Survivalists vs Megabasers is dumb

[Capybara007]

Since the last beta this polarization has grownth a lot

The survivalist point of view on megabasers is that they want the game to be a friendly compromising game with no challenge or difficulty

The megabaser point of view on survivalist is that they want more grief mechanics even if they dont directly affect them, basically flavor mechanics

It doesnt need someone to be a genius to understand that klei cannot do anything with these arguments, specially considering they are not too experienced with the game itself which is reasonable because i dont expect them to play a 1000 day world to see how it goes with the new updates

I just wanna commit this mortal sin as some may call it here on the forums and say that this is the objective opinion:

Klei, we want more late game challenges that require skill, strategy, can be mastered, we want rng inputs, where you are given different options and must make a choice on the one that benefits you the more, or punishes you the less. We dont want rng output, where the result is not controlled by the players despite how much effort they put in the game, rng output is used by lootboxes in other games if that makes anyone feel less friendly towards it

That is my rant, if you want to tell me you want to be tortured and punished with nothing you can virtually do about it you can say it now

Edited October 15 by Capybara007

[Nnumber3]

What if, we apply some nuance to this argument and say that...

Both sides have some... not great points, no need to be an extremist and pick sides like a child, they are like the extremist groups of today and history, those always go well, just on a smaller scale.

Most people are right in the middle, and not a "Survivalist" or a "MegaBaser"

I feel that this argument is spearheaded by like 5 people on each side, like a elementary school squabble.

They seem to think Joe himself came down to them from the heavens and told them the "correct" way to play the game. In a SANDBOX GAME.

Moral? No need to be extreme and pick sides for a random squabble you had on a Edgy Rick server.

In your words, this argument dumb.

[GenomeSquirrel]

I don’t want a late game to even exist …at least not in an in an unrushable form.

Think how getting fast tentacle spikes used to be, and how relevant they held up. I considered it a unique part of the games identity, but what’s dead is dead.

[Habakkuk]

1 hour ago, Capybara007 said:

Since the last beta this polarization has grownth a lot

The survivalist point of view on megabasers is that they want the game to be a friendly compromising game with no challenge or difficulty

The megabaser point of view on survivalist is that they want more grief mechanics even if they dont directly affect them, basically flavor mechanics

It doesnt need someone to be a genius to understand that klei cannot do anything with these arguments, specially considering they are not too experienced with the game itself which is reasonable because i dont expect them to play a 1000 day world to see how it goes with the new updates

I just wanna commit this mortal sin as some may call it here on the forums and say that this is the objective opinion:

Klei, we want more late game challenges that require skill, strategy, can be mastered, we want rng inputs, where you are given different options and must make a choice on the one that benefits you the more, or punishes you the less. We dont want rng output, where the result is not controlled by the players despite how mich wffort they put in the game, rng output is used by lootboxes in other games if that makes anyone feel less friendly towards it

That is my rant, if you want to tell me you want to be tortured and punished with nothing you can virtually do about it you can say it now

This is a very important debate, and my solution to this is: 

New content like Hamlet and Shipwrecked, or new content like a expansion or a new DLC that will bring stuff that reward us for playing in a balanced way. For example:

New DLC with new biomes, mobs, bosses, characters and lore that give us tools that allow us to farm more resources, walk faster and reduce the amount of times we need to make the same tasks.

A example: a new biome with a new boss, this boss have a challenger fight and drops a item that will allow us to create a hat that will allow us to drop more rocks when farming stone fruits.

DST is divided in three stages:

1.  Survive: here you learn how to survive seasons, early bosses and get food, get healed and get sanity.
2.  Exploration: here you make the quests, explore all the map(including caves, ocean and islands) and kill all bosses.
3.  Megabase: this is the late game, here you enter in a creative mode and uses your imagination to control the world around you instead of survive it.

Most of the the player stops in the second stage, and only a feel ritch to the megabasing stage.

To make everyone happy we need new content that will challenge people in all stages and will make the live of thoses that are building their megabases easier. 

Some suggestions:

• Coffee and Sleek Hat.
• A way to use the The Lazy Deserter alone.
• Something to petrify trees when we want.
• Something to increase the drop of items from everything. 
• New bosses and mobs where is empty like ocean and some cave areas.
• New content in the sea.
• New content in the caves.
• Ways to mass produce and collect items, maybe automation in farms.
   

