What is the point of endgame drops for wolfgang mains?

[bigboss2169]

12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I mean.. to be fair, that’s the whole point of Klei coding the game with world Gen presets, when they did the Terraria cross-over the developers of Terraria specifically went into these settings and changed them up so that it felt a little more “Terraria-like” and while it’s not a MASSIVE change- it did allow them to tweak things like how often it rains, how many spiders spawn, how often worms attack etc..

You ignore these features when Klei very specifically adds them to NOT be Ignored. In my opinion it’s kinda insulting to them even going through the effort of adding it if people aren’t going to use it.. 

I am not at all ashamed to admit that I will exit my worlds, and change settings to “Relaxed Mode” when I’m playing with my friends who just want to play MY Favorite game with Me.. but may not be as thrilled with “Uncompromising Survival” as I Am, I will totally Exit my worlds where I have things Cranked to 11 and Dial it down to 4 to enjoy a few hours with my friends.

Klei did not add these options for people to insult, and/or dismiss their existence.

That said: It’s also not “Hard” to activate Lunar Rifts the “Intended” Way… it’s just- Time Consuming.. & intentionally designed to be done with a group of players.

And your only fooling yourself if you believe Klei intended for Solo Players to do it Alone.

I fully expect at some point Klei will add some DSA world settings which will likely drastically lower a lot of bosses and higher health mobs damage & Health for Solo Play.

And of course people are going to complain “It’s too easy, your ruining my Uncompromising survival game” blah blah blah… But will compare DST to DSA- 

And if Klei wants to provide a DSA world Gen option- I will gladly use it.

TL:DR?? Klei could add a New Game+ Server Setting that has Rifts already toggled to On & that would be a legitimate way of playing the game, just as much as “A taste of terraria” or “lights out” modes.

can you tell me the point where I insulted people for changing game via server settings??
I told that I personally don't like doing something like that.
Read carefully before writing 2 paragraphs about something that you didn't even understand properly.

You can go turn off bosses, turn on less damage, turn on rifts via world settings. Enjoy your game i don"t care. Personally i dont like doing that. I believe that default settings are the intended way of playing the game.

[firoborn]

On 6/2/2023 at 3:59 PM, Popian said:

It's less about Wolfgang getting nerfed and more about the new mobs getting buffed so they can survive more than 3 hits and retaliate.

You think you are losing something, but planar defense mobs were never released without planar defense. And maybe you are losing a bit as an original 4 minute spicy jelly boss battle might take 4 minutes 30 seconds with planar mechanics, but it's no longer 30+ minutes and extra resources for the 1x damage character to do the same.

where did you get this? planar defense doesn't escalate when multiple sources are doing damage it just receives less damage from non planar weapons, so new raid bosses with 30k health will still be the same as now, multiple players will be able to down them in a minute and solo players will take 6 or 8 times that, It is absolutely about nerfing wolf/electric damage

[Popian]

46 minutes ago, firoborn said:

where did you get this? planar defense doesn't escalate when multiple sources are doing damage it just receives less damage from non planar weapons, so new raid bosses with 30k health will still be the same as now, multiple players will be able to down them in a minute and solo players will take 6 or 8 times that, It is absolutely about nerfing wolf/electric damage

For a system that scales back player damage it would follow that mob health would also be reduced to account for such a change. The new thrall mobs only have 1000 hp with battles that are short but potentially deadly. Converting that to the old way of doing things they'd probably have at least 4000 hp.

For a battle you want to subject players to enough cycles with the risk of failing where overcoming that they emerge victorious. I think the devs know that Misery Toadstool isn't very popular for being designed around having a minimum amount of players so they are trying to avoid that mistake again, though they have also taken steps to remedy that by introducing things like the Moon Glass Axe, Honey Crystals, and even Wolfgang's increased effectiveness in chopping.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Popian said:

For a system that scales back player damage it would follow that mob health would also be reduced to account for such a change. The new thrall mobs only have 1000 hp with battles that are short but potentially deadly. Converting that to the old way of doing things they'd probably have at least 4000 hp.

For a battle you want to subject players to enough cycles with the risk of failing where overcoming that they emerge victorious. I think the devs know that Misery Toadstool isn't very popular for being designed around having a minimum amount of players so they are trying to avoid that mistake again, though they have also taken steps to remedy that by introducing things like the Moon Glass Axe, Honey Crystals, and even Wolfgang's increased effectiveness in chopping.

