Saying "nerf" is becoming a tabú

[Sacco]

EVERY single time someone suggests a nerf there are people in the comments that just insult the poster for no reason.

"5000 hours veteran toxic player Edgy rick fan" or "uncompromising tryhard" or something like that are comments that i've read tons of times.

I'm a fan of nerfs, but i don't like neither edgy rick neither i am a 5000 hours tryharder nor a veteran of this game.

i've played uncompromising but i didn't like everything of this mode, obviously.

i have 1000 hours in this game but i can't consider myself a pro, just someone who knows what to do, but i was always keen in the topic of nerfing things even when i was new at the game.

i think nerfing items/charcters should be a normal thing in almost all games, dst included, and buffing too!

One think i want people to know is that nerfs can make the game more enjoyable and challenging in a good way.

But in my eyes seems like in this community the word "nerf" can't be said for some odd reason.

sometimes i suggest some nerfs in the forums, and there are obviously great people that don't have my same idea and with a totally kind comment share their opinion, but there are some people that just get mad when they hear the word "nerf".

A MESSAGE TO KLEI.

I know you are probably not going to give an answer, but i want to ask anyway:

Klei, are you afraid of nerfing in this game?

New players don't get invalidated from nerfs if you choose the things to change, and even if you nerf a thing used by new players they can still manage to survive, i've honestly never had problems about food, heat or cold in this game.

You just seem to add difficulty post rifts with wheather patterns or boss, you are just making the end game harder (even if i don't think so).

You are just giving "pro" players a challenge only if they want and not every time they are in the game.

And i want to repeat, nerfs won't make newbies leave this game, because if you are going to nerf you are going to buff something else to maybe compensate the nerf or just because if something gets a nerf is easier for it to get a buff without becoming too good!

That's all i have to say, this is my honest opinion.

Feel free to share your opinion in the comments.

bye! (:

[goatt]

26 minutes ago, Sacco said:

nerfs won't make newbies leave this game

Newbies probably won't even notice most of the changes made to the game.

Balancing requires both buff and nerf. And we will need balancing because new mechanics are still being made.

 

But this is not a competitive e-sport game. Game balance isn't that important. What matters is a good feel of game progression and hook.

[Sacco]

Just now, goatt said:

Newbies probably won't even notice most of the changes made to the game.

Balancing requires both buff and nerf. And we will need balancing because new mechanics are still being made.

 

But this is not a competitive e-sport game. Game balance isn't that important. What matters is a good feel of game progression and hook.

like i said in the post i am not against buffs, they along nerfs are required in a game imo.

i know dst is not a competitive game, but would it balanced if you could unlock every endgame weapon day 1? would it be fun? absolutely not.

nerfing things would give a better sensation of game progression in the case of dst.

[goatt]

14 minutes ago, Sacco said:

i know dst is not a competitive game, but would it balanced if you could unlock every endgame weapon day 1? would it be fun? absolutely not.

nerfing things would give a better sensation of game progression in the case of dst.

My true feeling about the game is that I think balance (including nerfs) matters a lot.

But my understanding of the situation is that balance doesn't matter to the game anymore. Progression matters more. You mentioned "endgame weapon day 1", that's not about balancing, that's progression.

In my understanding, balancing is about balancing pros and cons so that every character is interesting to play and has hooks to attract players of different personalities, and has their own pleasant distinctive progression.

[MondayNight]

Depends.

Give concrete examples of items/mechanics/characters/etc objectively needing nerfs - and most importantly: why. This accounting bulk player-base, not solely advanced experienced players you find pushing early into end-game content solo-ing bosses in rushing manner and/or using minimal-to-no-protection equipment - aka "unicorn legends" you read about or see in some questionable YT/Twitch/BiliBili/a.s.o. videos. Because I for one saw most nerfing proposals from such POVs. That or from a Dunning-Kruger lower end perspective (not accounting trolls doing so out of spite or for $hit&giggles "bandwagons").

