Saying "nerf" is becoming a tabú

[Theukon-dos]

4 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Hail. Brightshades. Post rift bosses. You need to take measures to ensure that the new trio don't res. And even then, there's incentive to slay them. 

Do you spend the first winter in the caves?

1. Planar damage only effect perks directly related to combat.

2. A lot of the worst power-crept characters like Wanda, Maxwell, and Wickerbottom where only partially that strong becuase of planar damage. Wanda can still teleport around the whole map and be immortal in fights. Maxwell is still the best harvester and can still stunlock bosses with the prison, and Wickerbottom still has so much control over the constant that it rivals that of Charlie herself.

3. The game may not live or die on the first year, but that's still a good 100-200 days before an average player will be opening rifts.

4. Rifts are aggressively optional anyways, so does that even count? By that logic, you can't call the game too easy because you killed the bosses with dark swords. Go and kill Misery Toadstool with an axe and then we can talk about difficulty.

[Primalflower]

12 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Rifts are aggressively optional anyways

would... you count, beating the wall of flesh... as optional..?

[Scrimbles]

28 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Hail. Brightshades. Post rift bosses. You need to take measures to ensure that the new trio don't res. And even then, there's incentive to slay them. 

Do you spend the first winter in the caves?

You listed choices of content. Content which I don't find to add much in terms of difficulty and involve interacting with content that doesn't interest me.

I do not have a choice when it comes to easier characters. If I play characters like Maxwell or Wendy, I am forced to play a character that is easier than they used to be. They make the entire base game easier.

And I could run a 1000 day world before choosing to interact with new content, trivializing all potential challenge. I don't have the choice to be forced to encounter the new content, not in a balanced manner.

[Guille6785]

9 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

would... you count, beating the wall of flesh... as optional..?

isn't the wall of flesh the halfway point of terraria? rifts are basically a minor amount of extra content after the main questlines have already been completed, meanwhile the final boss in terraria (and like basically the 2nd half of the game's content AFAIK) isn't accessible until after you've defeated WoF, rifts and the wall of flesh are completely incomparable

[chirsg]

15 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Wanda can still teleport around the whole map and be immortal in fights

This stands out. This is VERY end game. You can't really get a decent network going early on, especially in a group where EVERYONE wants their own cane. You present things in a very ideal scenario.

16 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Wickerbottom

I'll agree that her entire kit was pandora's box. Her summoning full moons every night made problems for Woodie that demanded skill trees to be introduced. Cat's out of the bag and we can't get it back in. 

17 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

average player

Average players still have difficulty with the game.

18 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

optional

EVERY SINGLE THING IN THIS GAME IS OPTIONAL

Everything. Every single thing. Without fail, every single thing in this game is optional. Challenge literally comes with the choices you make and how you play. This game is still hard for me because if the dragonfly isn't dead by day 6 and chess pieces aren't assembled by day 11, the run is dead. Dead run, world is worthless, A new world is no longer worth it's salt and I go back to my 10000 day to mess around and lag.

Yes. Rifts absolutely count in the discussion. 

 

21 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

1. Planar damage only effect perks directly related to combat.

 

Combat is a large portion of what makes this game difficult. 

 

For the most part, I'm unsure on how uncompromising bunch can be appeased. If the game isn't hard anymore, get competitive. Literally go out of your way to be the best hardcore dst player in the world. The game is still hard when you're trying to pursue a level of excellence that goes beyond sitting beside a campfire and establishing a steady flow of food.

[Theukon-dos]

11 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

would... you count, beating the wall of flesh... as optional..?

No, as Guille said, there is a lot of content locked behind Wall of Flesh, including an actual goal of "Eventually reaching and beating the moon lord"

Also, Mr. Guide doesn't hang around the underworld asking for 5 dollars before the spirits of light and dark actually get released, unlike Wagstaff or Charlie.

[Scrimbles]

4 minutes ago, chirsg said:

EVERY SINGLE THING IN THIS GAME IS OPTIONAL

Everything. Every single thing. Without fail, every single thing in this game is optional. Challenge literally comes with the choices you make and how you play. This game is still hard for me because if the dragonfly isn't dead by day 6 and chess pieces aren't assembled by day 11, the run is dead. Dead run, world is worthless, A new world is no longer worth it's salt and I go back to my 10000 day to mess around and lag.

