These Skill Trees Need a Fundamental Rework In Their Design Philosophy

[lakhnish]

Now that we've gotten a total of 4 skill trees and a much more clearer picture of what the skill tree is going to be like, the conclusion I've come to is that I don't fully agree with the current design philosophy of the skill tree.

These skill trees are not going anywhere, so I'm writing this post with that in mind.

What the Skill Tree Currently Is (To Me)

The way the current skill tree works is that as you play as a character for about 150-160 days, you gain XP to fully unlock the full perks of the character.

However, given that this is a one-time task that then persists upon worlds, the XP process is debatable and since I already have thousands of hours in the game already, to me, feels just like an unnecessary checkmark that I will very gladly skip.

Not only that, these skill trees really just feel like character reworks since for the most part, these perks could have easily just be an innate part of the character but instead, the design philosophy was to filter these perks through a skill tree. (And with the Celestial Portal, I technically have access to the entire skill tree, making me further question the XP aspect of the skill tree. Nothing against the portal, I've swapped hundreds if not thousands of times and will continue to do so, but it's still food for thought).

What the Skill Tree Should Have Been

This is what I feel like should have been the focus of these skill trees: the alignments.

The story that is currently being told is that Charlie and Wagstaff are making fundamental changes to the world and our characters have the option to pick a side.

The design right now does not really emphasize this.

• The alignment perks make up an incredibly small portion of the actual skill tree.
• It's only made worse since in order to unlock the alignment skills, you first need to unlock x-amount of normal skills to activate the alignment skills (assuming that CC and FW have already been defeated).
• The majority of these x-aligned perks do not nearly have much impact as the normal skills, exasperated by how few of them there are.

Instead, the skill tree should fully transform into an alignment skill trees.

First, the currently existing normal skills should be just be an innate part of the character (since again, they really are just reworks).

Then, the alignment tree should unlock after the players kills either Fuelweaver or Celestial Champion, where the details of these perks should be stuff that relates to your alignment.

This process should be on a per-world basis. 

This to me makes the skill tree a rewarding and repeatable journey rather than a one-time time sink and lines up nicely with the story without completely removing the skill tree system, which is something I see Klei not removing.

This here is a rough visual example of what the difference could potentially look like compared to the current system.

TLDR:

Excluding the alignment perks, the skill trees are really just reworks, except this time you pick and choose which aspects of it you want enabled when quite honestly, they could have easily instead just been part of the characters already innate perks. 

What they should have instead done was make focus of the skill be on choosing an alignment and then based on your alignment, you get x perks, since that is the current theme of the story for DST and just have the normal skills be innate parts of the character (no skill tree needed for them).

[Nimbus3]

100% agree with that proposition, please no skill tree for specific characters, no more character updates...

[Habakkuk]

Skill trees as an end game reward is a lot better. It would allow people to play the old DST and have new stuff after some learning and at the same time force people to play with all characters. And I agree that the skill treee should be saved in the world, what would make people more loyal to their servers and friends, what makes we play "Together".

[Antynomity]

I'd like this a lot more compared to the current skill trees.

[Frashaw27]

35 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

However, given that this is a one-time task that then persists upon worlds, the XP process is debatable and since I already have thousands of hours in the game already, to me, feels just like an unnecessary checkmark that I will very gladly skip.

That is true, how I ever I think most people are ignoring how this appeals to new players, a sense of progression. On of the main problems that most new players encounter is the lack of progression, not so much in the world but between runs. Because if you're playing the game normally and you really like sticking with Woodie, then you feel like your getting better with the character, not only because you're gaining skills with him but also because you're actively growing with him. It's encouraging to people because the sting of death and reset no longer is that bad since aren't set entirely back to square one again, atleast in my opinion. While us veterans might see it as a unnecessary time cost, I think newer players appreciate this approach of drip feeding and having this system of progression instead of constantly retrying the same character over and over again with no sense of how to get better besides blindly throwing yourself at the problems until you learn, which is a bit discouraging, again in my opinion.