The thing is - CK and Toad/MisterToad aren't packed with that much health to give Wolfgang a hard time, they have that much health because they are designed around multiple people fighting them.  They are absolutely unfair for any character to solo.  Without some hijinx like spamming weather pains Wolfgang won't be able to cancel or out damage CK's heal, it just won't happen - especially since the attack speed nerf.  4 players, even if they were all Wes could easily cancel CK's heal, take care of claws etc.

4 characters are much stronger then 1 Wolfgang.

Which is what I think is senseless about nerfing Wolfgang with planar damage.  4 character are going to tear through this content much quicker and easier then any 1 character, even if that 1 character was Wolfgang with his full damage multiplier in effect.

[_zwb]

29 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The thing is - CK and Toad/MisterToad aren't packed with that much health to give Wolfgang a hard time, they have that much health because they are designed around multiple people fighting them.  They are absolutely unfair for any character to solo.  Without some hijinx like spamming weather pains Wolfgang won't be able to cancel or out damage CK's heal, it just won't happen - especially since the attack speed nerf.  4 players, even if they were all Wes could easily cancel CK's heal, take care of claws etc.

4 characters are much stronger then 1 Wolfgang.

Which is what I think is senseless about nerfing Wolfgang with planar damage.  4 character are going to tear through this content much quicker and easier then any 1 character, even if that 1 character was Wolfgang with his full damage multiplier in effect.

Number of players is definitely the key factor in boss fight experience.

Take Bee Queen for an example, if you play alone, you would need a magiluminescence, roads, walking cane, and pan flutes just to get a slight chance to attack her or else you get stun-locked by 8 bees.

If 4 players fight her, the fight becomes so easy that it's almost boring. You can literally stun-lock her with 4 players and insta-kill all the grumble bees with Abigail/bramble husks. We fought her yesterday, Bee Queen died in a few minutes and all I had to do was press F. This is a quite problematic design...

[Yuuko]

20 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Number of players is definitely the key factor in boss fight experience.

Take Bee Queen for an example, if you play alone, you would need a magiluminescence, roads, walking cane, and pan flutes just to get a slight chance to attack her or else you get stun-locked by 8 bees.

If 4 players fight her, the fight becomes so easy that it's almost boring. You can literally stun-lock her with 4 players and insta-kill all the grumble bees with Abigail/bramble husks. We fought her yesterday, Bee Queen died in a few minutes and all I had to do was press F. This is a quite problematic design...

My experience with bee queen is 3 players don't need more then 1 bee hat and no healing at all if they are full health.  What really blew me away was CK, Toad, and AFW though.  Toad was a pretty chill experience with gold axes and 4 people, misery was pretty doable it didn't even feel long compared to a solo toad.  I think AFW died after 1 time summoning the hands and shadows with 4 people.  CK didn't need any special attention to cancelling his heal, just have 1 person who was on arms if they spawned and 1 person on the ice staff, the other literally just held F the entire fight lol.

Another thing that I think is really important to consider about nerfing Wolfgang - people talk about how Wolfgang steals the experience from others, like the example Mike gave from Boarderlands where a single player is 1-shotting all mobs so other players never get to take a shot...  Playing WITH Wolfgang does not feel like that.  I get that if Wolfgang runs off and solos those things you can feel left out, but that is more on player cooperation checking if people want to join a fight before you do it, or just a greedy player who wants that experience for themselves.  If you are actually in the boss fight with Wolfgang it might feel a bit shorter because he deals more damage, but his damage is not so great that the fight doesn't still happen.  Like skill being equal Wolfgang is only 40% of the damage in a 4 player group, and his skills don't really help in non-combat tasks except cutting down trees for toad.  He kills wovens and unseens as easily as anyone else, his ice staff is the same, etc.  AND if you're in a group everyone can get Warly's damage stacking...

Since the attack speed nerf Wolfgang isn't even guaranteed a second scale solo dark sword vs dfly.

Like really, I was totally against Wolfgang and a real hater years ago when I was learning DST but after playing as and with Wolfgang alone and in groups, and hearing from other players and seeing what they do with him and other characters, he really was not the monster he was made out to be.  Literally if he had his speed boost back now he'd still be B tier b/c his only perks are slightly faster harvesting with increased tool consumption, which is pretty weak compared to Maxwell and other methods, and his "massive damage" is actually matched and even exceeded by several other characters at this point.  He has to carry his weights to maintain might too, so he couldn't even stack it with a can easily.

imo the nerfs he got in his rework, and what planar damage does to him is completely unjustified.  He's like the boogieman you see in the corner of your room at night.  Turn on the lights and its all just tricks of light and shadow.

