The game getting easier is an idea that doesnt make sense

[Capybara007]

Before people start calling me out on how in am neglecting negative opinions, i am not, you can think whatever you want, im not klei's PR manager

They have done stuff with the game i dont like, i still think planar dmg and defense is pointless, and i think more than half of the boss fights they created are mediocre

I wasnt too much vocal on my negative opinions because i dont like spreading bs on a decision that i know is not gona generate any response, you can do it and its fine, nothing wrong with it

What im trying to do with this thread is to simply call out an idea that its kinda, annoying? for people to believe? Klei is making the game easier to attract new players 

The problem i have with this idea is that it just highlights the problem i feel the dst forums have which is just making assumptions and opinions by reading the patchnotes and not actually playing the game, in the firsts days of the beta you could see lots of people saying how the characters will now have extremely op abilities and comparing them to gods aswell as saying saying how this game is now an rpg mmo (mmo does not mean skill trees) you also see people dissapointed woodie no longer has his downside despite woodie's downside not being something fun you could play around or change your decisions like wigfrid or wanda's

The argument of the game becoming easier for begineers crumbles when you literally just go to a stream of some new player who is dying on their first hound wave or making fistfull of jam, dont be ridiculous, woodie being able to craft a wood helmet is not gonna make their game last after winter, newbies dont even know how to use console so they cant even get all insight points day 1 which means almost all their first autumn will be the same as before this beta

Klei is not fully innocent here though, they have failed to actually give lategame players a good challenge to keep them entertained, right now most megabasers are just chilling while farming the blights and the brighshades with no risk

im not saying that klei should make megabasers life impossible, even i enjoy it, but the lack of lategame challenging (and fun) challenges just leads to people asking for more difficulty altogether, which is not what this game needs at all, another early game challenge that you are gonna dominate in 10 minutes while the new player is gonna die a thousand times wont solve anything, a new skill tree that the new player doesnt have even time to learn wont ruin everything either

that is all, shopcat react this now

[Spino43]

2 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

The argument of the game becoming easier for begineers crumbles when you literally just go to a stream of some new player who is dying on their first hound wave or making fistfull of ja

A lot of people complaining about difficulties never place themselves in newbies's foot.

Ironically, the place they initially started too.

[Masked Koopa]

I feel like something good would be a challenge that operates on a power level that requires you to go all-in on gear and prep. Right now, most challenges require you to sort of "underprepare", because if you actually use all the tools available to you it will become trivial, like the Warly buffs you can get by using the celestial portal. Some sort of area that is similar to ruins, but you'll have to bring thulecite armour, warly buffs, lots of healing, etc to stand a chance of overcoming it. Right now all of our challenges are boss fights, which are inherently kind of one-note because a singular enemy is both more cheesable, and more by the books. Ruins generation will vary quite a lot, and challenges you with ranged mobs, high HP mobs, hordes of enemies, etc.

I'm not even saying ruins are some perfect paragon of difficulty or anything, I just think an area that is similar to them would keep long-term players busy for longer than these rifts have. Hell, you could even convert the way the rifts work right now into something more similar - maybe the rift takes over the entire biome, and you have to fight your way to the center to deal with it.

[Antynomity]

It has been getting easier, without actually helping new players in a good way in discovering all the game has to offer, the AFW questline is still cryptic af, same with CC, no matter how much power they give the characters it won't help new players actually stick with the game and discover all that stuff to begin with. The game getting easier isn't a bad thing but the way they are going about it I dislike a lot aka pump as much as possible power into all characters instead of items you can get through progressing and making those questlines with that progression easier to discover fully.

You are right though a lot of people don't even test before they play. Sorry, but if you're on a platform that can't playtest betas you should probably just not talk on a matter that you physically can't understand because playtesting yourself is so much better than watching a video or live stream on it.

[Fufuji]

IMO Klei doesn't intend to make the game easier by making this Skill Tree system, nor do they wish to attract new players more with Skill Trees. 

The game becoming easier is just one of this unimplemented and rough Skill Tree system's side effect. And it as well don't serve the purpose of supporting newbies. Only a few insight points can be obtained in the first autumn, assuming that one can successfully survive the autumn. Skill Tree itself does not provide enough hint to make newbies understand which skill helps them best, and most skills in this beta update (especially Wormwood's) don't actually help surviving in early gameplay. 

Another side effect is that the Skill Tree system binds new players to the character they have earned insight points. Imagine I am a new player: If I have earned full 15 insight points for Woodie, this character is now complete and stronger than others. On switching characters, I must earn the insight points once more and during which my gameplay becomes more difficult. So why bother? 

[Capybara007]

56 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Some sort of area that is similar to ruins, but you'll have to bring thulecite armour, warly buffs, lots of healing, etc to stand a chance of overcoming it. 