Thank you for raise this debate.

But this is the best argument:
 

Edited October 15 by Habakkuk

[chirsg]

i just want to build houses. civil war be damned.

[Mike23Ua]

The TL:DR of Survivalist vs MegaBaser Arguements

Megabaser: I’ve done everything, I’ve seen everything and even though 90% of the game is optional content I can opt to do or ignore, I’ve mastered the survivalist part of the game. Also any new challenges added to the game must have a permanent solution so I can make said solution and permanently ignore the problem.

Survivalist: Maybe some things SHOULDN’T have permanent Solutions? Maybe some things SHOULD challenge your survival & give the middle finger to you and your base like Uncompromising Modes Tornadoes? Maybe some things shouldn’t be optional?

Both sides: My sides right, your sides Wrong.

Klei Devs: This is an absolute headache.. what do we do?

Me: Actually use those world Gen presets and toggles so that people who want uncompromising mode can have uncompromising mode without having to be Nerfed into oblivion to accommodate for any other playstyle?

MegaBasers: Turning it off and not dealing with it isn’t a solution.

that’s the entire forums in a nutshell.

[Habakkuk]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

The TL:DR of Survivalist vs MegaBaser Arguements

Megabaser: I’ve done everything, I’ve seen everything and even though 90% of the game is optional content I can opt to do or ignore, I’ve mastered the survivalist part of the game. Also any new challenges added to the game must have a permanent solution so I can make said solution and permanently ignore the problem.

Survivalist: Maybe some things SHOULDN’T have permanent Solutions? Maybe some things SHOULD challenge your survival & give the middle finger to you and your base like Uncompromising Modes Tornadoes? Maybe some things shouldn’t be optional?

Both sides: My sides right, your sides Wrong.

Klei Devs: This is an absolute headache.. what do we do?

Me: Actually use those world Gen presets and toggles so that people who want uncompromising mode can have uncompromising mode without having to be Nerfed into oblivion to accommodate for any other playstyle?

MegaBasers: Turning it off and not dealing with it isn’t a solution.

that’s the entire forums in a nutshell.

A new DLC would make everyone happy.

[Capybara007]

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

 

Why do you choose what is challenging and what is not to megabasers when you never killed any bosses or experienced any megabase world

Despite what you think we want more challenge, we simply dont gaslight ourlselves into thinking a metheor inevitably destroying everything is fun or challenging lmao

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

Why do you choose what is challenging and what is not to megabasers when you never killed any bosses or experienced any megabase world

Despite what you think we want more challenge, we simply dont gaslight ourlselves into thinking a metheor inevitably destroying everything is fun or challenging lmao

I’m tired of this arguement, and I don’t really care what you find fun or challenging, point is uncompromising Mode the mod adds weather effects that have no solution and is intended to destroy your base and grief you, because believe it or not.. some people actually do like to have the odds stacked against them unfairly and be punished. That’s literally their idea of what’s “fun” to them.

Its one of the core gameplay aspects of RogueLite/Like genre games.

But DST ain’t one of them. It could be though.. with an optional mode that probably takes inspiration from the mod of the same name.

Edited October 15 by Mike23Ua

[Habakkuk]

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The TL:DR of Survivalist vs MegaBaser Arguements

Megabaser: I’ve done everything, I’ve seen everything and even though 90% of the game is optional content I can opt to do or ignore, I’ve mastered the survivalist part of the game. Also any new challenges added to the game must have a permanent solution so I can make said solution and permanently ignore the problem.

Survivalist: Maybe some things SHOULDN’T have permanent Solutions? Maybe some things SHOULD challenge your survival & give the middle finger to you and your base like Uncompromising Modes Tornadoes? Maybe some things shouldn’t be optional?

Both sides: My sides right, your sides Wrong.

Klei Devs: This is an absolute headache.. what do we do?

Me: Actually use those world Gen presets and toggles so that people who want uncompromising mode can have uncompromising mode without having to be Nerfed into oblivion to accommodate for any other playstyle?

MegaBasers: Turning it off and not dealing with it isn’t a solution.

that’s the entire forums in a nutshell.

We need in game solutions to in game problems. Turn things off and on is good, but solve things in game is more fun.

