What is the point of endgame drops for wolfgang mains?

[bigboss2169]

As you could have guessed I am a wolfgang main myself. The one and only reason I play wolfgang is for its double damage.

A mighty wolfgang with the new scythe and the armor set deals 130 damage at full stack.
while he can deal 136 with a dark sword that he can get early in game.

Now I will get to my point. Every character has their own perks and super good utils( there are few exepctions) and perk of wolfgang should be double damage. 
The thing I do not get is  why klei is trying so hard to get this perk out of wolfgang for late game? Why should i try to grind so hard for the lategame while the best thing I can get is a weapon that deals less damage compared to the one I already have? Is this an online competitive game that needs to be balanced? I just want to chill in my solo world enjoying my characters perk. 

The only character that gets nerfed alongside wolfgang is wigfrid. But she has her own unique weapon, armor and books that apply her various buffs. Not even mentioning her life and sanity regen per attack.
 
It is just not fair that we cant use wolfgangs one and only noteworthy perk in late game .They did the same thing with celestial crown too, although I can kinda understand that one.
But this started too get out of hand. The planar and the new scythes damage stacking mechanism feels like just made to nerf wolfgangs double damage perk. 

Its just annoying.....

[Baark0]

the whole point of planar items is to nerf wolfgang and volt goat jelly without actually nerfing either. i wont get into if its good or not since thats a whole other topic, but i dont think its very fair to wolfgang, the whole point of the character is that you do incredible amounts of damage, if wolfgang doesnt have that then there is no reason to play the character

[MadMatt]

Yeah man, it's so unfair that the new items can't be used with Wolfgang's perks fullest potential. It's so weird that this affects only Wolfgang and no one else.

[Guille6785]

well you see, wolfgang = literally meta knight from smash bros brawl (that means he's opee)

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, bigboss2169 said:

Is this an online competitive game that needs to be balanced?

My only nitpick here is that competitive games are far from the only games that need balanced it's a important aspect for any game.

[Popian]

It's less about Wolfgang getting nerfed and more about the new mobs getting buffed so they can survive more than 3 hits and retaliate.

You think you are losing something, but planar defense mobs were never released without planar defense. And maybe you are losing a bit as an original 4 minute spicy jelly boss battle might take 4 minutes 30 seconds with planar mechanics, but it's no longer 30+ minutes and extra resources for the 1x damage character to do the same.

[Mike23Ua]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

My only nitpick here is that competitive games are far from the only games that need balanced it's a important aspect for any game.

Games like Borderlands & Dead Island have gotten balancing tweaks & those games are STRICTLY PVE co-op ventures.

Balance is important in everything, and when it comes to Wolfgang in Particular, I feel like there should’ve been at least a FEW mobs he struggled with.

This Would’ve given other Non-Wolfgang Characters their moment in the spotlight to shine.

For Example- Wolfgang is canonically known as being a huge scaredy cat, so of course if there’s a new mob in the game that looks like the big red nose of IT the clown with spider legs.. he should be rightfully terrified of it.

Klei is aiming to solve Wolfgang’s dealing double damage by introducing mobs that aren’t effected by it.

While this is upsetting the Wolfgang mains..

It’s the exact same situation as Mordecai from Borderlands 1 or Gaige from Borderlands 2, where they had too much power.. and other characters were just walking behind them after their A.I. Companions slaughter every enemy in sight. These needed to rightfully be Nerfed.

In a NON PVP Game By the way..

[bigboss2169]

why do people always mention wolfgang with voltgoat jelly? Its a perk of warly not wolfgang and I have  never used in my playtroughs even once(i have 743 hours of gameplay). So you cannot just say that wolfgang is op because he can do a lot of damage with voltgoat jelly. That damage would be combination of 2 characters not only wolfgang. And yes i am losing something.I am missing on the new endgame items because they suck for wolfgang except with the mobs with planar defense.  Because its not only planar mobs that dont take double damage, the damage wont double at all including mobs without defence. What is the point for me to go for one of the hardest items to get in the game if it wont help me kill toadstool or any boss easier, since i can use the good old darksword with higher damage compared to so called engame item.

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

For Example- Wolfgang is canonically known as being a huge scaredy cat, so of course if there’s a new mob in the game that looks like the big red nose of IT the clown with spider legs.. he should be rightfully terrified of it.

he loses sanity a lot more faster than any other character in game soo... yeah?

 

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Balance is important in everything, and when it comes to Wolfgang in Particular, I feel like there should’ve been at least a FEW mobs he struggled with.

This Would’ve given other Non-Wolfgang Characters their moment in the spotlight to shine.