I would love a lategame boss (doesnt necesarily need to be connected with the moon or the nightmares) that its extremely hard to beat, but as i stated earlier, klei is not good at designing bosses

Grounded's infected broodmother is my fav example of a far endgame boss that even with the most advanced gear and decent skill is extremely easy to loose and yet nobody complains its unfair 

13 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

It has been getting easier, without actually helping new players in a good way in discovering all the game has to offer, the AFW questline is still cryptic af, same with CC, no matter how much power they give the characters it won't help new players actually stick with the game and discover all that stuff to begin with. The game getting easier isn't a bad thing but the way they are going about it I dislike a lot aka pump as much as possible power into all characters instead of items you can get through progressing and making those questlines with that progression easier to discover fully.

Fair enough

[-Variant]

4 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

The argument of the game becoming easier for begineers crumbles when you literally just go to a stream of some new player who is dying on their first hound wave or making fistfull of jam, dont be ridiculous, woodie being able to craft a wood helmet is not gonna make their game last after winter, newbies dont even know how to use console so they cant even get all insight points day 1 which means almost all their first autumn will be the same as before this beta

Klei is not fully innocent here though, they have failed to actually give lategame players a good challenge to keep them entertained, right now most megabasers are just chilling while farming the blights and the brighshades with no risk

Glad someone brought this up.

I don't actually think DST will ever land in a spot where someone brand new to the series is going to play without struggling.
I simply do not see it happening.

I feel like a lot of folks need to end up specifying what they mean.
The game isn't getting easier, I can't say it's getting harder either, on that note.

I think a lot of folks have good-ish intentions when speaking but a lot of it gets lost in the clutter and wording choices.

For example; I, personally, am in the boat of not having any well made late-game threats to keep me entertained.
On top of that, I think a lot of the recent additions have been very awkwardly balanced, let's say Woodies' treeguard perk, for example.
I think being able to mass produce and summon like a bajillion treeguards for very little work is a bit skewed in the balancing department.
I see this as poorly balanced but you could not physically get me to say this alone is making the game easier.
I think other people might feel this same way, too, though I'm thinking the lines are simply getting muddled. There's a lot going on!

[RoughCactus69]

Hehe. I think Influenced this post.

Sincerely,

Cactus

2 hours ago, Spino43 said:

A lot of people complaining about difficulties never place themselves in newbies's foot.

Ironically, the place they initially started too.

This isn't always true. I KNOW it's still a hard game. But that doesn't stop the fact that the game is getting easier over time. Just because it's GETTING easier, doesn't mean it IS easy.

Sincerely,

Cactus 

[Evelo]

Really sick of catering to the mega baser community. Celestial Portal, Wormwood's plant making skills, pillars, portals spawning and boulders falling away from structures. At this point Klei is effectively saying, "If you aren't mega basing you aren't our target audience." It really is a shame I feel.

Edit: Because I am sure this will be used against me in the future (understandably so mind you), I have changed my opinion. Well partially, not with the "wormwood's plant making skills" or Wilson's Transmutation, make that stuff a station so the characters can have skills that do stuff pretty please. But with the mega base audience. Their fun can still be enjoyed even whilst I have my fun playing in a vastly different style. They do not intertwine as much as I thought after reflection. Apologies for anyone who took offense to it.

[goatt]

“The game getting easier” means new players struggle less, not that they stop struggling.

 

And this is obvious for new players.

- more explicit hints from skill tree

- we have stronger characters.

- over the years, we have stronger foods such as kelp, banana bushes, ocean fish (infinite free veggie for pierogis, super easy sanity). Even drying racks and honey become much less important. More natural berry bushes are left untouched for new comers in public servers.

- resource regrowth.

- now we even have in-game wikis to help new players. The wiki that constantly ding ding you every time you see a new item.

[cropo]

5 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I'm not even saying ruins are some perfect paragon of difficulty or anything, I just think an area that is similar to them would keep long-term players busy for longer than these rifts have. .

Highly agree, I've said this a billion times any chance I get but I have wanted a ruins 2.0 area since Shipwrecked. The Volcano had an entire world generation loading screen to it like the ruins did, but it was simply a big dump of godly resources and a crafting station plopped in it. Hamlet had the perfect excuse to have a ruins, and it kinda does have literal ruins but nothing compared to the actual ruins in RoG.

 

The ruins were the ultimate test, it was always dark, nightmare creatures could attack you regardless of sanity, there was a time-cycle where everything went absolutely insane and tried to kill you, the clockworks had a good variety to them. One being basically unkiteable, one being traditional, and one being kiteable if you wanted to waste time and risk being vulnerable when the nightmare cycle started again.

