hot takes Your Dont Starve Together Hot Takes

[Sir Noel]

13 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Now that is a hot take. I'm really interested to know why. Personally, I feel Wigfrid's rework was by far the worst.

All of her songs are simultaneously incredibly annoying to get while also being pretty limited in effect. The inspiration mechanic is also kind of annoying to use too, as you can't open a fight with it.

Wigfrid was honestly fine as she was, and the songs were mostly agreed to be an added bonus to an already good character. Inspiration is useful when you can activate it, and most of the songs that matter are not that hard to get. Her rework was almost perfect... and I say almost because the flaws are pretty obvious at this point.

For how hard some of the more useless songs are to get you'd think the obvious best one (healing) would be at least slightly difficult to obtain. If anything the healing song should be the one locked to further progression for how it is clearly the best one, but other Wig mains would probably crucify me for saying that lol

[HowlVoid]

19 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Now that is a hot take. I'm really interested to know why. Personally, I feel Wigfrid's rework was by far the worst.

All of her songs are simultaneously incredibly annoying to get while also being pretty limited in effect. The inspiration mechanic is also kind of annoying to use too, as you can't open a fight with it.

It's a bit of a subjective answer but for me personally the rework didn't focus on Webber themselves enough. I understand they're a follower character at their core but there's only so much followers can do. 

As for the stuff that did get added; switcherdoodles are a pain in the butt to make. They are too expensive and hardly worth ever going for. Pig skin? Bunnymen puff? 4 nitre? Just why. The only good one is nurse spiders but they're a small inconvenience to get on their own (the spider). At least Wigs songs are permanent crafts. They should of been able to craft the dens themselves and get an infinite number of specific spiders because they all die to aoes the same. 

Their tools for controlling the spider's behavior all feel like terrible Band-Aids. It's only dismiss and deaggro them ALL or group them ALL. And yet spiders can still eat all your loot if you're not fast enough, I'm not asking for surgeon like control but spiders should be dismissible into groups like in Pikmin and just wait for a bit in clusters before leaving for their home (and a Pikmin like whistle honestly).

The rework felt like thematic surface level changes. 

There are three significant changes I can think of off the top of my head, but they could of existed outside of the rework.

Unlimited follower time

Cave spiders above ground

Nurse spiders

There's one significant addition the rework introduced.

Nurse spider switcherdoodles. 

There's one thing that should of always existed since the game became multiplayer. (Webber was just an annoying character to play alongside with sometimes as a none webber).

Friendly spiders.

Despite this, I think the rework will be a great foundation for their skill tree. I hope to see some things like:

Reduced switcherdoodle costs; maybe feed them to a queen to get a specific den (or better yet feed the den directly). Some unique additions to Webber themselves. Strength to den decorations and maybe some sort of worker spiders that repairs them overtime that dens with decorations can spawn. Some precision to the shoo box and Webby whistle, where de-aggroing is a short animation and if you hold it you also dismiss the befriended ones. And spiders never eating loot off the ground.

Edited November 3, 2023 by HowlVoid

[Evelo]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:11 PM, b l a n k said:

I dislike the celestial portal, and the fact you can swap your character

I'll just upvote since you took the words right our of my mouth.

My biggest hot take:
People saying "rework" instead of "refresh" drive me absolutely insane. They are not the same!

[WenericMember]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

It's a bit of a subjective answer but for me personally the rework didn't focus on Webber themselves enough. I understand they're a follower character at their core but there's only so much followers can do. 

As for the stuff that did get added; switcherdoodles are a pain in the butt to make. They are too expensive and hardly worth ever going for. Pig skin? Bunnymen puff? 4 nitre? Just why. The only good one is nurse spiders but they're a small inconvenience to get on their own (the spider). At least Wigs songs are permanent crafts. They should of been able to craft the dens themselves and get an infinite number of specific spiders because they all die to aoes the same. 

Their tools for controlling the spider's behavior all feel like terrible Band-Aids. It's only dismiss and deaggro them ALL or group them ALL. And yet spiders can still eat all your loot if you're not fast enough, I'm not asking for surgeon like control but spiders should be dismissible into groups like in Pikmin and just wait for a bit in clusters before leaving for their home (and a Pikmin like whistle honestly).

The rework felt like thematic surface level changes. 

There are three significant changes I can think of off the top of my head, but they could of existed outside of the rework.

Unlimited follower time

Cave spiders above ground

Nurse spiders

There's one significant addition the rework introduced.

Nurse spider switcherdoodles. 

There's one thing that should of always existed since the game became multiplayer. (Webber was just an annoying character to play alongside with sometimes as a none webber).