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m tired of this arguement, and I don’t really care what you find fun or challenging, point is uncompromising Mode the mod adds weather effects that have no solution and is intended to destroy your base and grief you, because believe it or not.. some people actually do like to have the odds stacked against them unfairly and be punished. That’s literally their idea of what’s “fun” to them.

Its one of the core gameplay aspects of RogueLite/Like genre games.

But DST ain’t one of them. It could be though.. with an optional mode that probably takes inspiration from the mod of the same name.

If there is no solution it is not a survival anymore, you need solutions in order to survive. 

Edited October 15 by Habakkuk

[Capybara007]

22 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

Mike ive literally made this thread with the idea of being the most objective person ever and yet you keep using this strawman that megabasers are these lobotomized goobers that dont want any challenge

You have been told multiple times that destroying a decorative garden with walls and koalaphants does nothing, you are not gonna struggle more because of it, you just get screwed in the name of inmersion for players that hate to see a player in dst to thrive instead of dying on winter

"Im tired of this argument" you have never disproven it though? You havent explained nobody on these forums why you find it fun when other players get their decoration destroyed, or their mobs that serve no function killed, just because you like to see stuff die? You know you are ignoring the fun the other players might have when doing these things? Ever got out of your "uncompromising" bubble to see how others enjoy the game?

And about uncomp mode, you have not played it, period. It was turned on for a big dedicated server as far as i remember and players inmediately left before day 20 which has given the uncomp mode mod and team a bad rep on these forums

I love uncompromising mode and its devs but implying as you do that there is a vast majority of players that want to get inevitably destroyed is dumb

And stop being dramatic and saying "its too late" like dst is through some apocaliptic process

Edited October 15 by Capybara007

[Nnumber3]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m tired of this arguement, and I don’t really care what you find fun or challenging, point is uncompromising Mode the mod adds weather effects that have no solution and is intended to destroy your base and grief you, because believe it or not.. some people actually do like to have the odds stacked against them unfairly and be punished. That’s literally their idea of what’s “fun” to them.

Its one of the core gameplay aspects of RogueLite/Like genre games.

But DST ain’t one of them. It could be though.. with an optional mode that probably takes inspiration from the mod of the same name.

Sigh, you really don't get it.

You know, Uncompromising does not mean being unfair, or even difficult, right? (bear-ger with me, I'm going to blow your mind)

It means, from the dictionary: "showing an unwillingness to make concessions to others, especially by changing one's ways or opinions"

This means the game will not hold your hand, which the game does.

How does that mean that the game should destroy all your progress with no counter play?

It also does NOT MEAN THAT GAME SHOULD BE SUPER HARD AND UNFAIR, Uncomp does not mean that. Thought all survivalists should know that.

  what's your point? you just said its a core of a rouge Lites, then just said Dst is not a Rouge lite? That was a worthless sentence.

You have said it, its not that hard, change the settings?

We are not a hivemind of you, no one wants your ideas, your anti base, not just anti mega base, but anti base at all, like having a base is impossible with your ideas.

You seem to like demonizing Megabasers for some reason, oh no we don't play like you means we play wrong.

Optional mode *cough Lights out *cough PvP servers" Cough.

Is there a reason you always ignore the sandbox part of the game?

Your being rather Uncompromising with your opinions lately mike.

[JustAFlower]

2 hours ago, Habakkuk said:

A new DLC would make everyone happy.

As long as it's free, I'm sure that Klei doesn't want to completely separate parts of the community.

Edit :You don't have to go on pure madness fuel mike.

Edited October 15 by JustAFlower
he be mean

[Frosty_Mentos]

The thing is that the base game of DST now is getting a bit too thick in content layer with many many many now mechanics that could destroy base or general progress if you don't deal with those things fast enough or have no ways to prevent their effects. Since walls are just decorations and seeing them destroyed makes one's heart ache who is a builder.

Surface gotten tons of content over the years while caves barely were touched apart adding major things like a whole new archive area and lunar grotto. Earlier updates were ruin based one's in the new reign times, so there has to be more additions sometime hopefully.

There's a lot of surface still available and there's always hope for oceanic expansion someday if their engine is able to do that is what I wonder most.

The point is - destructive world behaviors are one thing and we got plenty of those if you wanna count so as do we have plenty of decent counters to that. But asking for them to remain non stoppable is like asking for nothing besides wanting people to have fun less.