41 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

Instead, the skill tree should fully transform into an alignment skill trees.

This kinda goes hand in hand with my last argument but it is kind of mean to essentially dangle these carrots infront of the players and go "hey kid you want all these fancy and cool perks? Go kill one the final bosses past a long ass questline. Do it, It's what's expected of you." Like the idea is non inherintly bad, but I feel like it goes against the sort of merging between newbie and veteran benefits that I think Klei is going for.

 

46 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

The majority of these x-aligned perks do not nearly have much impact as the normal skills, exasperated by how few of them there are.

I can't really agree with this. While Wilson's alignment perks are a bit underwelming, the other characters perks are fine and even really powerful, a quality over quantity if I say. While something like reducing the damage the Moose takes is very important, being able to completely ignore shadows while in a state that actievely drains your sanity is good is arguably just as if not more important in my opinion. Wolfgang dealing an additional 30% of total damage is insane, with a Dark Sword Mighty Wolfgang is hitting for a baseline 176-177 (depending on how the damage rounding works) a hit. And all the things Wormwood gets also makes him a god with the Brightshade Equipment. I don't really understand how you see these as not having impact, as they have HUGE ramifications based on how you use them, like how all skill trees end up.

58 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

First, the currently existing normal skills should be just be an innate part of the character (since again, they really are just reworks).

I don't really like this approach because people give Walter a lot of s**t for being a "perk soup"  while if this change was implamented, suddenly Wormwood:

-Doesn't bother butterflies

-Somehow makes mushrooms in mushroom planters grow faster

-Can eat lunar caps for an aoe sleep

-Can make Berry Bushes, Saplings, Lureplants, and Monkeytails out of thin air

-Can make a pooping syrup

-Bees just straight up aren't an issue to him unless you attack first

-Just spawns petals when in full bloom

-And now gains summer insulation while in full bloom

That's a lot of random crap to give to him just all at once, and it doesn't get better with the other characters. These aren't really reworks, more like add-ons. The characters themselves are already "good" (not really in terms of power, more like in terms of uniqueness), and these skills just help add on to them instead of redefining how the character plays.

1 hour ago, lakhnish said:

This process should be on a per-world basis. 

I touched on this in previous paragraphs, but I feel that the system is more geared towards newer players who need some help in getting to play the game more instead of beating repeatedly being beaten with a stick until they learn the exact way the stick lands every time it's wound up, that's to say to repeatedly throw themselves at a task until you've finally been given the go ahead to make progress. I feel the per-world basis would spit in the face of it, not only decentivizing people like me who would gladly play different worlds to gain their perks forever to shape towards some form of completion instead getting a world done with one character and then doing tasks with all the other characters to get "the perfect world". I just don't think it really fits with idea Klei is going for, in my opinion, which seems to be forms of completion that give the player something, like how the scrapbook gives knowledge, to work towards without dangling achievements that set goals but don't really give anything in return.

While there are some thing I think could be done differently about the system, like maybe adding different increase requirements for each character like how many Wickerbottom quotes for things are in the scrap book, Wolfgang unique giants, and Maxwell crafting out the Ancient, Magic, and new Void Cloth sides, I think the system, at it's core is good and fine. There's a few things that concern me, like how Wormwood only has lunar alignments instead of choosing which concerns me for character like Maxwell and Wanda, but that doesn't mean I think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater because of it.

[GenomeSquirrel]

progression from new players is figuring out just how useful items on the science machines are, from light to combat to weather, surviving spiders, learning to avoid that yellow spider or a group of 10 spiders.

 

the skill tree is just pointless grinding.

[Golden Daemon]

I feel like this skill tree system needs to have two different kinds of perk choices.

One is the same as the current ones (you can unlock them using the points you have gained and can be accessed since start of server).
the other one is earned via actions done in the server.
Thing such as "defeat celestial champion / fuelweaver"  but its not just automatically unlocked for all servers once you do it.

