]

51 minutes ago, hoppin mandrake said:

Willow's downsides (random setting of fires with low sanity) and those of fire itself can now be eliminated (no more spread, loot won't burn) with her and she even has the ability to absorb fire now. She can create dwarf stars and has AOE attacks. It doesn't really feel like she has any drawbacks anymore.

That's true.. She feels like no drawbacks character since she lost her DS random fires on low sanity... I'd like they return this feature of her, anyway she can deal with these random fires, but I assume a lot of players would complain because they are so afraid for their precious alchemy engine.

To me she plays still more difficullt than Maxwell, but much more OP than other characters. I want drawbacks, maybe less OP, and fire+ heat immunity.

[Arde]

Its probably because klei didnt explain where she got these powers from. Its believable that she could do magic but where did she learn it from?

[Antynomity]

12 hours ago, Ohan said:

Im not really too invested in this but imo it just looks so out of place in dst. It looks workshop-y  

Willow burning mobs to death and collecting floating wisps to spew out cold fire in a torrent in front of her to mow things down is just so bizarre..

DST has become a totally different beast.

"But I'm not done yet!"

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Wilson is intended to be vanilla.  If you're playing him, that's an active choice you're making.  Like if you play Wes you can't complain that he is weak - that is why you pick him.

But also - Wilson's transmutations are extremely useful mid to late game

AND - I fought hard to get his torch and transmute skills improved.  We did see changes like being able to do hound teeth => bone shard, and gold => nitre.  I can't believe they thought to launch it only the other way like why would I EVER need to make more hounds teeth or gold?? lol

Just because he's vanilla doesn't mean he's supposed to have the most boring skill tree, vanilla isn't boring, vanilla has a light taste that doesn't overstay it's welcome yet it's appreciated. I don't see anyone appreciating how trash his torch branch is compared to even the new willow lighter that was upgraded.

[-Variant]

3 hours ago, shaurun said:

That's true.. She feels like no drawbacks character since she lost her DS random fires on low sanity... I'd like they return this feature of her, anyway she can deal with these random fires, but I assume a lot of players would complain because they are so afraid for their precious alchemy engine.

Almost every character has had their downside removed to some degree.  Whether the downside be actually removed, or the player having an item/mechanic to instantly negate said characters downside.

On that note, random fires are both the worst designed downside, but also instantly negated by Willow's current perk set. I don't believe that'd make for a fun or interesting downside at all if it were randomly brought back.

[shaurun]

14 minutes ago, -Variant said:

random fires are both the worst designed downside

I would disagree it was really fun in singleplayer. And you have flingos anyway. In DST - you can mitigate fires with other tools filled with water, Whickerbooks, and such. I think people are simply too afraid for the staff they have. I love to lose everything and start from scratch. It makes me better.

[O_Atoba_Azul]

Not mad, just dissapointed.

Ok, to elaborate, character theming issues aside, I feel like it was the easiest approach to do Willow - which is understandable why Klei decided to do it this way - but it's also the most predictable, uninteresting way to do it. Willow could've been so much more interesting than a pyromancer.

[lenship2]

if klei insists for willow to have magic based abilities like that, then i think she should lose 15? sanity per cast to thematically put it on par with other magic methods

[xDarkSoul18x]

They're just negative Nancies. Do people not know the skills are technically optional? You can play without them. They only add, not take. So why complain about something you don't even have to use? But yes, I can totally see her using magic/fire magic. It is the constant after all, everything is warped. 

[Hornete]

21 minutes ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

Do people not know the skills are technically optional? You can play without them. They only add, not take. So why complain about something you don't even have to use?

This is almost always a really reductive thing to say! No matter what topic is being discussed or what stance I'm taking in those topics I always slightly groan to myself when I see the simple take of "Just don't interact with it."

People are passionate about this game, they want to see changes, and content whether artistically, thematically, or mechanically might bother them and they want to see changes they think would be more fitting.

While in pure gameplay Willow's tree is purely an addition, for some (including me), it takes away from the theming with how it was done and implemented. I don't expect massive changes, but I hope no other character is done as much as a disservice in the future once their trees come as long as I felt Willow was!

We're all here to put out feedback on a game we like, no need to shut down the discussion by saying "Just don't use it!"  (And that's not to you specifically)

[WhackE]

42 minutes ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

Do people not know the skills are technically optional?

Do you understand that you're basically saying "Don't like it, don't use it." Which is the single most infuriating thing you can say to someone that cares about game design, and that you're completely missing the point of legitimate criticisms people make.

[Neu7ral]

I am okay with it, however, I understand people might have wanted something more, me personally I wish they explored more of her Scouts side!

But I hope the next survivors skillsets become more what they can do with their resources more than magic oriented abilities.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

They're just negative Nancies. Do people not know the skills are technically optional? You can play without them. They only add, not take. So why complain about something you don't even have to use? But yes, I can totally see her using magic/fire magic. It is the constant after all, everything is warped. 

The entire point of having a skill tree with only a few skill points allowed is to force the player into choosing which path they want to take, which is literal “don’t like it, don’t use it.”