 

The resource and loot you got in it were also fittingly thematic for mastering. A staff that made light, making nighttime less of a burden(even if the staff sucked in its original implementation). A weapon that increased your movement speed without a sanity penalty like the common dark swords you'd have. a refuelable amulet that made light and increased movement speed, a turret that shoots enemies on your behalf that heals and maintains its own well-being...

 

The challenges(at the time) and rewards of the ruins were so good back then. I've really been hoping we would have gotten a ''lunar ruins'' equivalent, with unique challenges, enemies, a good boss, and thematic loot that uniquely broke the rules and traditions of the game like the ruins stuff did.

 

Quote

Really sick of catering to the mega baser community. Celestial Portal, Wormwood's plant making skills, pillars, portals spawning and boulders falling away from structures. At this point Klei is effectively saying, "If you aren't mega basing you aren't our target audience." It really is a shame I feel.

Do you really think boulders randomly falling on your structures ''just cuz lol'' is a challenge? I think that's just dumb, like really dumb. Imagine if you were playing a game, and in order to ''challenge'' yourself you had your friend knock the controller out of your hands at random intervals.  If Don't Starve was made that way back when it first came out, I never would have played it. 

[Mysterious box]

I mean I don't think there can be a argument against the fact the game became easier the thing often overlooked though is that it's constantly become easier in the late early-to mid game not the beginning with the only real big boost to the beginning being the powerful character refreshes we got previously. 

[Capybara007]

More powerful characters do not mean more easy gameplay, a new player with the easiest character like wigfrid or wendy will die a lot still because they do not know how to make it past winter

My problem isnt the people saying that the game is getting easier, my problem is that some people will not understand what they ask for and simply say the game needs more challenge altogether, and if klei just listens to this and gives a new giga hound wave on day 10 for experienced players the new players will have another reason to quit

Klei needs to make the endgame harder, but also the early game easier, if you think klei making the game begineer friendly is a bad thing, you are caring too much on someone else's experience instead of yours

and by easier early game i dont mean this cookie cutter "this character has received a buff" i mean actual helpful hints to stuff the new players are never gonna figure out like fw or cc quest, probably back then in dont starve the most obscure thing was knowing ksack existed meanwhile you now got new players that dont even know you can build a boat to explore the sea

[Cr4zyFl4mes]

12 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

The argument of the game becoming easier for begineers

I don't think many people are arguing it is getting easier for beginners. I, for example, am arguing that it is getting easier for myself.

I don't like that Klei is systematically removing things you had to plan around in the past (probably in the name of QoL). With woodie for example, first it was the spoilage time of the idols, now removing their initial cost and it gives hunger. Before, you had to plan ahead, think about the spoiling butterflies in your inventory and if it will give you enough hunger and health when you turn back. Now you don't need to care at all. Do you not see how it is objectively easier? Do you not see the logic? How does this "not make sense"?

And i don't blame Klei for this. Perhaps in the Woodie example, they wanted to make the game less grindy. Unfortunately, as a byproduct, I don't need to care about plenty of stuff i had to before.

[Wonz]

Idk about wolf but woodie and worm are still below perkless wanda. You still choose as hard the game is, actually nothing changed if you decide to not exchange insight for perks.  

[Capybara007]

6 minutes ago, Cr4zyFl4mes said:

 

i agree with you, klei forgetting about downsides is not a good thing, i recall in the wolfgang beta he would loose mightiness on hit but they changed it (it didnt made sense but they couldve done something similar)

i was personally adressing a viewpoint on how woodie loosing his curse downside was a bad thing which is at the same level of "celestial champion giving infinite light is a bad thing"

[RoughCactus69]

On 7/19/2023 at 9:59 AM, Capybara007 said:

More powerful characters do not mean more easy gameplay, a new player with the easiest character like wigfrid or wendy will die a lot still because they do not know how to make it past winter

My problem isnt the people saying that the game is getting easier, my problem is that some people will not understand what they ask for and simply say the game needs more challenge altogether, and if klei just listens to this and gives a new giga hound wave on day 10 for experienced players the new players will have another reason to quit

Klei needs to make the endgame harder, but also the early game easier, if you think klei making the game begineer friendly is a bad thing, you are caring too much on someone else's experience instead of yours

and by easier early game i dont mean this cookie cutter "this character has received a buff" i mean actual helpful hints to stuff the new players are never gonna figure out like fw or cc quest, probably back then in dont starve the most obscure thing was knowing ksack existed meanwhile you now got new players that dont even know you can build a boat to explore the sea

By lord. People don't understand what I am saying are they?

 

I'm not saying the game IS easy. I'm saying the game is getting EASIER over time.