The game has plenty of rolercoaster moments but there are times where we wanna slow down and enjoy our progression and do other things but just survival. The game's solutions brought to everything already covers most survival needs, we just lack the new enemies or structures that we could be dealing with as new threats in the vast world that they could be infesting at.

Megabasing shouldn't be a problem to anyone for that's the aftermath of our many hours spent grinding and bringing those resources to good uses. It's just the result of people who knows how to use them unlike many who don't do it and just wanna hang out and do the things that exists.

I think Klei is doing a decent or even a really good job balancing all those aspects. But once the game feels like it's getting overcrowded it's better then world on new world generations and settings from them to do something new at that point.

[Shosuko]

There are 2 trajectories a "survival" game can take.  One is a terminal trajectory where you start about as strong as can be and mount your defense against the world which will continue to escalate until at some point you WILL be wiped out.  The other is to allow the players to thrive.  You start weak and must put the pieces together but once you've done this the challenge plateaus and you are free to kinda do whatever.

Neither is "more challenging" inherently but they both satisfy a different fantasy.  If someone defines their journey by how long they lasted until they were pushed out they will want the terminal style.  If someone defines their journey by how many things they can do in the game they are obviously going to want the game to plateau so they can continue just doing things.  Both can be difficult and arguing about that is senseless - the only thing to argue about is where you want the game to end.  Horribly difficult and challenging games can end in a plateau where you are allowed to continue playing and enjoying the game having "won."

This is the main issue with the "survivalist vs megabasers" debate.  Those aren't the correct terms for these people.  Survival is critical to the game whether you want to speed run, build a base, tackle hard bosses, or whatever.  Everyone who plays DST is a survivalist.  Everyone wants a game that is more engaging, challenging, and fun.  NO ONE is against DST getting new challenging things to do.  "Survivalists" is literally 100% of the player base.

The difference is whether we want a game that escalates to a point where our world ends or plateaus giving us a reprieve to continue playing and enjoying the mechanics for what they are.  For people who want the world to escalate and force us out things like acid rain, hail, and a constant influx of harassment and upkeep are great because if the world isn't forced to end we'll at least get so annoyed with all of the tedium and upkeep that we just turn it off anyway...

Games that terminate with a guaranteed loss are a real and valid game type - and I get that many players enjoy seeing how long they can last before getting wiped, knowing full well they will be wiped at some point.  For many players there is likely an anti-climactic element to simply having beaten all of the things in the game and not having it really end.  However DS and DST have always plateaued to an open sandbox.  The closest thing we got to terminal trajectory was the hound waves increasing in frequency and intensity over time.  Nothing else in the game has ever tried to force you to die and for your world to end.

 

This is the fundamental disconnect I think Klei has in their current development arc.  I think they want to create some type of NG+ mode where we enter a terminal trajectory to satisfy this section of the playerbase (and the developers driving this change)...  but there is a strong dissonance with this and literally everything DS/DST from its inception up to now.  They can't properly give use a terminal trajectory without changing the core game play loop yet for some reason...  they really are trying...  and it will be a failure.  At a point they will need to admit that DST is not that type of game, and they will need to go back in and bandaid in some fixes to allow the game to plateau again (hence adding checks before starting the NG stuff, pillars for enhanced cave ins, massive concessions for acid rain and 100% concessions incoming for hail)

Edited October 15 by Shosuko

[Guille6785]

I wish the game had a "classic mode" which is how it is now and a "hardcore" mode that doubled down on the original premise of trying to survive as long as possible with the game getting harder, IMO that's the best of both worlds since many features that would result in a more fun survival challenge would just make indefinite survival more annoying

[Shosuko]

3 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I wish the game had a "classic mode" which is how it is now and a "hardcore" mode that doubled down on the original premise of trying to survive as long as possible with the game getting harder, IMO that's the best of both worlds since many features that would result in a more fun survival challenge would just make indefinite survival more annoying

The problem with this is that you could not do it by introducing new content to one mode that the other cannot have.  If it were a timer then content that takes longer becomes "not a part" of the hardcore experience, similarly anything added to challenge the hardcore players that isn't included in the sandbox mode becomes "not a part" of the sandbox experience...

I think the only way they could approach this with the game as is might be to cut off all forms of revival...  but even then the players who want that "hardcore" experience would get through all of the content, not die, and not be satisfied.  idk what they could really change to make the game be that...  I think DS and DST just isn't the right core experience for such a thing.  Klei would do better just making a whole 'nother game.