So that the less game changing and QOL based perks are accessible since start, but those that greatly change the gameplay are unlocked through milestones.
These milestones could be simple things like defeating seasonal bosses or even better , could be things that introduce more challenges to the world (same as opening the portals).
This way , the overall game is not made easier just because characters have been made stronger with their buffs, and the sense of progression for each server is still preserved and the players can make new choice during their play time in new servers based on how their server is progressing by coordinating with other players on the server rather than having to choose their perks at the start of character creation and being stuck with that until they can upgrade the florid postern.

And as a added bonus the new powers are gained when they are most needed (when stronger challenges are added to the game), so that the devs wont have to increase the early game difficulty to accommodate for the stronger survivors and worry about making the entire game easier.

[Wardin25]

54 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

-Bees just straight up aren't an issue to him unless you attack first

-And now gains summer insulation while in full bloom

Actually he already kinda has the bee neutrality when in full bloom, and he gets 60 summer insuation points when fully bloomed too, my guess is the perk increases it to 120

 

I know Ill do it myself 

 

 

 

[lakhnish]

1 hour ago, Frashaw27 said:

snip

With this system, you just have to survive a total of 150-160 days (whatever the number is), but that doesn't mean it's 160 straight. New players could just be sticking to a character and dying every 20 days and with time, just get the skill points unlocked, but it doesn't mean they are necessarily improving in the game and is made moot since the player keeps the skills across worlds.

Imo, WX's crafting tab has a much better skill tree than what they have currently implemented that promotes a sense of progession. You are literally exploring and researching the game on a per world basis and in exchange, you are getting rewarded for it. That to me feels like a better progression system than the XP system they've added, but I made this original post since I felt like a lot of these perks should have just been innately part of the character rather than dividing it into 4-5 parts, and then giving players points to pick and choose what they want.

[Prophedt]

Man, I totally agree with you. At the moment the skill trees feel like a second character re-design with no concept. Committing to the shadow and lunar alignment would be much better imo and would give the trees more sense regarding the concept of the game and the current updates/arch. At the moment they just feel out of place and rushed without having the lore and style of DST in mind.

[Milordo]

Just wanted to say, thanks a lot again @lakhnish for your continue contribution to the game and community and as always I'll try to bump up your post too, so hopefully Klei will listen, instead of not giving answers...

Your idea is great and fix so many issues, that even me who I went attack mode (and explained in my post in large details about the issues of the skill tree) could see playing it, have fun and accept this new system, on those conditions.

 

It's sad tho, that this is not the first time that the more passionate fans can give better solutions than what horrible situations we have....

8 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

With this system, you just have to survive a total of 150-160 days (whatever the number is), but that doesn't mean it's 160 straight. New players could just be sticking to a character and dying every 20 days and with time, just get the skill points unlocked, but it doesn't mean they are necessarily improving in the game and is made moot since the player keeps the skills across worlds.

Imo, WX's crafting tab has a much better skill tree than what they have currently implemented that promotes a sense of progession. You are literally exploring and researching the game on a per world basis and in exchange, you are getting rewarded for it. That to me feels like a better progression system than the XP system they've added, but I made this original post since I felt like a lot of these perks should have just been innately part of the character rather than dividing it into 4-5 parts, and then giving players points to pick and choose what they want.

Finally again, someone else acknowledge the design of the game via WX or others, I said it myself a lot of time since Wilson rework! It was really perfect. There was no need to this schlop of skill tree.

We can put in the table Wigfrid, Walter with his curse rounds, Wanda and Warly too.

[cybers2001]

I disagree on skills should only be rift-aligned. I like the direction Klei went with allowing even more branches for specialization focus, like wormwood being a farmer specialist or more combat utility, though I do agree the individual perks themselves need tweaking. Even Wolfgang has some diversity, with the two points that seem to make him more of a follower-focused character (for whatever reason a person wouldn’t just play Wurt or Webber instead). 
  