[chirsg]

What is actually overpowered though? The game is still difficult if you death march against the bosses. You lose 40 hp in autumn 1 and you're scrambling to get it back if you haven't found the blue mushroom biome yet.

 

Survival has always been about knowledge and nothing can be done if you literally know everything. You really just need to follow goals and deadlines at that point.

 

The game is correspondingly difficult based on what you want to achieve.

Try a run where you don't kill mandrakes and suddenly bee queen becomes a coinflip on whether or not you beat her.

 

Nerfs are terrible. Not sure if you realized, but attack rate got nerfed and the worst part about it is, it's inconsistent. There's literally a bug in the game that isn't a high priority to fix.

This game isn't really all combat, yet that's where a lot of the difficulty does come from. As far as game knowledge goes, I say before, I say again and I probably will be repeating myself until the day I die, but when you know everything there is to know, dying will be optional.

 

I've been saying for a while now, a challenge island centered on scarcity would be a good way to go. Eventide island for dst where you lose your entire kit upon touch down and stress test your game knowledge and resource management to survive.

 

Difficulty. Honestly, it's all relative. Get caught out with max insanity armed with only an axe against 2 terror beaks. That's hard no matter what.

[Jakepeng99]

29 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Depends.

Give concrete examples of items/mechanics/characters/etc objectively needing nerfs - and most importantly: why. This accounting bulk player-base, not solely advanced experienced players you find pushing early into end-game content solo-ing bosses in rushing manner and/or using minimal-to-no-protection equipment - aka "unicorn legends" you read about or see in some questionable YT/Twitch/BiliBili/a.s.o. videos. Because I for one saw most nerfing proposals from such POVs. That or from a Dunning-Kruger lower end perspective (not accounting trolls doing so out of spite or for $hit&giggles "bandwagons").

Wanda because i hate seeing characters who may be stronger than Wurt.

25 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Nerfs are terrible. Not sure if you realized, but attack rate got nerfed and the worst part about it is, it's inconsistent. There's literally a bug in the game that isn't a high priority to fix.

This is a completly different thing and is a really bad example. That is a "bad nerf" which only makes the game slower and nothing else.

[MondayNight]

26 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Get caught out with max insanity armed with only an axe against 2 terror beaks. That's hard no matter what.

Throw lag (most pubs have it, even personal servers on account of machine not being optimal) and/or "rubberbanding" into the mix because.. multiplayer.. and see "magic" happening. No Lag Prediction: Off will save you - screen will just freeze or have erratic movement.

Also yeah, the recent attack speed nerf and that thing, when character stops mid swing to utter a combat quote is pure unmitigated garbage "balance" for no reason except damage "given" to player out of the proverbial thin blue: for example yesterday on some pub, as Walter, was kiting spiders (0 armor equipped because successfully done so N times in past), suddenly character stops when attacking to say "Bla-Bla!" - all 3 spider landing bite. Yeey, "well done" balance!

[Sacco]

23 minutes ago, chirsg said:

What is actually overpowered though? The game is still difficult if you death march against the bosses. You lose 40 hp in autumn 1 and you're scrambling to get it back if you haven't found the blue mushroom biome yet.

 

Survival has always been about knowledge and nothing can be done if you literally know everything. You really just need to follow goals and deadlines at that point.

 

The game is correspondingly difficult based on what you want to achieve.

Try a run where you don't kill mandrakes and suddenly bee queen becomes a coinflip on whether or not you beat her.

 

Nerfs are terrible. Not sure if you realized, but attack rate got nerfed and the worst part about it is, it's inconsistent. There's literally a bug in the game that isn't a high priority to fix.

This game isn't really all combat, yet that's where a lot of the difficulty does come from. As far as game knowledge goes, I say before, I say again and I probably will be repeating myself until the day I die, but when you know everything there is to know, dying will be optional.

 

I've been saying for a while now, a challenge island centered on scarcity would be a good way to go. Eventide island for dst where you lose your entire kit upon touch down and stress test your game knowledge and resource management to survive.