Friendly spiders.

Despite this, I think the rework will be a great foundation for their skill tree. I hope to see some things like:

Reduced switcherdoodle costs; maybe feed them to a queen to get a specific den (or better yet feed the den directly). Some unique additions to Webber themselves. Strength to den decorations and maybe some sort of worker spiders that repairs them overtime that dens with decorations can spawn. Some precision to the shoo box and Webby whistle, where de-aggroing is a short animation and if you hold it you also dismiss the befriended ones. And spiders never eating loot off the ground.

Y'know what. Fair enough.

(You did miss Webber's new abilities to downgrade den sizes, speed boost on sticky ground and sleep in tier 3 dens, abilities that do focus moreso on webber.)

I think switcherdoodles are fine, but I agree they could be cheaper. As for the spider tools, I can't really comment but I would just think it would be cumbersome to create and code.

If you could change his rework, what would you have done instead.

[HowlVoid]

14 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I'll just upvote since you took the words right our of my mouth.

My biggest hot take:
People saying "rework" instead of "refresh" drive me absolutely insane. They are not the same!

The shadeeeeeee

But you're right, to be fair I'm using it interchangeably for refresh cause the two words get thrown around so much. But I'm aware the refreshes weren't supposed to be complete overhauls of the characters.

Also tbf, I think even Klei said rework at some point. Idk.

I also dislike the portal but only because it affects how we perceive individual character balance. When I would say that wormwood was too weak, well people could throw Warly's spices in my face. However I only play one character so the portal has affected my playstyle as far as dev balance goes despite what people may say. However I will always be against nerfing or removing it because while I can say "Hey, this affects me even though I don't use it"; someone may say "Well that's your fault". (which is ALSO true) so the debate goes stagnant really fast. It's just more detrimental to remove something that is already established.

[WenericMember]

6 hours ago, Sir Noel said:

Wigfrid was honestly fine as she was, and the songs were mostly agreed to be an added bonus to an already good character. Inspiration is useful when you can activate it, and most of the songs that matter are not that hard to get. Her rework was almost perfect... and I say almost because the flaws are pretty obvious at this point.

For how hard some of the more useless songs are to get you'd think the obvious best one (healing) would be at least slightly difficult to obtain. If anything the healing song should be the one locked to further progression for how it is clearly the best one, but other Wig mains would probably crucify me for saying that lol

I don't disagree particularly, it's just she's the only character who's rework changes I use by FAR the least. I guess I just wish Wigfrid's rework introduced perks not related explicitly to combat, or maybe a unique weapon type like Wanda and Wolfgang both have now.

[HowlVoid]

7 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Y'know what. Fair enough.

(You did miss Webber's new abilities to downgrade den sizes, speed boost on sticky ground and sleep in tier 3 dens, abilities that do focus moreso on webber.

Ah, probably cause I see those things as very niche and side grades to existing items/mechanics.

7 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I think switcherdoodles are fine, but I agree they could be cheaper. As for the spider tools, I can't really comment but I would just think it would be cumbersome to create and code.

If you could change his rework, what would you have done instead.

I made a long extensive list of changes back during the refresh and I don't remember much, but I think my main point (given the direction the refresh was going at the time) was that spiders could be more closely to an extension of Webber. 

Something like striders catching fish or bringing things in the sea to Webber. But I can understand not wanting to code too much for one character *cough* Wx-78 *cough*.

The things I said are some other changes I'd also enjoy seeing like specialized dens by using the doodles on a queen/den.

Overall the refresh was good groundwork for skill trees, so hopefully some tweaks are added in.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Ah, probably cause I see those things as very niche and side grades to existing items/mechanics.

I made a long extensive list of changes back during the refresh and I don't remember much, but I think my main point (given the direction the refresh was going at the time) was that spiders could be more closely to an extension of Webber. 

Something like striders catching fish or bringing things in the sea to Webber. But I can understand not wanting to code too much for one character *cough* Wx-78 *cough*.

The things I said are some other changes I'd also enjoy seeing like specialized dens by using the doodles on a queen/den.

Overall the refresh was good groundwork for skill trees, so hopefully some tweaks are added in.

So basically making the spiders a bit more like Maxwell's shadow puppets? Not a bad idea tbh

Though with how cheap spiders are I'd restrict it to things like grass/twigs, or collecting items from the ground. It would give webber a good niche without being too gamebreaking.

(Also I think WX-78 is far easier to work with in comparison, most circuits are changing a single variable or two, compared to the AI modifications needed for spiders).

But yeah, overall I understand your issues, I'm just surprised you think its the worst.