I think Klei needs to slow down and better conceptualize a range of roles for each character, and corresponding perks that actually cater to those roles. Like, I would never use wolfgang to control followers, but I *would* use wolfgang for non-combat chores. Let’s get more perks in that tree. How about wolfgang can reel fish in faster? How about gaining mighty by carrying statues? Even faster hammering? Or maybe get more resources back from hammering?

[Frashaw27]

22 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

With this system, you just have to survive a total of 150-160 days (whatever the number is), but that doesn't mean it's 160 straight. New players could just be sticking to a character and dying every 20 days and with time, just get the skill points unlocked, but it doesn't mean they are necessarily improving in the game and is made moot since the player keeps the skills across worlds.

Yes, but I feel that this system is better because it encourages a player to keep on playing the character even after they fail. Like I said before, with the per-world system, all progression becomes moot and thus it doesn't encourage players to branch out to "complete" them all as it will all just be reset anyways. It also doesn't stop at the days lasted since they also have unlock conditions for fw and cc, which keeps on encouraging them to not only beat the boss in that world, but in other worlds too. Yes, a per-world system maybe more aligned with classic DS but I feel that system is a bit outdated and feel that this systems helps encourage diversity through that completion itch.

Although that's just how I feel. Like how I can't change how you feel that a per world basis is better and you can't change for I feel that a permeant gain is better, it's all up to personal opinion at the end of the day. Neither system is perfect and both have flaws, and that's what Klei has to decide upon which one is better.

[Juanasdf]

Yes

I've said this to a friend. These skill trees are just rebalancing disguised as perk trees.

Woodie needed a way to avoid full moons? Give him a perk that avoids that. If you dont pick it, you're handicapping yourself.

Wolfgang needs a planar dmg buff? Give him a perk that adds planar dmg.

Wolfgang is a strong character? Divide perks into tiers so that you have to spend more than a third of your points into it. And add filler perks so that you get the feeling of "choice."

Now, the changes introduced with the perk trees are great in my opinion, and my point isnt that wolf should get more.

My problem is that I don't see why these couldn't have been their own thing like Wurt or Wortox got. Honestly they just made wilson skill tree (which was just nice, not gamechanging to warrant him a nerf) not special. At least the wilson perks teached the player to survive different things.

Die to darkness day 1? Buy torch points

Die to freezing at day 20? Buy beard points

Just either gut the useless perks and give them straight up compensation buffs, or give them all the changes... I'm sure no one will object to woodie being able to master all 3 forms...

[Milordo]

4 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

Yes, but I feel that this system is better because it encourages a player to keep on playing the character even after they fail.

Trust me, trust me on my soul and heart, it's not an opinion, I know how these things works and it will only work for the first hours after the new player touched their first character.

Then it will be all, c_skip(150) (or the last 5% people who don't want to cheat, stick to only 1 character, something that already happened x10000 before in all these 10 years. The skill tree does add nothing.)

[UltraShadow01]

actually i agree with this. when wilson's skill tree came out and people started to think other characters would get skill trees i really wanted it to be false
and i still partially feel like that. seeing as wormwood got a skill tree i really like the new additions which make him feel refreshing but your points really brought to my attention the issue i myself didn't realize.

the skills are great the execution has much to be desired
even more so because they carry across worlds

in the current design it wouldn't make sense to have per world insight points
because a lot of skills are geared towards early game

but also having everything unlock just boils the entire process down to starting a new world lets take the skills that are good for early game
i agree with this post. skill tree's execution need a rethink

[PetulantPansy]

3 hours ago, lakhnish said:

 

Instead, the skill tree should fully transform into an alignment skill trees.

First, the currently existing normal skills should be just be an innate part of the character (since again, they really are just reworks).

Then, the alignment tree should unlock after the players kills either Fuelweaver or Celestial Champion, where the details of these perks should be stuff that relates to your alignment.

This process should be on a per-world basis. 

