Planer Damage should be removed. A suggestion and a change.

[maroonamanita]

3 hours ago, somethin said:

Planar is just a way to give 'defense' values to enemies, making their effective health and damage higher without increasing the numbers to overblown proportions. The math behind it doesn't even matter much anyway. Just test it on the dummy for the exact value for crying out loud. As for the 'gear powercreep' reason people here has been throwing around, so... you peeps want to just be using hambat/darksword for weapon and thulecite gear/football helm&log suit for like... since their inception? It's high time we get something new to play with already and the update ain't even done yet.

All the new stuff is still good and worth using no reason to keep a bad mechanic 
 

 

10 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Planar damage is a bad mechanic because it exists to address power creep that doesn't exist, unfairly effects characters and items that definitly didn't need nerfed, and is just an extremely complicated system to "fix" problems that could be dealt with by biting the bullet and spending a few hours nerfing number values. Not becuase of... whatever you're arguing for.

Is this not what I said..? 

 

 

10 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Maybe we could grant non-planar weapons planar damage?

This is so the opposite of what I'm saying and is so much work.

 

4 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

Wasn't one of the ideas behind the mechanic to remedy things like blowing up more difficult enemies ('difficult' as in 'the next tier') with single stack of gunpowder?

You can still do that not it just takes a bit more grinding.

3 hours ago, somethin said:

Planar is just a way to give 'defense' values to enemies, making their effective health and damage higher without increasing the numbers to overblown proportions

I mean not really they just give almost the same damage numbers but now we use a plant sword.  

4 hours ago, lenship2 said:

willow: bernie was designed to be a general mob tank, not a damage dealer. he's still useful for post rift enemies, since he never had any sort of resistance to begin with (so planar damage doesn't effect him)

wolfgang: does the damage he once did once more

wendy: abigail does do less damage on planar mobs, but wendy doesn't. so far the only planar enemy that has a mob group is the lunar varg, who summons non planar mobs.

wx: is actually pretty optimal post rift, and using the shock circuit is kind of ineffective even pre-rift

wickerbottom: bees were never that good imo, i wouldn't use them as an argument against planar damage

woodie: is finally good, and the moose already has built in knockback resistance combined with 90% resistance to all damage (including planar)

maxwell: his shadow puppets are still absolute beasts, especially post rifts where you'll have max shadow gear

wigfrid: she still has 25% damage resistance to planar damage and the entirety of her lifesteal mechanic

webber: he's still invincible to pretty much everything that doesn't do high damage aoe

winona: catapults still do their job pretty well, they just are slightly slower at killing planar mobs

warly: is really the only character significantly affected by rifts, but thats mainly due to their removal of wetness. he still has garlic (which applies to planar) and honey, which are really really good

wormwood: is wormwood, his saladmanders don't really need planar damage, and he has the entire brightshade skill tree branch

wurt: hordes of 600 health 50 damage (32 against planar) warrior merms are unsurprisingly still good

walter: slingshot isn't a good source of damage even pre-rift, why would you unironically use it outside of niche ranged abilities?

wanda: has both dreadstone and void gears, her 1.75x multiplier on the reaper, and her teleporting abilities (backstep is surprisingly effective on the new bosses)

A lot of the things i listed are not actually a big deal but more are just like why nerf most of these options that already suck or don't need to be nerfed or are a major part of their kit. 

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

pasting into these forums maintains text formatting.  You can right click and select "paste as plain text" to strip it of formatting.

welp idk then it not bold in the doc lol

[Yuuko]

46 minutes ago, maroonamanita said:

 

welp idk then it not bold in the doc lol

No but the interpreter for pasting into the forum almost always leaves weird artifacts like that - like even background color etc.  Like I copy paste this from your thread

Spoiler

welp idk then it not bold in the doc lol

 

and this from google search result

Double-click the text you want to copy, or highlight it. With the text highlighted, press Ctrl + C to copy. Move your cursor to the appropriate location and press Ctrl + V to paste.

Its really annoying lol

[landromat]

35 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

No but the interpreter for pasting into the forum almost always leaves weird artifacts like that - like even background color etc.  Like I copy paste this from your thread

  Hide contents

welp idk then it not bold in the doc lol

 

and this from google search result

Double-click the text you want to copy, or highlight it. With the text highlighted, press Ctrl + C to copy. Move your cursor to the appropriate location and press Ctrl + V to paste.