 

Difficulty. Honestly, it's all relative. Get caught out with max insanity armed with only an axe against 2 terror beaks. That's hard no matter what.

as you said if you know everything in this game you are not going to have any problem and you will probably never encounter a situation where you have an ace and there are 2 terrorbeaks attacking you.

if you decide to fight bee queen without pan flutes it's a choice of making the game harder because you want it to be, not because it is harder, that's the thing.

a challenge Island wouldn't work if there weren't any prizes for surviving there, because except for a challenge no one could have a real reason to go there imo.

[Jakepeng99]

29 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Try a run where you don't kill mandrakes and suddenly bee queen becomes a coinflip on whether or not you beat her.

Most people use bunny men, cheese or character exclusive stuff for bee queen. She is a doo doo boss.

[Sacco]

1 minute ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Throw lag (most pubs have it, even personal servers on account of machine not being optimal) and/or "rubberbanding" into the mix because.. multiplayer.. and see "magic" happening. No Lag Prediction: Off will save you - screen will just freeze or have erratic movement.

Also yeah, the recent attack speed nerf and that thing, when character stops mid swing to utter a combat quote is pure unmitigated garbage "balance" for no reason except damage "given" to player out of the proverbial thin blue: for example yesterday on some pub, as Walter, was kiting spiders (0 armor equipped because successfully done so N times in past), suddenly character stops when attacking to say "Bla-Bla!" - all 3 spider landing bite. Yeey, "well done" balance!

these things you mentioned should be fixed, and it'a not a balancing issue, it's just an annoyance 

36 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Depends.

Give concrete examples of items/mechanics/characters/etc objectively needing nerfs - and most importantly: why. This accounting bulk player-base, not solely advanced experienced players you find pushing early into end-game content solo-ing bosses in rushing manner and/or using minimal-to-no-protection equipment - aka "unicorn legends" you read about or see in some questionable YT/Twitch/BiliBili/a.s.o. videos. Because I for one saw most nerfing proposals from such POVs. That or from a Dunning-Kruger lower end perspective (not accounting trolls doing so out of spite or for $hit&giggles "bandwagons").

food first of all.

it's honestly to easy to mass produce.

characters like wanda, max, wolfgang, wickerbottom and in some way even wurt and webber need some sort of a nerf.

Other characters need something to make them more interesting to play, like warly, walter or winona.

bosses should be harder but at the same time some of them should drop more interesting loot.

[Jakepeng99]

Also tbh i have been playing Wurt much less ever since she became the meta character in endless mode since merm guards pretty much let you farm, yes farm, any boss easily. I liked being the underdog, and i liked rubbing in my underrated power in other people's faces on my mission to show that Wurt is one of the best characters whereas at the time she was seen as the worst by the uninformed. Now when playing Wurt i feel like a 2019 Wolfgang main.

We suceeded, the misson has been completed. But what is next?

 

( I still like Wurt but she needs her merm kingdom expanded, e.g fire merms and merm jobs and roles )

[Sacco]

1 minute ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Also tbh i have been playing Wurt much less ever since she became the meta character in endless mode since merm guards pretty much let you farm, yes farm, any boss easily. I liked being the underdog, and i liked rubbing in my underrated power in other people's faces on my mission to show that Wurt is one of the best characters whereas at the time she was seen as the worst by the uninformed. Now when playing Wurt i feel like a 2019 Wolfgang main.

We suceeded, the misson has been completed. But what is next?

 

( I still like Wurt but she needs her merm kingdom expanded, e.g fire merms and merm jobs and roles )

wurt is probably the most broken character of all.

but no one has still figured it out...

[Sanitar]

People always perceive nerves in games very negatively. Even when they are essentially envious. In the same TBOI REPENTACE, nerfs of all OP items occurred and most were unhappy, but although due to buffs of weak items, the game became even easier and fairer. I think it's just Klei to be afraid of a negative reaction

[grm9]

43 minutes ago, Sacco said:

wurt is probably the most broken character of all.

Is this unironical, or just only about late-game?

[Brotid01]

38 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Wanda because i hate seeing characters who may be stronger than Wurt.