I mean doesnt Wanda shine enough then? She can teleport between caves and surface, res teammetes without penalties, has the best kiting item in the game, insane damage, a weapon that hits hard, repairable and ranged.
Yea seems fair. lets nerf wolfgangs double damage to the point that the Hardest weapon to get in the game will hit less than a dark sword for him. makes sense alright!

I dont care about any character being op. But nerfing an item specifically for only one character? thats just not fair man... I am not saying that wolfgang isnt good or anything. Just saying this type of balancing just feels unfair and cheap.


Again, not talking about damage against planar defense mobs. Talking about  endgame weapons dealing less damage than a dark sword  with wolfgang against normal bosses and mobs. How does this makes sense?? if it does please explain to me why should i grind for the endgame weapon? to get the items easier that are required to craft the endgame weapon itself??

[Shosuko]

58 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

It’s the exact same situation as Mordecai from Borderlands 1 or Gaige from Borderlands 2, where they had too much power.. and other characters were just walking behind them after their A.I. Companions slaughter every enemy in sight. These needed to rightfully be Nerfed.

In a NON PVP Game By the way..

The thing is - Wolfgang only does 2x damage.  Any group of 3-4 people literally do more damage then 1 Wolfgang.  Even if a Wolfgang spicy jellies, the downtime of kiting, the multitasking of end game bosses, controlling mob aggro etc he STILL won't output the damage of 4 decent players.  If Wolfgang needs nerfs, then multiplayer needs nerfs.

tbh when they took away his move speed, if they thought his damage was a problem they should have grown a pair and nerfed his damage then along with Wanda and spicy jelly.  If they really think his damage is breaking the game then they should just DO IT.  This planar damage mechanic is not only a hit almost directly targeted to Wolfgang and other damage stacking characters, but its also an overly convoluted pile of mathematical mess and tbh - in the face of Wanda, and Wicker + Max reworks who emerged literally GODLIKE I see no reason Wolfgang needs any hits, not even losing his speed.  If they just gave him the ms boost back he'd still be B tier with Wanda, Wick, and Max running things...

Sometimes I think "we just need to trust klei" but then I remember I don't believe in god either so...  klei pls

[Popian]

Even if the Scythe did more damage it still takes up 3 slots for ramping so the Dark Sword is more convenient. Maybe the perk is that you don't have to get the item to max out your damage potential on non-planar mobs?

[Duck986]

Planar items also nerf Wanda - she deals 68.8 damage to planar mobs when old with her Alarming clock, that means she has about 37.5 hp, and so 1-2 planar hits is enough to kill her in any non-planar armor.

Note - not a single player who actually played Wanda said that she was OP. And yet her shadow weapon doesn't deal more damage to both shadows and lunars.

[Mr Giggio]

Welp the game doesnt spin around this character. IT shouldnt be like that in the first place and the fact it did for a long time creates this type of "whataboutwolfgang" behavior but yes, this era ended. 

Hes fine with the new sets, hes fine without. And thats fine. Its all fine.

 

[Vinja]

Because smoothbrains here love to whine about how OP Wolfgang is when he’s genuinely just not. People see big numbers and weep when there are other characters that are generally capable of even crazier numbers but smallbrains can’t comprehend strength beyond damage numbers. Obviously different characters will be stronger or weaker depending on the scenario but generally speaking there are arguments to be made that Wurt, Warly, Webber, Wanda, Winona, Wendy, and Maxwell are all just as strong if not stronger than wolfgang for combat. Especially if you add a beefalo to the equation in the case of Wendy/Maxwell.

Klei unfortunately seems to buy into this misconception as well and are trying to literally make entire mechanics meant to proxy nerf wolfgang instead of growing a pair and just nerfing the character if they really think he’s that big of a problem. 
 

In my opinion it’s an incredibly idiotic and narrow minded way of development. But yeah, anyway, if you’re a wolf main they pretty much have said through these new mechanics that you shouldn’t get to benefit from the new endgame content because some chubby cheeked thirteen year old saw wolf smack for 136 and sobbed.

[ShadowDuelist]

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

tbh when they took away his move speed, if they thought his damage was a problem they should have grown a pair and nerfed his damage then along with Wanda and spicy jelly.  If they really think his damage is breaking the game then they should just DO IT. 

I don’t think that can be done.

If the planar system is already creating so much controversy imagine if they outright reduced his damage.

Also, what would be a good number for him if they removed the planar system? 1.5? 1.4? It’s an even greater mess to balance, and it solves nothing: he’d still be the obvious choice for the harder endgame.