Its really annoying lol

There is paste as regular text option

[Yuuko]

18 minutes ago, landromat said:

There is paste as regular text option

 

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

pasting into these forums maintains text formatting.  You can right click and select "paste as plain text" to strip it of formatting.

Yeah, its a pretty essential feature

[Evelo]

2 hours ago, maroonamanita said:

Because when I copy and pasted it out of google docs it bolded it all for some reason and I did not notice

For future reference, you can paste by doing Ctrl+Shift+V which will paste as plain text without any fancy formatting stuffs. Super useful.

[Captain_Rage]

"This is the formula for calculating how much hit damage will be taken by a mob with planar entity protection.

Damage Taken = (√(General Damage * 4 + 64) - 8) * 4 + Planar Damage"

"40 Gunpowder (full stack) deals 8,000 damage, and only deals 684 to planar entity protection, with a -91.5% damage decrease. This is not enough to instantly kill a Deadly Brightshade."

Well, using full stacks of Gunpowder is arguably not viable at all as opposed to hitting the enemy many times / "properly fighting". I think the mechanic works pretty well in streamlining battles and making them more about landing hits (hitting many times instead of hitting hard, like the characters who can face-tank bosses) and dodging attacks. The Nightmare Werepig also has lovely mechanics that prevent face-tanking. This also makes it feel like a next tier enemy and unique. I don't advocate that every boss would be better off with similar mechanics, because honestly that would complicate things unnecessarily. Maybe some bosses / enemies are better off as straightforward bullet sponges while others are more quirky and kind of require learning (or at least make it more rewarding) to learn) their kiting patterns. I think the planar damage mechanics streamlines everything rather well.

 

PS.

When playing together with a friend long ago (he was playing as WX-78) I was at the stage of realizing that it is very possible to dodge the Dragonfly attacks and tried to explain it to him but he insisted that farming Marble Suits and tanking using Pierogi was the way to go / less of a headache, lol (lag is also a factor so in this instance his argument might have held some merit but we were pretty split in this regatd).

[cybers2001]

12 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

Bernie is not meant for dealing damage. >_>

Bernie gaining shadow resist in a skill tree would be so dope, though if there's ever a reason to stack nightmare fuel again.

[Jakepeng99]

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Except then Wolfgang's skill tree comes out and he's stacking DPS anyway.  I don't think it will be different with anyone else.  Every character is going to get planar DPS skills tacked onto their combat skills making the whole thing a song and dance.

Stacking DPS wasn't a rush strat anyway.  You'd never get there if you didn't go through everything first anyway, and all that changes is we stack the new stuff instead of the old.

I dont like that wolfgangs planar damage skills only made the planar weapons even on him. Should just be base kit, they are really flawed skills.

[Theukon-dos]

21 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Except then Wolfgang's skill tree comes out and he's stacking DPS anyway.  I don't think it will be different with anyone else.  Every character is going to get planar DPS skills tacked onto their combat skills making the whole thing a song and dance.

Stacking DPS wasn't a rush strat anyway.  You'd never get there if you didn't go through everything first anyway, and all that changes is we stack the new stuff instead of the old.

See, I'm starting to think that planar damage was less targeting Wolfgang, despite how much he suffered for it. And moreso targeting Warly sense he's the only real source of stackable damage buffs (Pepper spice and Volt Goat Chaud Froid). Or atleast he was before W.A.R.B.I.S Armor was introduced. Which really just doubles down on my point that Klei could have solved all the issues that Planar Damage is trying to solve just by, y'know, nerfing things.

If Spicy Volt Goat Chaud Froid is actually that OP, I probably could have learned Lua and given it an entirely different effect in about a month tops. And for Klei who actually knows what they're doing? It probably would have been a weekend fix between coming up with a new effect and actually adding it. Tops.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

an entirely different

An entirely different what? Changing the damage multiplier is just 20 seconds of work, and I doubt they wanted to nerf Warly's dishes, the damage boosting ones are already not that good, with chaud froid requiring you to wait for spring and get lucky with the volt goat horn and only lasting five minutes and chili spice being only +20% 

[Theukon-dos]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

An entirely different what? Changing the damage multiplier is just 20 seconds of work, and I doubt they wanted to nerf Warly's dishes, the damage boosting ones are already not that good, with chaud froid requiring you to wait for spring and get lucky with the volt goat horn and only lasting five minutes and chili spice being only +20% 

Effect. An entirely different effect.