Everything? Great!

Can I get old Woodie back?

What about Classic DS Maxwell?

Or Wortox before they over buffed him?

Oooh, or what about Wendy before they gave her an insane damage boost?

Maybe I can get Dragonfly to invade as a boss too! Or Gmoose!

6 minutes ago, chirsg said:

For the most part, I'm unsure on how uncompromising bunch can be appeased.

It's pretty easy actually, add more survival challenges that you are forced to... you know, survive?

And then just add more world options to disable them. So you have a choice.

[Dextops]

1 minute ago, Scrimbles said:

Can I get old Woodie back

Please god no

 

1 minute ago, Scrimbles said:

Or Wortox before they over buffed him

Please god no x2

[Primalflower]

5 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

isn't the wall of flesh the halfway point of terraria? rifts are basically a minor amount of extra content after the main questlines have already been completed, meanwhile the final boss in terraria (and like basically the 2nd half of the game's content AFAIK) isn't accessible until after you've defeated WoF, rifts and the wall of flesh are completely incomparable

the wall of flesh unlocks hardmode, which is an extremely sizeable portion of the game, changing the world around you and lets you grab X or Y material to allow you to do X or Y to keep progressing, while adding new enemies into existing biomes. beating the celestial champion (and giving the thing to wagstaff which is essentially just a confirmation box because he doesn't leave you alone at all afterwards) gives you rifts which change the world around you and let you grab X or Y material to allow you to do X or Y to keep progressing through the game, while adding new enemies to existing biomes periodically.

The comparison is obviously going to be different when rifts are content that is just being actively added, and hardmode in terraria was added like a million years ago, but realistically, its just going to keep getting more content, and I would really consider it the same sort of blockade in progression towards an ultimate 'end state', rather than the content being 'optional', even if, in both cases, you can just choose never to interact with it.

[chirsg]

3 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

isn't the wall of flesh the halfway point of terraria? rifts are basically a minor amount of extra content after the main questlines have already been completed, meanwhile the final boss in terraria (and like basically the 2nd half of the game's content AFAIK) isn't accessible until after you've defeated WoF, rifts and the wall of flesh are completely incomparable

Who knows. Rifts might be half way point for us. The change is going a lot slower, granted, but we're getting more and more things to do in the post game. 

This game is pretty front heavy though. 

12 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

And I could run a 1000 day world before choosing to interact with new content, trivializing all potential challenge. I don't have the choice to be forced to encounter the new content, not in a balanced manner.

That is too slow and boring. Going in guns blazing is the way to go. And for me, that's still hard. For me, success on bee queen isn't guaranteed as I don't want my mandrakes to die just for a boss with 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 respawns.

 

This game is dictated by choices. 

[lowercase skye]

13 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

isn't the wall of flesh the halfway point of terraria? rifts are basically a minor amount of extra content after the main questlines have already been completed, meanwhile the final boss in terraria (and like basically the 2nd half of the game's content AFAIK) isn't accessible until after you've defeated WoF, rifts and the wall of flesh are completely incomparable

I think it should be considered that hard mode was added to Terraria 12 years ago, while rifts were added 6 months ago.

[Primalflower]

3 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

No, as Guille said, there is a lot of content locked behind Wall of Flesh, including an actual goal of "Eventually reaching and beating the moon lord"

Also, Mr. Guide doesn't hang around the underworld asking for 5 dollars before the spirits of light and dark actually get released, unlike Wagstaff or Charlie.

The moon lord did not exist for a very long time after hard mode was added. The moon lord was added in a content update after entering hard mode the mechanic was implemented. the comparison becomes more apt in this light, and I didn't even think about it. one of them is just earlier in the implementaiton of this idea.

As for the guide thing, uhh.. the wagstaff unlock's item requirement was added as an extra drop to the fight so you wouldn't lose anything if you decided to opt in, and the confirmation for it was added later, when people were upset about not being prepared enough to deal with the threats that rifts bring, it was like, a consolation sort of thing. Even if you don't give wagstaff the thing, he'll follow you forever asking for it repeatedly. I really don't think it's supposed to be optional so much as it's just lenient in its implementation as a stepping stone in overall progression. Even if this weren't the case, I would still think of it in the same sort of way. I have no idea how to make my thought more convincing at the moment.