Edited October 15 by Shosuko

[GelatinousCube]

59 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Snip

 

51 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Snip

Extremely well worded and thought out, well done. 
 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

The problem with this is that you could not do it by introducing new content to one mode that the other cannot have.  If it were a timer then content that takes longer becomes "not a part" of the hardcore experience, similarly anything added to challenge the hardcore players that isn't included in the sandbox mode becomes "not a part" of the sandbox experience...

I think the only way they could approach this with the game as is might be to cut off all forms of revival...  but even then the players who want that "hardcore" experience would get through all of the content, not die, and not be satisfied.  idk what they could really change to make the game be that...  I think DS and DST just isn't the right core experience for such a thing.  Klei would do better just making a whole 'nother game.

Not necessarily, Klei has revealed that they have hired a few people to do Specific tasks within Klei’s Development Teams, such as.. having a team of people who’s ONLY job is to improve the Quality of the game on Consoles.

They've also let it slip that they hired on Zarklord to help with yet to be announced “secret projects” they’ve always wanted to do with DST, So these two examples clearly imply that they have people doing one thing while other people do another.

So if Zark wanted to get a team together and create a Hardcore Mode for DST, that mode would be separated from the team creating Default content.

Why do these forums assume that we can only have one or the other but not both?

Edited October 15 by Mike23Ua

[Shosuko]

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

Why do these forums assume that we can only have one or the other but not both?

Civil unrest.

This is a hot button issue that comes up frequently and passionately from both sides.  Obviously Klei wants to please both parties, but how best to do this?  As I said in the other post I don't think the answer can include separating content unless it was a completely separate game.  Anything added to the "mega base" setting would upset the people who use the "survivalist" setting and vice versa.  And why should anybody miss out anyway?

I think gutting res and healing is probably the only path towards a terminal game loop, but even then - once you do that death-less run you're in the same spot...  people already do deathless runs.

Edited October 15 by Shosuko

[Wonz]

I don't like how many things are unlockable through ruins. 

Why must I go there and just then to pearl to make furniture?

Edited October 15 by Wonz

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, Wonz said:

I don't like how many things are unlockable through ruins. 

Why must I go there and just then to pearl to make furniture?

Yeah, why for a wooden chair?

[Capybara007]

6 hours ago, Shosuko said:

The problem with this is that you could not do it by introducing new content to one mode that the other cannot have. 

I believe you can

There is this cool roguelike/lite called undermine where once you beat the game you unlock hexes which are basically run modifiers to make the game harder

These hexes are really fun, like making a headhunter come and kill you every now and then, or making all items invisible, or disabling all unlockeable features from the roguelite part

Klei could do something similar, various hexes that change specific parts of the game

[Ohan]

12 hours ago, Habakkuk said:

 

Teehee thats my kitchen in the bottom right i posted ages ago  where did u find it lol 

Im not a megabaser though. I just like my medium sized base to be pretty 

[ShadowDuelist]

I think this was sort of the general idea behind "survival" and "endless" modes, even though it got watered down as the years went by and now they are really not that different.

But they should probably go back that route: a game mode you pick from the start, that makes survival hard and your whole point is probably "see how long can you go" or "how fast can you do X thing", to a point where the madness of the world becomes almost unbeatable (EG: floods, highly destructive weather, the world slowly breaking into islands, the caves slowly being flooded, huge armies of warrior pigmen attacking, nightmares popping, lunar zombies slowly taking over the whole map, etc) and another game mode where you can still face everything the game has, but the game gets easier as time goes by. (Which is how the game is turning now)
 

A game mode super hard would also reward speedrunning stuff because the faster you can hoard endgame items, the higher will be your chances to survive longer all that the world will throw at you. You should always eventually die and lose everything, and the point is to see how long can you fare in those unfair conditions. And I don't think they are mutually exclusive in terms of content, megabasers will get all the same content, except that in one type of world the world will not be unfair or too destructive to them.

And after you've played a 1500 days nightmarish world of survival, you probably will want to chill for a while in a megabase world, or the opposite will apply too, after you've chilled in a 5k days megabase you'll probably want to go to your other world, to think how to get grass in a world where everything is burning and you are stuck in a small cave overrun by monsters, acid and lakes with bitey stuff.

Edited October 15 by ShadowDuelist