[lenship2]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

And moreso targeting Warly sense he's the only real source of stackable damage buffs (Pepper spice and Volt Goat Chaud Froid).

mfw rifts temporarily disable all forms of rain

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

Which really just doubles down on my point that Klei could have solved all the issues that Planar Damage is trying to solve just by, y'know, nerfing things.

 

I think it would have went over a lot better if Klei had announced a global 10% armor nerf across the board - maybe even a larger armor nerf but going back to DS armor stacking rules instead of tacking on this planar stuff.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

An entirely different what? Changing the damage multiplier is just 20 seconds of work, and I doubt they wanted to nerf Warly's dishes, the damage boosting ones are already not that good, with chaud froid requiring you to wait for spring and get lucky with the volt goat horn and only lasting five minutes and chili spice being only +20% 

idk after they gave Wicker complete control over rain maybe they thought Warly was just too much... ya know, for all those speed runners who are swapping characters 3 times just to start a fight...

6 minutes ago, lenship2 said:

mfw rifts temporarily disable all forms of rain

fr tho - why do acid rain and hail not increase global wetness?  I really don't see the argument for this.

[cybers2001]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

See, I'm starting to think that planar damage was less targeting Wolfgang, despite how much he suffered for it. And moreso targeting Warly sense he's the only real source of stackable damage buffs (Pepper spice and Volt Goat Chaud Froid). Or atleast he was before W.A.R.B.I.S Armor was introduced. Which really just doubles down on my point that Klei could have solved all the issues that Planar Damage is trying to solve just by, y'know, nerfing things.

If Spicy Volt Goat Chaud Froid is actually that OP, I probably could have learned Lua and given it an entirely different effect in about a month tops. And for Klei who actually knows what they're doing? It probably would have been a weekend fix between coming up with a new effect and actually adding it. Tops.

It's not really like that. Here's the problem:

Klei wants to introduce new bosses that are tougher, and new weapons to make the tougher boss fights easier. How do you do this without trivializing all the existing bosses? If everything is still on the physical damage system, the only real way to make newer bosses tougher are to have them hit harder or have more health. This means to combat it, they'd either release armor that has even better protection, or weapons that do even more damage. So now the problem is all the old bosses die twice as fast and you lose practically no health while wearing new armor vs them.

The idea behind planar is to make it where new weapons and armor don't automatically break the old content, but do give an edge against new content that is objectively harder for a player that only has access to physical weapons and armor.

That being said, I still don't know why character and food buff multipliers only apply to physical and not both physical and planar. Applying to both would simplify things more, and brightshade swords would still do the same damage as dark swords vs physical bosses.

[Capybara007]

The thing in terraria is that when you get a new and cool weapon you can use it to easily kill previous bosses or enemies

With planar stuff is literally using a darksword again tha can be repaired which is nice but still

Klei should care about old content too, just add more normal damage to planar weapons bruh

51 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

So now the problem is all the old bosses die twice as fast

How is this a problem??

[cybers2001]

13 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

The thing in terraria is that when you get a new and cool weapon you can use it to easily kill previous bosses or enemies

With planar stuff is literally using a darksword again tha can be repaired which is nice but still

Klei should care about old content too, just add more normal damage to planar weapons bruh

How is this a problem??

So you want the optimal play experience to just rush the quickest end-boss (probably fuelweaver, tbh), and just unlock easy mode for the rest of the game?

Or just turn on rifts in the world settings and cruise through everything?

Have you still not yet noticed that Don't Starve is never meant to be a game where you become a god?

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

The idea behind planar is to make it where new weapons and armor don't automatically break the old content, but do give an edge against new content that is objectively harder for a player that only has access to physical weapons and armor.

 

1 hour ago, cybers2001 said:

So you want the optimal play experience to just rush the quickest end-boss (probably fuelweaver, tbh), and just unlock easy mode for the rest of the game?