[MagicalStorm]

1 minute ago, Primalflower said:

The moon lord did not exist for a very long time after hard mode was added. The moon lord was added in a content update after entering hard mode the mechanic was implemented. the comparison becomes more apt in this light, and I didn't even think about it. one of them is just earlier in the implementaiton of this idea.

Hardmode got introduced along with the Mech bosses, so your objective was to off them and get full hallowed stuff back when it also costed souls (hallowed bars weren't even a thing)

[Primalflower]

4 minutes ago, MagicalStorm said:

Hardmode got introduced along with the Mech bosses, so your objective was to off them and get full hallowed stuff back when it also costed souls (hallowed bars weren't even a thing)

like, we're literally... just now... getting 3 moon bosses, too!!! moon lord was not added until hard mode existed for 4 years my guys work with me

[chirsg]

10 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

It's pretty easy actually, add more survival challenges that you are forced to... you know, survive?

Guns blazing. Kill all bosses in autumn 1. Game is still hard. My survival depends entirely on my success.

As for all the old characters, I don't know what to tell you. If things are easy in the game, I think it's our collective responsibility to create new goals in which we challenge ourselves. 

I'll concede that for day to day, new character developments have made things easier, so we need to use their advantages to go guns blazing.

 

That is my answer. Game too easy? Guns blazing. Set records, protect the world's ecology at all costs. This is how I operate.

 

[GelatinousCube]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Hey, formerly active Apex Legends player here, I used to main Wraith.. and then after 10 seasons worth of consecutive nerfs to her I instead opt’d to play as other characters who did Wraiths job BETTER than she ever could even before all the Nerfs. Then when she never got any buffs or reworked abilities to make up for the TEN SEASONS WORTH OF NERFS I Deleted Apex Legends & haven’t bothered playing it ever again.

Whats my point??? People asking for Nerfs to content make things people once enjoyed, no longer enjoyable. While sometimes nerfs are warranted, I’ve seen far too often players wanting them just to spite one another.

Sigh... off topic. Also I feel like you are pretty guilty of this yourself and ask for nerfs or changes that would only be horrible for other actual long term players and would have very little to no actual effect on your experience. You see the game through a very narrow lens and purely your style of play and suggest changes based on this.

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

And in particular when it comes to DST I am sooo tired of watching uncompromising survival content get Nerfed in favor of being less annoying for more casual players.. and a few examples of that would be how ruthlessly aggressive Wavey Jones was in his original implementation, how Wonkeys Curse worked, and even how much damage boats originally took when smashing into things (we even now have shell bumpers that could’ve went well with improving the surviveability of your boat)

Pure destruction with no real actual challenge other than posing a threat to something you spent hours building (but easily can rebuild and plenty of resources to do so but just have to waste a ton of time doing so) is not challenging uncompromising survival content.
Literally in your own words removing "annoying" (not challenging, annoying) features or mechanics is a bad thing? what?

Wonkey Curse is honestly just a garbage mechanic, it could have/still can be changed to something interesting/more fun but as it is right now its just horrid. Its basically the main reason I (and probably most players) barely ever interact with or turn on the Moonquay content. Yeah Pirate raids are still pretty punishing (pan flute or various other strategies help) and you get mobbed/stunlocked in a tiny area but without the trinkets and curse they would be like ten times better. They'd still need some work but they would be better for sure. The curse (while yes a creative and cool idea on paper) is just not a good mechanic, pretty sure the majority of players and forumites agree with this - that update is one of the worst received we've ever had. 

Wavey Jones was an absolute NIGHTMARE originally, like you literally couldn't walk ANYWHERE even somewhat close to a boat even while on land without him messing with your boats and basically sinking/stealing them away. He also appeared at way too high a threshold of sanity forcing you to basically have more or less full sanity at all times while sailing which was not fun or interesting at all, just annoying and unnecessary. He was busted to the high hells but you wouldn't know or agree to this because you never mega base or have docks with multiple boats as you focus on early-mid game. So basically you wanted something to be horrible and annoying, and basically nerfing sea travel and boats in general in a way that would barely effect you but would be SUPER punishing for other types of players, literally what you said in the first part about people wanting nerfs or changes that would be horrible for actual long term players and would have very little effect on your experience. So yeah you're literally doing that in the same post... not out of spite however but out of lack of knowledge and experience with the game. 