This to me makes the skill tree a rewarding and repeatable journey rather than a one-time time sink and lines up nicely with the story without completely removing the skill tree system, which is something I see Klei not removing.

These are brilliant ideas and it would be amazing if Klei would implement something more like this. Wilson's tree can be left alone since lots of people are complaining that Wilson is no longer "unique".

 

Content creation is not easy but Klei already has the content. It just needs to be reorganized. Wolfgang's increased "critical" work/hit rates could just be renamed "shadow strength" [under shadow alignment]. Wolfgang's new workout perks can be renamed "smart workouts" or something goofy ("work smarter, not harder") [under lunar alignment]. Woodie's new gear could just be renamed "enlightened gear" [lunar alignment]. Woodie's wereform buffs could be renamed "strengthened shadow transformations" [shadow alignment]. Wormwood is even easier since wormwood only has 1 alignment. All I'm getting at is that the "normal" skills should just be locked under one of the lunar/shadow alignments. This will make the lunar vs shadow storyline make far more sense. These extra perks aren't exactly needed by any survivor so locking them away for a later day is perfectly fine. 

[ShadowDuelist]

I like this idea, as a few side notes I'd add a few things I think should balance this system even further:
 

1. The insight points should be granted faster, so you should be at max level of time based insight by day 36 (first day of spring in normal settings, which represents that you survived winter which is usually the crown of survival when you are learning the game)
2. Dying should reset your current insight point time gain (so dying over and over is punishing towards keep advancing in perks) and staying as a ghost should not count towards time lived.
3. You should probably start with 3 points already, so you do get some perks when you start.
4. Resetting your insight path could be an option in game, I mean we all screw up, but it should have a cooldown each time you reset your points. Let's say once every 20 days or something. And possibly made at celestial portal once you've completed it.
5. Once you got all the insight you won't lose them across that game unless you change chars (Celestial Portal penalty).
   Maybe it will not reset to 0, but something like half of insight points are lost each time you swap. I mean this system would be a reward for thriving in your character, character swapping whenever you need -whatever special character craft- goes against that idea on the very basics. If you want to get to max level with that character as well you need to survive a few days. Or not, but when you return to your "normal" character it won't be at max level anymore for some days.
   Spoiler

   For those who love character swapping and want me to be run over by a truck by having mentioned this, there could be a setting in the world menu so you don't lose the points when swapping. But by default I'd add the penalty. 

6. Killing FW or Celestial should instantly grant 1 extra insight point each as a one time thing, and these extra 2 points you can't get through time passage. It would mean that a regular character will have 15 points by existing, and 17 max if they killed both bosses. These extra points should never go away in that world, even if you swap characters. They would be your crown points for that world. 

[Milordo]

7 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I like this idea, as a few side notes I'd add a few things I think should balance this system even further:
 

1. The insight points should be granted faster, so you should be at max level of time based insight by day 36 (first day of spring in normal settings, which represents that you survived winter which is usually the crown of survival when you are learning the game)
2. Dying should reset your current insight point time gain (so dying over and over is punishing towards keep advancing in perks) and staying as a ghost should not count towards time lived.
3. You should probably start with 3 points already, so you do get some perks when you start.
4. Resetting your insight path could be an option in game, I mean we all screw up, but it should have a cooldown each time you reset your points. Let's say once every 20 days or something. And possibly made at celestial portal once you've completed it.
5. Once you got all the insight you won't lose them across that game unless you change chars (Celestial Portal penalty).
   Maybe it will not reset to 0, but something like half of insight points are lost each time you swap. I mean this system would be a reward for thriving in your character, character swapping whenever you need -whatever special character craft- goes against that idea on the very basics. If you want to get to max level with that character as well you need to survive a few days. Or not, but when you return to your "normal" character he won't be at max level anymore for some days.
     Hide contents

   For those who are reading about this and want me to be run over by a truck, there could be a setting so you don't lose the points when swapping. But by default I'd add the penalty. 