However, when it comes to picking character buffs people are going to expect you to pick the most optimal playstyle choices (this happens so often in Smite that I literally deleted the game due to the toxic behavior of others)

TL:DR how you built your character in Smite, determined how well they would perform, and DST is slowly but steadily headed on that same path. Which means- people might actually kick you out the server if your not using the optimal skill path that’s most commonly used.

I do however think it’s a bit ridiculous that people would be willing to accept what willpw can currently do, if it was reskinned to show her throwing fire crackers or blowing alcohol onto her lighter though, that means they accept the Gameplay, but dislike the presentation of it.

Which means.. If Klei added optional firework skins for her new powers that there would be few complaints about her actual new powers.

Its a case of Bernie & Ashley- They look different, but do the exact same thing.

 

[HowlVoid]

On 12/20/2023 at 1:38 PM, Cheggf said:

I've literally never seen anyone ask for her to be a mage. Every single time I've seen someone discuss Willow's skill tree it's been unanimous that people did not want her to be a mage. 

 

You may have not seen it but there were some people (myself included) who felt willow could be a magic based character. 

And that's not the first time I've seen it discussed on this forum.

On 12/20/2023 at 2:11 PM, Primalflower said:

I've always always always seen people talk about how much willow needed more to do with fire, for the entire 9 damned years i've been here. The skillset accomplished this with flying colors, nigh every interaction that fire has with the environment, willow is adept at using to her advantage.

The way people talk about it gives me the impression that they just don't like the presentation, they wish she would be throwing matches around instead of throwing fire around by itself. I personally find this reasoning to be pitifully little justification to dislike the skill tree if the difference between you liking it and disliking is a mere animation. I think it does a very good job with willow's character.

Hit the nail on the head!

[readkey]

My initial thought about Willow is that she is not magical either, but hey, so is Wickerbottom who is just a librarian in the real world….?

[readkey]

19 hours ago, shaurun said:

That's true.. She feels like no drawbacks character since she lost her DS random fires on low sanity... I'd like they return this feature of her, anyway she can deal with these random fires, but I assume a lot of players would complain because they are so afraid for their precious alchemy engine.

To me she plays still more difficullt than Maxwell, but much more OP than other characters. I want drawbacks, maybe less OP, and fire+ heat immunity.

I actually don’t agree about Willow’s downside because you still get severely punished if you do not keep her warm. You do need to take extra cautious when fighting Klaus and Deerclops.

While I do think some characters’ downsides are now close to non-existent, in a game design perspective, there should be some downsides that are supposed to punish you for being careless, rather than to forbid you from doing something (eg Wigfrid, Wormwood), especially on a new player friendly character like Willow. 

[readkey]

15 hours ago, -Variant said:

Almost every character has had their downside removed to some degree.  Whether the downside be actually removed, or the player having an item/mechanic to instantly negate said characters downside.

On that note, random fires are both the worst designed downside, but also instantly negated by Willow's current perk set. I don't believe that'd make for a fun or interesting downside at all if it were randomly brought back.

Actually Klei always designed characters by having downsides and upsides being countermeasures of each other from the very beginning. It’s just that in the past everyone has only 1-2 perks while now they have plenty, but still remain having 1 downside only.

 

[somethin]

The real current downsides for characters without skill tree is that they do not have a skill tree.
Except Walter, who simply existing is the downside.
(No, I am not mad that he takes the 'range' character slot instead of Wheeler. Totally not biased at all.)

[Monkey Cups]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:12 PM, Mike23Ua said:

And frankly I find the idea of chugging down alcohol and then spitting it out onto her lighter to be hilariously inappropriate for DS.

Firebreathers are a very real thing, and as we already have circus themed characters (Wolfgang) and street performers (Wes) I don't see how that would be out of place at all.

[xDarkSoul18x]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:38 PM, WhackE said:

Do you understand that you're basically saying "Don't like it, don't use it." Which is the single most infuriating thing you can say to someone that cares about game design, and that you're completely missing the point of legitimate criticisms people make.

That wasn't my intent, sorry. Believe me I think there can definitely be changes. My point was mainly that they could make it the best tree in the game and people would STILL find something to complain about or throw some sort of "Whatabout" argument to other areas of the game. I was mainly addressing the people that will complain just for the sake of it. This is my favorite game. Sometimes that passion can lead people to not thinking clearly. I think people are very valid so far in their claims mines was just a more "in general" idk. Like the HP regen perks ain't even a mouse on a wheel imo. If you understand now yeah? 

[Mike23Ua]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:48 AM, Monkey Cups said:

Firebreathers are a very real thing, and as we already have circus themed characters (Wolfgang) and street performers (Wes) I don't see how that would be out of place at all.

Firebreathers maybe real performers, but… your playing a game where your character leaves the real human world and goes to a magical fictional world which grants them supernatural abilities.

Even though Wilson’s Skill tree is a Joke… He Still can craft items out of thin air.

Wormwoods MADE of Magic so he’s exempt from this Exam.

Wolfgang wanted Super inhuman strength, now he can deadlift Train Cars.

My point is that being JUST a Firespitter doesn’t fit the Magical realm the characters get sucked into that enhances thier abilities.

Which Reminds me…

Winona’s in need of some really cool stuffs when she gets her skill tree.