 

[Evelo]

12 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

The shadeeeeeee

But you're right, to be fair I'm using it interchangeably for refresh cause the two words get thrown around so much. But I'm aware the refreshes weren't supposed to be complete overhauls of the characters.

Also tbf, I think even Klei said rework at some point. Idk.

Most people say rework. Just is what is it.
I think I have only ever seen 1 post where Klei said rework, and it was on the Youtube Community Page and a reply to someone's comment on that community page. I just know that, what you said, the refreshes weren't suppose to be overhauls. There is only one character who I would consider a rework: Woodie.

Woodie got 2 new forms and was able to have transform at will using the new idols, additionally they completely changed Lucy and the way he transformed into werebeaver. I detest this "refresh" because it moved Woodie away from Lumberjack and more toward WereCanadian. Lucy is my favorite thing about Woodie and it breaks my heart how little she is to Woodie's gameplay. I still miss when she would yell at Woodie to calm down because he was chopping trees too quickly.

Imagine if Willow's refresh came out now and instead of it being about her childhood trauma and Bernie it was about giving her a WW1 flamethrower (though that wouldn't make sense since WW1 started in 1914 and the events of Don't Starve are at least 1906). Maybe that is a bad example idk. I'm tired

[HowlVoid]

14 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

So basically making the spiders a bit more like Maxwell's shadow puppets? Not a bad idea tbh

Those ideas were before Maxwell was reworked I'm sure people wouldn't like them now. Unless it's very different and specialized work that could set them very far apart.

14 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Though with how cheap spiders are I'd restrict it to things like grass/twigs, or collecting items from the ground. It would give webber a good niche without being too gamebreaking.

Yes I agree.

14 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

(Also I think WX-78 is far easier to work with in comparison, most circuits are changing a single variable or two, compared to the AI modifications needed for spiders).

You might be right, I don't know very much about coding. I just make up stupid ideas and see what sticks lol.

14 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

But yeah, overall I understand your issues, I'm just surprised you think its the worst.

 

I mean worst doesn't mean it's all bad. I think a lot of refreshes weren't needed at all and a few that really needed a helping hand. Like Wig's refresh, I also see everything she got as a bonus. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by HowlVoid

[WenericMember]

16 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Most people say rework. Just is what is it.
I think I have only ever seen 1 post where Klei said rework, and it was on the Youtube Community Page and a reply to someone's comment on that community page. I just know that, what you said, the refreshes weren't suppose to be overhauls. There is only one character who I would consider a rework: Woodie.

Woodie got 2 new forms and was able to have transform at will using the new idols, additionally they completely changed Lucy and the way he transformed into werebeaver. I detest this "refresh" because it moved Woodie away from Lumberjack and more toward WereCanadian. Lucy is my favorite thing about Woodie and it breaks my heart how little she is to Woodie's gameplay. I still miss when she would yell at Woodie to calm down because he was chopping trees too quickly.

Imagine if Willow's refresh came out now and instead of it being about her childhood trauma and Bernie it was about giving her a WW1 flamethrower (though that wouldn't make sense since WW1 started in 1914 and the events of Don't Starve are at least 1906). Maybe that is a bad example idk. I'm tired

Ok but, counterpoint:

Willow would be vastly improved in terms of gameply over what she is now if she had a flamethrower.

(That said I do agree)

[Shuckster]

I haven't read much of this thread, so IDK how many I'll be repeating. 

Wanda is not OP. She is a character that requires a lot of resources that you won't be having in excess throught most of the game, especially her teleport networks which I find I usually won't have even on first year if I have bad luck and especially if I am playing with other players

I find that teleporting to dodge with Wortox outside of specific circumstances is a waste of souls, normal kiting is usually fine and if I mess up I'd rather have them for healing instead of getting maybe 1 more hit in.

I find the arguement against Maxwell being OK to be OP because "he (was) the king of the Constant" is a little cope-y. Regardless to where he stands, no character should be able to do everything at once, especially with so little resources plugged into. It's not as fun to have a character in a team game who is better at every job than everyone else.

Wurt is pathetic in short term worlds, and almost broken in long term worlds. She requires a lot of resources to get started, but once she gets a good stockpile of merm huts, she starts to self sustain and steamroll.

Celestial Portal was IMO a mistake to add. It messes with the balancing too much, and I don't think much can be done about it to balance it. Since its mere existence means the player isn't obligated to deal with their characters and their downsides forever, and makes some characters who might be fine perk-wise into "switch characters." I'd rather be obligated to pick one.