 

Nor am I asking for a "Giga Hound Wave on Day 10." That in itself is a dumb idea. I don't think anyone saying "The game is getting easier" wants that at all. The game is getting easier. Not saying it is an easy game. I never said that. But over time the game is getting easier whether you think it is or not. 

 

Sincerely,

Cactus

 

[Mike23Ua]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:09 AM, Capybara007 said:

i agree with you, klei forgetting about downsides is not a good thing, i recall in the wolfgang beta he would loose mightiness on hit but they changed it (it didnt made sense but they couldve done something similar)

i was personally adressing a viewpoint on how woodie loosing his curse downside was a bad thing which is at the same level of "celestial champion giving infinite light is a bad thing"

Klei says it didnt make sense, players say it didn’t make sense but- I am a writer and a life long WWE fan, you get a big strong giant (like the Big Show) who’s a complete powerhouse but also a complete coward- he feels strong… up until the moment enemies start hitting back.

Its not a physical strength thing, it’s a mental brainwave thing.. and if Wolfgang cowards in fear of “little mouse” then He should’ve probably coward in fear when big scary things start hitting him.

Wolfgang ISNT a Fearless warrior, his actual traits state him as a Coward..

So yes- Losing Mightiness by being hit made sense, but… it also probably changed the characters playstyle too drastically that they may as well have made a new character out of it.

Not to mention we already got Wanda who gets older when getting smacked around so there’s that..

[Jakepeng99]

On 7/19/2023 at 9:23 AM, Evelo said:

Really sick of catering to the mega baser community. Celestial Portal, Wormwood's plant making skills, pillars, portals spawning and boulders falling away from structures. At this point Klei is effectively saying, "If you aren't mega basing you aren't our target audience." It really is a shame I feel.

They made boulders fall on structurew again. Also what does pillars have to do with it?

[Evelo]

5 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

They made boulders fall on structurew again. Also what does pillars have to do with it?

TIL. Cool. Just that pillars were added to comfort the playerbase that participates in that. Idk it's been a while. Little hazy.

[Mike23Ua]

On 7/19/2023 at 3:23 AM, Evelo said:

Really sick of catering to the mega baser community. Celestial Portal, Wormwood's plant making skills, pillars, portals spawning and boulders falling away from structures. At this point Klei is effectively saying, "If you aren't mega basing you aren't our target audience." It really is a shame I feel.

The problem with this is that Klei literally has like 5 different game modes you can pick from prior to hosting a world…

Yet they keep trying to make a “One Size Fits All” solution to how they design the game.

Personally I enjoyed the game MORE when being “Careless” in a World meant I could potentially cause certain mobs or resources to go completely and entirely extinct.

But Klei keeps catering to this end-game mega baser crowd: Oh.. Bearger ran through killing all the Catcoon dens? They’ll respawn after 20 days, Accidentally let Volt Goats go extinct? Chase a Hunt Trail in a rain storm and you have a chance to spawn a new batch in. Summer Wildfires Burned away a ton of Mushroom rings? No worries they’ll regrow!

The world has no consequences for our actions…

Use to I actually CARED when a ring of Mushrooms went up in a blaze, I felt a significant loss… but now? It’s like Meh- it’ll regrow.

And yes sure there are “options” to choose to disable regrowth for mushrooms or whatever, but if I’m playing a game mode labeled as SURVIVAL then I shouldn’t have resources regrowing like I’m playing on Relaxed or Endless.

That is Klei’s single biggest mistake- and I’ll continue to call them out on it until there’s positive change, or they get tired of my whining and I get outright banned off the forums for trying to voice my opinion.

[Evelo]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

and I’ll continue to call them out on it until there’s positive change, or they get tired of my whining and I get outright banned off the forums for trying to voice my opinion.

I don't use this term lightly because I don't like modern slang but,

Based

Criticism is not hatred or malice, it is critiquing something you disagree with (preferably in a respectful manner like you do). Irks me to see people waive away others' criticisms because it is negative in nature.

[Bearger Enjoyer]

The venn diagram of most people I've seen complain about the game getting easier and the people who actively refuse to engage with newly-added challenges and tribulations is a circle.

 

I can wholeheartedly say that, even whilst ignoring bosses, 2013 DS was way easier. People romanticize old DS without realizing how easy it was to trivialize it completely.

[abrocator]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Summer Wildfires Burned away a ton of Mushroom rings? No worries they’ll regrow!

Think of what you’re saying. Summer wildfires destroying stuff permanently just makes neurotic players (ey what if I am going to play this world for 60 in-game years and what if I’m gonna start using red mushrooms (even though I never do)) camp in oasis or the caves all dang summer.

[Zeklo]

I see it as two different kinds of 'difficulty'—'learning difficulty' and then your more standard 'difficulty.'

They can play into one another, but they aren't influenced equally.