[GelatinousCube]

On 6/4/2023 at 1:30 AM, Satan_ said:

I think all characters should be balanced around equal damage. It's healthy for the game. It's about time we got a little equity in this game and damage inequality is a huge problem. 

????

So remove all character perks then. Everyone is identical and not special.

Nonsense. Bad troll.

15 hours ago, firoborn said:

are you not reading? there is no equity wolfgang only has his damage if you take that away then the character has nothing, every other character has something that can help outside of combat except for wolgang is not fair to take his main perk away and give it nothing at this point wilson has more things going on for him than wolfgang and wolf already got his Speed boost taken away from him its just not fair

He's a troll, just ignore him

[Popian]

14 hours ago, Shosuko said:

The thing is - CK and Toad/MisterToad aren't packed with that much health to give Wolfgang a hard time, they have that much health because they are designed around multiple people fighting them.  They are absolutely unfair for any character to solo.  Without some hijinx like spamming weather pains Wolfgang won't be able to cancel or out damage CK's heal, it just won't happen - especially since the attack speed nerf.  4 players, even if they were all Wes could easily cancel CK's heal, take care of claws etc.

4 characters are much stronger then 1 Wolfgang.

Which is what I think is senseless about nerfing Wolfgang with planar damage.  4 character are going to tear through this content much quicker and easier then any 1 character, even if that 1 character was Wolfgang with his full damage multiplier in effect.

This point about having 4 players vs. 1 isn't very relevant. It's a given that being able to do 4 actions in the same time you would be able to do 1 is a major advantage, as it would be with 16 vs. 4. Are you saying you want things scaled up to require 4 players so that they will be absolutely unfair to solo or that 1 player's strength should match 4 players?

[Yuuko]

16 minutes ago, Popian said:

This point about having 4 players vs. 1 isn't very relevant. It's a given that being able to do 4 actions in the same time you would be able to do 1 is a major advantage, as it would be with 16 vs. 4. Are you saying you want things scaled up to require 4 players so that they will be absolutely unfair to solo or that 1 player's strength should match 4 players?

I'm saying that if people think the content is balanced around Wolfgang, they are wrong.  The content is balanced around 4 players.  With 4 players the big bosses like Bee Queen, Crab King, Toadstool, Ancient Fuel Weaver, Celestial Champion etc are all actually like super easy things to do.  Solo, even as Wolfgang, you need to go through a lot of elaborate prep and become extremely practiced to complete these fights.  Whether I'm Wolfgang or Wes I can do them solo just the same, Wes just takes longer.  Its not really easier or harder because I'd still have to do all of the farming for weather panes, pan flutes, armor and weapons, juggling 4-5 inventory slots while fighting, etc.  None of this is actually made easier with Wolfgang, its just made shorter AND since that is basically Wolfgang's only real perk, I'm okay with that.

The new content - with the planar damage that is designed to specifically nerf high damage characters so hard is going to do nothing to improve the lives of other characters AND when the big bosses inevitably drop 4 players are going to still make quick and easy work of it while solo characters are going to have to jump through some hoops and whether that solo character is Wolfgang, Wendy, Winona or Wes won't really change that fact.

You know who really makes parts of the game feel trivial, and takes away from the experience of other players?  Wicker / Max.

Have you tried enjoying gardening with a Wicker/Max on the server?  You go and collect these seeds, hoe your garden, plant your crops just right - get the water out and carefully time your visits to base to care for them to get BIG BIG crops because you know your stuff!  Or ya know, a wicker/max just reads a book and its all done.  Doesn't matter the fertilizer, water, caring none of it.  Pick, plant and repeat.

"Oh I just got all of these large glowberries from depth worms, I'm going to get some moles and make moggles for night fights" oh nvm, instant full moon literally every single night...

Wanna bust out your glass axe to chop up some trees?  Mine your field of marbel?  Yeah, you'll get out there ready to chop and Max drops 3 harvesters who out pace you, chop, shovel, and gather and that Max?  He's in the next screen over doing dance emotes lol

But yeah, Wolfgang is the problem lol (and Wendy, and Warly, and Wanda...)

[Cassielu]

The funny things is, this problem can be best and easily solved... If Wolfgang gets a nerf. lol

This is the cost of each character special power, just as the Scale Armor is meaningless to willow.

[Yuuko]

42 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

 

This is the cost of each character special power, just as the Scale Armor is meaningless to willow.