My biggest controversy of all (probably) is: Don't Starve was never really "hard" and I don't think it can be, at least not in any meaningful way outside of speedrunning and attack canceling. The game is based primarily around player knowledge of the mechanics, and not really around player skill. At least not in any way that is meaningful outside of those already mentioned. It won't matter if Klei throws a million things at us because once the glitz and glamour of it being new disappears and we know it's coming, it becomes less of a threat immediately. At worst, you're also tackling the new content via an old world, meaing you have bodies and resources to throw around to just brute force your way through. I think by the game being inherently knowledge based means you can't really ever go back to the time you were stumbling around and struggling, cause you as a veteran know the ins and outs of the game. There are only so many things you can throw at the player to add "difficulty" before it feels less like a challenge and more like a chore for the sake of busywork. I felt like adding new enviromental threats to the player via progression, and even planar stuff (if it was balanced better and you didn't IMMEDIATELY have ways to defend and circumvent it) could work to help with some of these issues in theory. But still.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Shuckster
Pressed the wrong keyboard shortcut by mistake and said nothing oopsie

[Dextops]

19 minutes ago, Shuckster said:

I haven't read much of this thread, so IDK how many I'll be repeating. 

Wanda is not OP. She is a character that requires a lot of resources that you won't be having in excess throught most of the game, especially her teleport networks which I find I usually won't have even on first year if I have bad luck and especially if I am playing with other players

I find that teleporting to dodge with Wortox outside of specific circumstances is a waste of souls, normal kiting is usually fine and if I mess up I'd rather have them for healing instead of getting maybe 1 more hit in.

I find the arguement against Maxwell being OK to be OP because "he (was) the king of the Constant" is a little cope-y. Regardless to where he stands, no character should be able to do everything at once, especially with so little resources plugged into. It's not as fun to have a character in a team game who is better at every job than everyone else.

Wurt is pathetic in short term worlds, and almost broken in long term worlds. She requires a lot of resources to get started, but once she gets a good stockpile of merm huts, she starts to self sustain and steamroll.

Celestial Portal was IMO a mistake to add. It messes with the balancing too much, and I don't think much can be done about it to balance it. Since its mere existence means the player isn't obligated to deal with their characters and their downsides forever, and makes some characters who might be fine perk-wise into "switch characters." I'd rather be obligated to pick one.

My biggest controversy of all (probably) is: Don't Starve was never really "hard" and I don't think it can be, at least not in any meaningful way outside of speedrunning and attack canceling. The game is based primarily around player knowledge of the mechanics, and not really around player skill. At least not in any way that is meaningful outside of those already mentioned. It won't matter if Klei throws a million things at us because once the glitz and glamour of it being new disappears and we know it's coming, it becomes less of a threat immediately. At worst, you're also tackling the new content via an old world, meaing you have bodies and resources to throw around to just brute force your way through. I think by the game being inherently knowledge based means you can't really ever go back to the time you were stumbling around and struggling, cause you as a veteran know the ins and outs of the game. There are only so many things you can throw at the player to add "difficulty" before it feels less like a challenge and more like a chore for the sake of busywork. I felt like adding new enviromental threats to the player via progression, and even planar stuff (if it was balanced better and you didn't IMMEDIATELY have ways to defend and circumvent it) could work to help with some of these issues in theory. But still.

Crazy how I perfectly agree and disagree with half the things here

[Shuckster]

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

Crazy how I perfectly agree and disagree with half the things here

I'd like to hear about it.

[Spino43]

45 minutes ago, Shuckster said:

My biggest controversy of all (probably) is: Don't Starve was never really "hard" and I don't think it can be, at least not in any meaningful way outside of speedrunning and attack canceling.

Same for most "difficult" games nowadays like the dark souls franchise. It's hard simply because you haven't understood it yet.

[Shuckster]

24 minutes ago, Spino43 said:

Same for most "difficult" games nowadays like the dark souls franchise. It's hard simply because you haven't understood it yet.

I should probably stress that this isn't inheretly bad or anything, this is a perfectly valid way to design a game, especially a single player one. But to expect games like these to stay difficult as a veteran with a lot of time in it probably isn't going to happen.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Shuckster

[Evelo]

I got some more:

Beefalo are too powerful and I see a lot of people talk about them in a positive light. They are effectively an additional character, you don't truly play your character while on a beefalo.

Not being good at Boss Rushing or killing bosses in general doesn't make you bad at the game, you likely just prioritize other aspects of the game.

The Howlitzer is a dangerous addition for the longevity of the game. (Unless Klei plans to end DST like they did with DS at some point then redact this)

Celestial Portal blah blah, you've heard this a million times it isn't "hot" just mild flavored.