This way he still has all his 2.0 power throughout all the “normal” bosses, and when you reach the endgame “hardcore” mobs and bosses, he will be somewhat more mediocre. It may be a bit unfair for Wolfgang mains, but I think it’s fair for making viable to pick any of the other characters.

Like mike said, even pve games need some balance.
If you make a character or an item WAY better than the others, and then you want to add new harder content, there would be almost no other choice but to have to pick that character/use that item. As weird as this system is, it’s trying to bring balance.
 

Also to be fair the planar damage system not only affects the meta on raw damage for Wigfrid, Wolfgang and Wanda, it  also affects most combat advantages of every character, including characters specific minions (merms and spiders), summons, Bernie!, catapults, combat beefalos, and it further buries perks that were already in a bad place like the slingshot or the weremoose. Just to mention a few. 

[Nicolas Liu]

The new contents are not fully released yet. Guess there are more features added in the future to make planar weapons more essential. Just that we gotta wait. Right now if the drops are not good just don't fight them then.

[_zwb]

The point is if you don't use the new items then you will undoubtedly struggle(against new enemies).

Devs be like: "noooo you can't just ignore the new items we just programmed into the game, that's it, we're adding a mechanic specifically made for it so you have to use them"

Seriously Klei, what the hell, why am I punished for dealing more damage per hit? Is that not a good thing anymore?

[Shosuko]

2 hours ago, bigboss2169 said:

HOW A SWORD YOU CAN GET AT DAY 10 CAN BE BETTER THAN A SWORD THAT YOU GET AT DAY 200 FOR A SINGLE CHARACTER EXPLAIN THIS TO ME. I AM NOT SAYING THAT WOLFGANG IS BAD. I AM SAYING WHY GO SUCH LENGTHS JUST TO MAKE A SINGLE CHARACTER WORSE IN THE LATE GAME? 

 

You can get the BS gear a lot quicker if you just turn it on in settings.

Also

Klei mentioned in their podcast after the last update that these gears are going to get some type of upgrades that will make them much stronger then they are now, so I suspect after that is unlocked these will begin eclipsing all previous gear in any combat.

[Spino43]

4 hours ago, Nicolas Liu said:

The new contents are not fully released yet. Guess there are more features added in the future to make planar weapons more essential. Just that we gotta wait. Right now if the drops are not good just don't fight them then.

I used to believe this way of thinking.

But after the whole ocean/ RoT incidents I ditch that thinking.

It's hard to just blindly believe it's going to be better.

[bigboss2169]

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

You can get the BS gear a lot quicker if you just turn it on in settings.

This is like saying this to a person who is looking for survival tips in game:  "you can make berries lots and turn off all the bosses in server settings"

sooo, no thank you.

that may be the solution for you but I dont like changing the original difficulty of the game neither by mods nor by server settings.
 

[ALCRD]

14 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Games like Borderlands & Dead Island have gotten balancing tweaks & those games are STRICTLY PVE co-op ventures.

Ye about Borderlands "balancing tweaks"

Borderlands 2 has Salvador.

Game breakingly overpowered God of Hyperdeath that literally can one shot almost any raid boss and turn any trash mobs into minced meat.

Wolfgang wishes he was that strong ^^

But yep i agree this is what happens when you don't properly balance PVE games. You get Salvador.

[HeatAndRun]

Wolfgang still deals strongest damage to planar defence creatures by using new planar damage weapon. 

[Mike23Ua]

3 hours ago, bigboss2169 said:

This is like saying this to a person who is looking for survival tips in game:  "you can make berries lots and turn off all the bosses in server settings"

sooo, no thank you.

that may be the solution for you but I dont like changing the original difficulty of the game neither by mods nor by server settings.
 

I mean.. to be fair, that’s the whole point of Klei coding the game with world Gen presets, when they did the Terraria cross-over the developers of Terraria specifically went into these settings and changed them up so that it felt a little more “Terraria-like” and while it’s not a MASSIVE change- it did allow them to tweak things like how often it rains, how many spiders spawn, how often worms attack etc..

You ignore these features when Klei very specifically adds them to NOT be Ignored. In my opinion it’s kinda insulting to them even going through the effort of adding it if people aren’t going to use it.. 

I am not at all ashamed to admit that I will exit my worlds, and change settings to “Relaxed Mode” when I’m playing with my friends who just want to play MY Favorite game with Me.. but may not be as thrilled with “Uncompromising Survival” as I Am, I will totally Exit my worlds where I have things Cranked to 11 and Dial it down to 4 to enjoy a few hours with my friends.

Klei did not add these options for people to insult, and/or dismiss their existence.

That said: It’s also not “Hard” to activate Lunar Rifts the “Intended” Way… it’s just- Time Consuming.. & intentionally designed to be done with a group of players.