On console at least the boat bumpers are an absolute nightmare and not worth it at all. They make it much harder to pick up debris and items on the edge of your boat in the ocean. If steering wheels, anchors etc are placed too close to the edge of your boat (which why wouldn't they be so you can fit more in the middle) then they are harder to interact with because of bumpers as well. Bumpers are legit not worth it at all (unless you are just literally going around destroying sea stacks by smashing into them). 

[SapoLover]

Obviusly. I remember that time when someone suggested to nerf Wicker's lunar book, and Klei actually did it. Some forumites started to comment passive aggresive attacks in the nerf post. He admitted people were making him feel bad. "Ruins the fun". Klei won't nerf anything that is not absolutely obviusly super overpowered because how bad people react to things changing for the "worse".

Spoiler

19 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Now when playing Wurt i feel like a 2019 Wolfgang main.

[Sanitar]

8 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Guns blazing. Kill all bosses in autumn 1. Game is still hard. My survival depends entirely on my success.

Are you saying that the game is difficult because it is difficult in speedruns?

[chirsg]

Just now, Sanitar said:

Are you saying that the game is difficult because it is difficult in speedruns?

Doesn't need to be a speedrun. Not all boss rushes are speedruns. You need god worldgen for a speedrun. It's rng

[Theukon-dos]

9 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

the wall of flesh unlocks hardmode, which is an extremely sizeable portion of the game, changing the world around you and lets you grab X or Y material to allow you to do X or Y to keep progressing, while adding new enemies into existing biomes. beating the celestial champion (and giving the thing to wagstaff which is essentially just a confirmation box because he doesn't leave you alone at all afterwards) gives you rifts which change the world around you and let you grab X or Y material to allow you to do X or Y to keep progressing through the game, while adding new enemies to existing biomes periodically.

The comparison is obviously going to be different when rifts are content that is just being actively added, and hardmode in terraria was added like a million years ago, but realistically, its just going to keep getting more content, and I would really consider it the same sort of blockade in progression towards an ultimate 'end state', rather than the content being 'optional', even if, in both cases, you can just choose never to interact with it.

 

2 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

The moon lord did not exist for a very long time after hard mode was added. The moon lord was added in a content update after entering hard mode the mechanic was implemented. the comparison becomes more apt in this light, and I didn't even think about it. one of them is just earlier in the implementaiton of this idea.

As for the guide thing, uhh.. the wagstaff unlock's item requirement was added as an extra drop to the fight so you wouldn't lose anything if you decided to opt in, and the confirmation for it was added later, when people were upset about not being prepared enough to deal with the threats that rifts bring, it was like, a consolation sort of thing. Even if you don't give wagstaff the thing, he'll follow you forever asking for it repeatedly. I really don't think it's supposed to be optional so much as it's just lenient in its implementation as a stepping stone in overall progression. Even if this weren't the case, I would still think of it in the same sort of way. I have no idea how to make my thought more convincing at the moment.

Fair point about the Moonlord, I'll admit. But ultimately, the biggest difference between DST and Terraria how the worlds and players interact with the big shift.

In Terraria, the world gets much stronger, and expects you to get stronger along with it. New weapons, new tools, new accessories. The game wants the player to face it all head-on and rewards them handsomely for doing so. Bosses that once posed a challenge for them in pre-hardmode are now torn to shreds within seconds thanks to the new gear and equipment as a monument to the player's progress.

 

Meanwhile, Rifts in DST are trying to change as little as possible. Yes, there are new mobs. But the world is still mostly populated by the ones you've been familiar with for all this time. And instead of these mobs becoming noticably easier with the literal cosmic power the player now has access too, rift content is specifically designed to not make pre-rift content easier. And even weakens certain characters due to planar damage not being effected by modifiers.