Or just turn on rifts in the world settings and cruise through everything?

Have you still not yet noticed that Don't Starve is never meant to be a game where you become a god?

What's really crazy about the new zombie bosses is how challenging they are compared to old content - because they have better attack patterns and interactions - and how little it matters that they are planar except that we just aren't allowed to use any of the old equipment...  Planar means pretty much ZERO for how fun or challenging these new bosses are.  Its just a forced versioning.  Trade out darksword1 for lunarsword2.  And that's really the story of this whole arc.

We didn't need new stronger gear.  A dark sword is vanilla damage, the abilities added to BS and other planar gear is good enough to consider them a healthy upgrade without breaking the 68 damage threshold.

[cybers2001]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

 

What's really crazy about the new zombie bosses is how challenging they are compared to old content - because they have better attack patterns and interactions - and how little it matters that they are planar except that we just aren't allowed to use any of the old equipment...  Planar means pretty much ZERO for how fun or challenging these new bosses are.  Its just a forced versioning.  Trade out darksword1 for lunarsword2.  And that's really the story of this whole arc.

We didn't need new stronger gear.  A dark sword is vanilla damage, the abilities added to BS and other planar gear is good enough to consider them a healthy upgrade without breaking the 68 damage threshold.

I haven't yet tried fighting the bosses without brightshade gear, so hard to say how much tougher it would be without it. For sure the brightshade gear does already help tremendously with clearing ruins and fighting fuelweaver, though.

[Valase]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

A dark sword is vanilla damage.

A spear is the vanilla damage (literally).

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

What's really crazy about the new zombie bosses is how challenging they are compared to old content - because they have better attack patterns and interactions - and how little it matters that they are planar except that we just aren't allowed to use any of the old equipment...

You are totally allowed to use old equipment. The only person stopping you from killing them with a spear is yourSKILLISSUEself.

But I would love a world without planar damage/defense, where any new super late game armor has to have 97.5% damage reduction(to be 50% better than our lovely Shadow Armor), every weapon has to have 102 damage at least (50% more than our adored DarkSword), the new bosses need to have about three or four times their current health, because by the time you find them, you are a wolfgang with blowdarts as well as some spicy dessert and of course! You need to be able to craft them by day 30 (50% later than day 20 where you can get your DarkSwords and your Shadow Armor).

Also, they must never outclass any equipment because there is the possibility that someone will not want to make the new weapons and armors.

Jokes aside, the alternative to having planar damage, would be nerfing other items (expecially armor), because if you take a look at the equipment charts, there is not much room for growth for either armor or weapons. Even after all of these patchs, bone armor still one of the better vs planar enemies, and the only thing that holds the thulecite crown back is the fact that you have to take damage first, bcz otherwise, people still would use the same armors as ever for any new challenge.

[joeysora]

46 minutes ago, Valase said:

A spear is the vanilla damage (literally).

You are totally allowed to use old equipment. The only person stopping you from killing them with a spear is yourSKILLISSUEself.

But I would love a world without planar damage/defense, where any new super late game armor has to have 97.5% damage reduction(to be 50% better than our lovely Shadow Armor), every weapon has to have 102 damage at least (50% more than our adored DarkSword), the new bosses need to have about three or four times their current health, because by the time you find them, you are a wolfgang with blowdarts as well as some spicy dessert and of course! You need to be able to craft them by day 30 (50% later than day 20 where you can get your DarkSwords and your Shadow Armor).

Also, they must never outclass any equipment because there is the possibility that someone will not want to make the new weapons and armors.

Jokes aside, the alternative to having planar damage, would be nerfing other items (expecially armor), because if you take a look at the equipment charts, there is not much room for growth for either armor or weapons. Even after all of these patchs, bone armor still one of the better vs planar enemies, and the only thing that holds the thulecite crown back is the fact that you have to take damage first, bcz otherwise, people still would use the same armors as ever for any new challenge.

But all the new stuff is still super good even if it did not have the new damage type

[Yuuko]

50 minutes ago, Valase said:

A spear is the vanilla damage (literally).