6. Killing FW or Celestial should instantly grant 1 extra insight point each as a one time thing, and these extra 2 points you can't get through time passage. It would mean that a regular character will have 15 points by existing, and 17 max if they killed both bosses. These extra points should never go away in that world, even if you swap characters. They would be your crown points for that world. 

Very cool, one question, why only day 36? If the points are used only after killing ancient fuelweaver with this hypotetically new skill tree, why not make it a full year? I remember on 2014, maybe, winter was considered the crown of survival, but a loooot of time has passed and now it's more "I survived 1 year on Don't Starve" for a lot people, new players too and myself included.

[cybers2001]

If you want insight penalties to character swapping, then you need to add perks that are much stronger than what exist today, because what we have now is not enough reason to avoid swapping characters.

[Milordo]

26 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

If you want insight penalties to character swapping, then you need to add perks that are much stronger than what exist today, because what we have now is not enough reason to avoid swapping characters.

Instead of stronger maybe more interesting, fun, peculiar and special ones?

[ALCRD]

3 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

-Bees just straight up aren't an issue to him unless you attack first

Well yes and no i hope this skill stays so my bees can work on making honey instead every single one of them staying glued to me for the rest of the day cause i walked by general direction where i placed my hives plus i can place my hives closer to base now without any downsides instead having them placed miles away from my base.

Cause i assume this skill makes it so bees ignore your bloomed stage right?

[sudoku]

I do think the skill trees kind of butt heads with the original simplicity of the game but i think newer players really struggle to find a reason to play. It used to be that simple exploration and discovery were enough to drive players forward and fall in love with the game. But the landscape has changed, in an era where battlepasses are inserted into every online game, newer players have been conditioned to strive towards a measurable goal.

Skill trees provide some sort of direction and goal for players to strive for, and even though its only 150-160 non consecutive days - i dont think that number is arbitrary. Klei most likely have the data that shows that most newer players probably drop the game before that goal post for lack of distinct in game direction. And this incentivizes trying out other characters to build up those skill trees as well. 

I think its a fine system. I dont really care too much either way, and its probably the least invasive method of adding direction and goals for literal newbies that they could have went with. 

[HowlVoid]

I think this is meant to allow characters to grow alongside the player. Hinting at how the character can be specialized and allowing that choice to the player as they grow accustomed to said character.

Your comment is very biased to the perspective of an experienced player because you are already aware of in what specialization/role you want each character to be and would not benefit from the journey. 

Personally to me, then having to relive this journey every single playthrough does not sound enjoyable. 

With the current system habits and current playstyles are rewarded to veterans and new players alike. 

I think something that is grossly overlooked is how new players can learn a lot from said journey as they come to understand what each character has to offer.

[Szczuku]

I'll copy my opinion about the skill trees' perks from the other thread:

The problem is that these perks aren't naturally integrated with the gameplay or unlocked in some clever way, they're literally toggles that a player might choose to enable. It's boring and uninspired.

Plus the whole insight points thing is a 'one and done' deal; you get all 15 points and you get free bonuses for the rest of the game, not just that world. Because that's what they are, straight up extra perks, with no depth, shallow as a puddle.

If they were unlocked via... idunno some actual player effort and engagement and needed to be unlocked every playthrough, then sure, some of them would be pretty cool, I guess. Something like: butterflies no longer flee from Wormwood after he plants 10 flowers. After 40 days Woodie's wereforms become stronger, after another 40 he masters them. Overtime Wolfgang masters planar weapons and can use them more effectively. Scratch all this skill tree nonsense, add these perks the way I've described, remove the useless ones such as Wormwood's farmhand and bee perks and create some sort of... skillboard or something where you can see which skill's you've 'discovered' thus far, plus maybe some small hints on how to unlock some perks such as 'Wormwood would like to help flowers grow' or 'Woolfgang needs to practise using certain weapons'

Plus they shouldn't just delete any sort of effort or 'obstacles' that the player would be affected by.