 

In the end, Hard Mode uses it's progression as a means to continuously raise the player to new heights, while Rifts are just an extension of the existing status quo with a new coat of paint and a restraining order against Wigfrid.

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, Theukon-dos said:

In Terraria, the world gets much stronger, and expects you to get stronger along with it. New weapons, new tools, new accessories. The game wants the player to face it all head-on and rewards them handsomely for doing so. Bosses that once posed a challenge for them in pre-hardmode are now torn to shreds within seconds thanks to the new gear and equipment as a monument to the player's progress.

 

Meanwhile, Rifts in DST are trying to change as little as possible. Yes, there are new mobs. But the world is still mostly populated by the ones you've been familiar with for all this time. And instead of these mobs becoming noticably easier with the literal cosmic power the player now has access too, rift content is specifically designed to not make pre-rift content easier. And even weakens certain characters due to planar damage not being effected by modifiers.

you receive a million different new (and powerful) weapons and armors the moment you even look in the direction of the new things added by rifts. Just because the damage of the brightshade sword doesn't scale doesn't mean you don't receive insane new tools. I can't tell you how many times brightshade helmets (immunity from charlie at a cost) brightshade armor (wormwood is so good in this, it should not be glanced over how every skill tree looks to be giving characters some kind of interaction with planar) brightshade staffs (its.. so good... against... everything) and brightshade bombs (INSANE WEAPON) have saved my butt or just made a million things so much nicer. Not even mentioning the things you receive from killing the 3 new post-hardmode bosses. The world is rewarding you greatly for interacting with what is genuinely a very decent threat (if nothing else, just because they all hit so hard, so the room for error is so much smaller than it was before). the world is only going to further receive different thrall mobs all over the place. The difference between these two ideas is honestly minimal, one is just in a more strictly sandbox experience (dst)

[GetNerfedOn]

[Maxil20]

1 hour ago, Primalflower said:

you receive a million different new (and powerful) weapons and armors the moment you even look in the direction of the new things added by rifts. Just because the damage of the brightshade sword doesn't scale doesn't mean you don't receive insane new tools. I can't tell you how many times brightshade helmets (immunity from charlie at a cost) brightshade armor (wormwood is so good in this, it should not be glanced over how every skill tree looks to be giving characters some kind of interaction with planar) brightshade staffs (its.. so good... against... everything) and brightshade bombs (INSANE WEAPON) have saved my butt or just made a million things so much nicer. Not even mentioning the things you receive from killing the 3 new post-hardmode bosses. The world is rewarding you greatly for interacting with what is genuinely a very decent threat (if nothing else, just because they all hit so hard, so the room for error is so much smaller than it was before). the world is only going to further receive different thrall mobs all over the place. The difference between these two ideas is honestly minimal, one is just in a more strictly sandbox experience (dst)

It is also important to note that when Terrarria got hardmode in version 1.1, it did not have nearly as much content as most people use in early hardmode. You pretty much had the 3 ore armor sets, the various book crafts, a few bullet types, the hallow and underground hallow/corruption, and mech bosses with various loot from said mech bosses. Most of the “harder” mobs did not drop new items other then money/souls, aside from cursed clingers/world feeders from the corruption side which dropped cursed flames, pixies which dropped pixie dust, and unicorns for unicorn horns. It was far less fleshed out then what it is now.

Don’t get me wrong, I used to play the absolute heck out of 1.1 and I had a very good time with it. I just feel it’s not a fair comparison to see new “hard” content that should be as fleshed out as Terrarria’s, which has been in development for years before it ultimately got a genuine endgame in the form of the lunar events/post moon lord gear. 

[Scrimbles]

2 hours ago, chirsg said:

That is my answer. Game too easy? Guns blazing. Set records, protect the world's ecology at all costs. This is how I operate

So my choice is play it your way, or **** off basically...

Nahhhhh

2 hours ago, Dextops said:

Please god no

 

Please god no x2

"Please god no" to what? The option to get the old character types back?

[Antynomity]

2 hours ago, finn from human said:

I think it should be considered that hard mode was added to Terraria 12 years ago, while rifts were added 6 months ago.

The ocean in DST after 4 years of development compared to Shipwrecked a few years after development (idk how many):