This is a completly different thing and is a really bad example. That is a "bad nerf" which only makes the game slower and nothing else.

24 minutes ago, Sacco said:

wurt is probably the most broken character of all.

but no one has still figured it out...

Based, Wurt the only queen of the constant

i don't know about nerfs but Winona and Willow needs some buffs like ages ago same for items like fire staff, fire dart, fire damage in general, walls, telelocator staff, etc.

even when i don't like to play as wanda/wolfgang/wendy because Wurt is better facts! "joke" aside in my opinion theres no such thing as op character/item, if you don't like playing like the others try something new, push yourself to not get stuck in the same meta of rush this or rush that, i don't belive this game right now needs that hard a nerf, i think this game needs more ways to play and give to the player diferent tools to accomplish a goal and not get stuck in the same playstyle, my broken english is shiii... anyway sorry if theres something off.

[Sacco]

Just now, grm9 said:

Is this unironical, or just only about late-game?

honestly? i am no unironical.

there are a lot of veg foods in this game, and when you are set with food production you gain hunger easier than other characters with that +33% hunger gained from food.

wurt can set up 20 merm guards houses and a merm king in the first autumn/winter.

it sounds funny but i have this weird opinion

[Jakepeng99]

46 minutes ago, Sacco said:

wurt is probably the most broken character of all.

but no one has still figured it out...

People just dont believe.

 

I remember when i played a forge mod, even with the dev on, wurt was absurdly broken and nobody believed me even when i soloed many bosses and killed them in less than a minute until another person tried her.

 

Some People just bias against Wurt and ignore her power.

[Sacco]

1 minute ago, Brotid01 said:

Based, Wurt the only queen of the constant

i don't know about nerfs but Winona and Willow needs some buffs like ages ago same for items like fire staff, fire dart, fire damage in general, walls, telelocator staff, etc.

even when i don't like to play as wanda/wolfgang/wendy because Wurt is better facts! "joke" aside in my opinion theres no such thing as op character/item, if you don't like playing like the others try something new, push yourself to not get stuck in the same meta of rush this or rush that, i don't belive this game right now needs that hard a nerf, i think this game needs more ways to play and give to the player diferent tools to accomplish a goal and not get stuck in the same playstyle, my broken english is shiii... anyway sorry if theres something off.

nerfing characters could make them more interesting to play, and buffing others too!

that's the thing, nerfs don't make the game always more frustrating 

[Jakepeng99]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

Is this unironical, or just only about late-game?

She is the best mid-late game chacter. She is still decent early game.

[Sacco]

12 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

She is the best mid-late game chacter. She is still decent early game.

in the early game due to the abundance of veggies wurt is easier to play funnily enough

[Jakepeng99]

Just now, Sacco said:

in the early game with the abundance of veggies wurt is easier to play funnily enough

I missed when Merms would work off screen, she was the best early game with that ability.

 

Pigmen can still do it though.

[b l a n k]

I genuinely think Klei is, like you said, afraid of nerfing in this game.

Beside that, yes, talking about nerfs in this forum will cause a lot of ad hominem attacks, especially when people only have fallacious arguments left.
There are only a few users like that, but they are very loud, so I suggest blocking them to only have the pertinent messages remaining!

[MagicalStorm]

People will rarely like nerfs, that's just the nature of us humans. Most of the nerfs suggested that I've seen were just to limit people's options and/or make things more annoying to do, which don't help the case very well unfortunately. I believe other stuff should be buffed so they're more appealing to go for, compare the football helm to the cookiecutter one for example. That's my opinion though and I only really play with my newbie-ish friends

[Jakepeng99]

3 hours ago, b l a n k said:

I genuinely think Klei is, like you said, afraid of nerfing in this game.

Beside that, yes, talking about nerfs in this forum will cause a lot of ad hominem attacks, especially when people only have fallacious arguments left.
There are only a few users like that, but they are very loud, so I suggest blocking them to only have the pertinent messages remaining!

I dont think you can block people on the forums. I tried it before.