Wormwood is the best, if you disagree your opinion is objectively wrong. (80% sarcasm)

Moonquay was a great update with an unfortunate execution.

Reap What You Sow was the best update to DST. (as of 2023-11-03)

Klei is an amazing company and focusing on the negatives of Tencent is belittling to the wonderful people that work at Klei.

People optimize this game too much. Character balance doesn't actually matter. Animation Canceling is not worth the effort. Using exploits (not cheese, two different things. eg Void Walk is exploit, Dfly Lavae Walls are cheese) to fight bosses or move around the map. But if you have fun, sure you do you just don't bash people who don't.

People use mods to make Tripple MacTusk biomes but don't just increase the respawn rate of the MacTusks and not force a huge ugly biome in the world, it makes no sense to me.

I don't understand why Wagstaff and Alter are on the "same team" when Wagstaff is using Alter's Powers unlike Charlie who is more teaming up with The Shadow Them, unless I am misunderstanding I am so confused by that.

Wormwood is the best, and yes I will say this again.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Evelo

[Shuckster]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

People optimize this game too much. Character balance doesn't actually matter. Animation Canceling is not worth the effort. Using exploits (not cheese, two different things. eg Void Walk is exploit, Dfly Lavae Walls are cheese) to fight bosses or move around the map. But if you have fun, sure you do you just don't bash people who don't.

This reminded me of another hot take (at least partially) but.. balance, even in a singleplayer enviroment, does IMO sort of matter. As you said yourself, people will always pick meta. But this even applies to the most casual of players. At some point, they will likely find out through trail and error what is the safest, most efficient way to do things. Its in our genes as gamers to try to win the game above all else, and it's unfortunately very common for players to gravitate towards options that'll help them succeed them most. Doesn't matter if it's fun or not. "Optimizing the fun" out of a game can sometimes be a symptom of poor design. This is why sometimes you find players picking the easier option that'll help them win (that isn't literally easy mode) instead of doing the thing that might be more fun. In the context of characters, having some being more broken than others can potentially cause players to gravitate towards them to create boring metas and uniformity. That isn't something you want to happen. While I don't think it's as black and white in DST for a myriad of reasons, such as the Wendy/Wig being noob traps for combat, and how some characters like Wanda and Maxwell may be punishing for less experienced players, and some characters have genuine unique niches others can't replicate like Wormwood. If you're not careful, it can become an issue. Obviously, you can't stop the evolution of a meta at "high level play", but you can give players legit reasons to use X instead of Y without it centering essentially around one thing in a vacuum. 

[Theukon-dos]

The "Monster but actually silly little guy" character archtype was overdone by the time Wortox rolled around. Wurt should have been a facist instead of a child. Or better yet, a facist and a child for the extra juxtoposition.

[Nnumber3]

The classic 6 crockpot set-up is practically useless 99% of the time, waste of far too many rocks. 

2-3 is generally enough.

[DownloadADuck]

18 minutes ago, Nnumber3 said:

The classic 6 crockpot set-up is practically useless 99% of the time, waste of far too many rocks. 

2-3 is generally enough.

pov me as wurt with no crockpots

 

[astroapyr]

To say a character is OP like its a bad thing is absurd. Just play whoever you enjoy playing and let everyone enjoy too, and if the game is too easy for you, there's Wes.

[Hungry French]

22 hours ago, Dragonboooorn said:

Not sure about skins being canon.

In roadmap 2023 art you can see Survivor Wolfgang (literally the best skin in the game, if you think otherwise your opinion is simply wrong) and Hallowed nights Wendy.

However, in that art you can also spot Wilson wearing both backpack AND armor (cringe), while Wendy is also... Carrying a knife? None of said things are possiable in the game. 

In Comic Wendy and Wolfgang has skins... So skins are canon if DS and DST are not alternative storylines

Edited November 4, 2023 by Hungry French

[Spino43]

Most skins are canon, but I don't think some of the wurt ones are?

Like, why is she literally another creature than a merm with different look

[Jakepeng99]

11 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

They should of been able to craft the dens themselves and get an infinite number of specific spiders because they all die to aoes the same. 

I like how obtaining spiders currently is. It is fun to adventure into the caves and catch spitters like pokemon. I reccomend trying that method since they normally wont die.

4 hours ago, Nnumber3 said:

The classic 6 crockpot set-up is practically useless 99% of the time, waste of far too many rocks. 

2-3 is generally enough.

I am kinda butting in, but people normally make  those because they are good for multiplayer. Plus, there are recipes like dragon pies and perogies which take ages to cook. If you are playing solo and dont use big recipes then yeah it is better.