So is dark sword.  It is a weapon that is simply damage with no unique quirks.  The only difference between a spear and a dark sword is the amount of damage, they are both quintessentially vanilla weapons.  Unlike the thulecite club who's tentacle perk could be a more useful weapon against stationary targets, or the ham bat with its freshness type durability allowing it to be a very enduring weapon, bright shade is repairable, the scythe stacks damage breaking the 68 damage threshold, etc etc...  None of this needs planar to exist or be appealing.

And yes - certainly they could have simply nerfed armor across the board - and why didn't they?  I firmly believe it would have been taken a lot better then this absolute mess of planar nonsense if they just announced "hey, in order to increase the risk while playing and open up room for growth we're going to give a 10% nerf across the board to all armor types."  They could also open up design space for armor the same way they did with weapons - which ironically they still did with armor just like they did with weapons - every single new armor set would be desirable even if planar were deleted from the system, no need to break existing damage / defense caps...

It would also prevent this arc from being so absolutely focused on a POSTCC world.  A Wolfgang on a pub server that will never see rifts open basically has half a skill tree and no interesting choices.  BUT if we took his base damage multiplier down and gave it back in the skill tree - rather than only messing with it as a planar nerf and buff - all Wolfgangs could have had these interesting choices in how they wanted to focus their play.

[lenship2]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

And yes - certainly they could have simply nerfed armor across the board - and why didn't they?

probably because of the outrage "nerfing" football helmets would create

[cybers2001]

1 hour ago, lenship2 said:

probably because of the outrage "nerfing" football helmets would create

There's no reason to nerf things that make the early game harder for new players.

[Theukon-dos]

6 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

It's not really like that. Here's the problem:

Klei wants to introduce new bosses that are tougher, and new weapons to make the tougher boss fights easier. How do you do this without trivializing all the existing bosses? If everything is still on the physical damage system, the only real way to make newer bosses tougher are to have them hit harder or have more health. This means to combat it, they'd either release armor that has even better protection, or weapons that do even more damage. So now the problem is all the old bosses die twice as fast and you lose practically no health while wearing new armor vs them.

The idea behind planar is to make it where new weapons and armor don't automatically break the old content, but do give an edge against new content that is objectively harder for a player that only has access to physical weapons and armor.

That being said, I still don't know why character and food buff multipliers only apply to physical and not both physical and planar. Applying to both would simplify things more, and brightshade swords would still do the same damage as dark swords vs physical bosses.

Thing is, planar mechanics in and of itself doesn't actually make things tougher. Yeah, you need the new gear for it. But if they gave Deerclops planar protection without any other changes, the average joe would still be able to beat it with their eyes closed and nothing but a spear.

No, if you look at Host of Horrors, all the new bosses aren't tougher than their living counterparts, they're tougher becuase they have more advanced AI and complex attack patterns. If you scraped all the planar muck off of Crystal Deerclops and just made it spawn Y3 onwards, it would still be an incredibly challenging and enjoyable fight because it has a unique and challenging attack patterns.

 

And the reason planar damage isn't effected by modifiers is because it's designed to nerf combat characters. Why else would it not?

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, Valase said:

Jokes aside, the alternative to having planar damage, would be nerfing other items (expecially armor), because if you take a look at the equipment charts, there is not much room for growth for either armor or weapons. Even after all of these patchs, bone armor still one of the better vs planar enemies, and the only thing that holds the thulecite crown back is the fact that you have to take damage first, bcz otherwise, people still would use the same armors as ever for any new challenge.

Wanna circle back to this b/c its very odd people are saying "we need room to scale" but like...  We don't really scale...  We're not placed against this new stuff in the previous gear to feel that it is weaker.  We open a rift and get 1 wave before we're upgraded, its not even as bad as scienceless ruins rush.  We're practically handed the new stuff instantly that is not only compatible with the required damage type but ALSO a clear upgrade from everything we've had before.  There is no time to stew in the "hard" part before you're boosted right up to where we were so I don't feel any sense of progression here.  I don't celebrate new weapons finally tackle these invasive planar mobs b/c the moment they show up we get the rainfall of gear and the transfer is complete.

Its kinda weird that WARBIS gear requires a bigger trek then any of the planar stuff and it only gives physical armor and minimal planar protection lol  Its basically outmoded before its even possible to unlock.