And your only fooling yourself if you believe Klei intended for Solo Players to do it Alone.

I fully expect at some point Klei will add some DSA world settings which will likely drastically lower a lot of bosses and higher health mobs damage & Health for Solo Play.

And of course people are going to complain “It’s too easy, your ruining my Uncompromising survival game” blah blah blah… But will compare DST to DSA- 

And if Klei wants to provide a DSA world Gen option- I will gladly use it.

TL:DR?? Klei could add a New Game+ Server Setting that has Rifts already toggled to On & that would be a legitimate way of playing the game, just as much as “A taste of terraria” or “lights out” modes.

[Shosuko]

7 hours ago, bigboss2169 said:

This is like saying this to a person who is looking for survival tips in game:  "you can make berries lots and turn off all the bosses in server settings"

sooo, no thank you.

that may be the solution for you but I dont like changing the original difficulty of the game neither by mods nor by server settings.
 

I am with you 100%, I don't like changing worldgen and don't like it as an excuse for content - but this isn't about you, its about everyone else.  If these were very OP and easy to get early through worldgen settings then people could turn them on to get the gear and bypass the game.  With the worldgen option there I think its right that they remain as sidegrades rather than being clearly superior.  Its in the design (as I understand it) that these upgrade as new portal content comes out which should give them significantly increased damage meeting your desires anyway so the part you want just isn't there yet, but its coming soon™

[firoborn]

10 hours ago, Satan_ said:

I think all characters should be balanced around equal damage. It's healthy for the game. It's about time we got a little equity in this game and damage inequality is a huge problem. 
I praise the Klei Developers for doing what they do and I will support them till the end!

Doesn't it make you happy to see the gap between Wolfgang and the other characters get a little bit geared down? It's fantastic!
Spirit of the game, I say.
 

You haven't actually lost Wolfgang's previous damage boosts. You can still use them! It's great! 137 damage dark sword! Hooray! Glass half full!

It just means that now other characters get to enjoy a little bit of the privilege that Wolfgang enjoys, and that's a good thing!

are you not reading? there is no equity wolfgang only has his damage if you take that away then the character has nothing, every other character has something that can help outside of combat except for wolgang is not fair to take his main perk away and give it nothing at this point wilson has more things going on for him than wolfgang and wolf already got his Speed boost taken away from him its just not fair

[Theukon-dos]

22 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I don’t think that can be done.

If the planar system is already creating so much controversy imagine if they outright reduced his damage.

Also, what would be a good number for him if they removed the planar system? 1.5? 1.4? It’s an even greater mess to balance, and it solves nothing: he’d still be the obvious choice for the harder endgame.

This way he still has all his 2.0 power throughout all the “normal” bosses, and when you reach the endgame “hardcore” mobs and bosses, he will be somewhat more mediocre. It may be a bit unfair for Wolfgang mains, but I think it’s fair for making viable to pick any of the other characters.

Like mike said, even pve games need some balance.
If you make a character or an item WAY better than the others, and then you want to add new harder content, there would be almost no other choice but to have to pick that character/use that item. As weird as this system is, it’s trying to bring balance.
 

Also to be fair the planar damage system not only affects the meta on raw damage for Wigfrid, Wolfgang and Wanda, it  also affects most combat advantages of every character, including characters specific minions (merms and spiders), summons, Bernie!, catapults, combat beefalos, and it further buries perks that were already in a bad place like the slingshot or the weremoose. Just to mention a few. 

Can't speak for everyone, but I'd add a soft damage cap where his innate multipliers stop applying. Say the cap where 200 damage per hit. Wolfgang can't reach that bypass that by now without buffs, but if he does have buffs, then he's still benefiting from them, just not as much. Say that we get a sword that deals 150 damage. Wolfgang now would bring that upto 300 damage, but with my system, that would drop down too 250 damage (I think, math was never my strong suit.)

Could also make it so that Wolfgang's damage only applies to melee weapons, so no more chaud-froid blow darts. 

19 hours ago, Nicolas Liu said:

The new contents are not fully released yet. Guess there are more features added in the future to make planar weapons more essential. Just that we gotta wait. Right now if the drops are not good just don't fight them then.

Y'know, lately the idea of "We don't have the full picture" has reminded me a lot of that picture of the baby elephant hiding behind the pole

Spoiler

Sure, we may not see the whole thing. But we do see a good portion of it. We can see where it is and where it's going, we see it's color and general outline. So overall, we can be pretty damn confident in what Planar Damage is and what it's trying to achieve. So I don't think "Just wait for it to be finished" really works all that much.