Incorrect lol  The fire retaliate is great for Willow.  It gets her some crowd control and free damage.

fwiw - my suggestion for the BS stuff is instead of planar damage being some weird calculation that it just did a flat ~101 damage ignoring any modifications.  In this case Wolfgang is still strong, but all other characters would have access to something closer to him as a reward for clearing all this stuff.  I think that is a bit better then trying to bring 1 character down.

[astroapyr]

I get what you are saying, even if I don't play Wolfgang or entirely understand how planar offense/defense works, it seems pretty unfair for him.

Maybe, instead of all the characters dealing the same damage, they could deal a slightly decreased percentage of their original damage. This way, even if it weakens Wolfgang and the other survivors a bit, he remains being the strongest against planar entities with the right gear.

 

On the other hand, this seems unfair/unnecessary for some other reasons:

-Planar defense makes all characters the same,  while this is practically a debuff for all characters that can deal extra damage (Wolfgang, Wanda, Maxwell, Warly-&-friends and Wendy), it almost buffs others like Wes and Wendy herself and changing it would then be unfair for Wendy and Wes players.

-The brightshade sword deals extra damage to shadow creatures and hopefully the scythe will deal extra damage to moon creatures. They aren't useless for Wolfgang, you can still use them to defeat bosses and other common enemies.

-This is a 3 part update, and probably the planar armors and weapons are not the goal but the means for a greater reward that could be seen in the third update or following updates.

 

Anyhow, hope this ends with a fix of your liking.

 

[chirsg]

18 minutes ago, astroapyr said:

This is a 3 part update

I can't wait for 3/3 to just force us to regenerate world. My 9500 day world was getting awfully passé anyway. 

[Popian]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

But yeah, Wolfgang is the problem lol (and Wendy, and Warly, and Wanda...)

That Wolfgang does not potentially bring as much as other characters is valid. For what he does it is cheap and convenient.

16 minutes ago, astroapyr said:

-Planar defense makes all characters the same

It should be noted that when using Dark Swords Wolfgang almost halves the number of cycles to deal with the existing planar mobs. It's when you get planar weapons (that perform better than his baseline with the Dark Sword) that he is practically only saving on weapon durability vs. another character, as the battles aren't long enough that the reduced number of hits would be very impactful in preventing a death.

[D_Good_Fellow]

9 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Wanna bust out your glass axe to chop up some trees?  Mine your field of marbel?  Yeah, you'll get out there ready to chop and Max drops 3 harvesters who out pace you, chop, shovel, and gather and that Max?  He's in the next screen over doing dance emotes lol

The fact that Maxwell outshines the literal lumberjack character when it comes to gathering wood is absolutely hilarious to me.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, D_Good_Fellow said:

The fact that Maxwell outshines the literal lumberjack character when it comes to gathering wood is absolutely hilarious to me.

AND from minute 1.  He spawns in with the book full, no other resources or actions needed, and its very cheap to refil.

tbh no other character has ever made me feel like I was dumb to even start a task then when I went to mine marble and the max player was like "Oh I got that" and dropped 3 gatherers.

I've never had a Wolfgang next to me fighting and thought I shouldn't also be there.  Whether its aggro control, non-combat tasks, or even just adding more damage I was still a part of those fights.  Even moving statues I was actually helping b/c I could craft them as Wolf moved them around and build other structures.

If a player runs off and fights a boss alone without telling anyone, leaving them out of the experience that is a player issue, not a Wolfgang issue.  Kinda like kicking Willow b/c you're afraid she'll burn down your base, these players can do these things with any character.

[Vinja]

The biggest fail to me is that currently there is literally no incentive  to even activate the rifts for wolf mains. The cons pretty much outweigh the pros as is but with klei deciding wolfgang doesn’t really get to benefit from the new gear there are pretty much no pros at all for him. Why even activate them? For a sword that has a bit extra durability? Not a very compelling argument when you consider the tradeoff.

On 6/3/2023 at 10:56 PM, bigboss2169 said:

You can go turn off bosses, turn on less damage, turn on rifts via world settings. Enjoy your game i don"t care. Personally i dont like doing that. I believe that default settings are the intended way of playing the game.

There is no “I believe default settings are the intended way”

They are. Point blank, period.

You can play the game however you want, just stay out of it when people are arguing about default settings. Saying “well you can get brightshade gear super easy if you just turn them on in settings” is the most braindead response. Yeah and I can just turn enemies off too and make all resources lots and turn off hunger lethality and turn off nightmare creatures and turn on less damage. 
 

Is that the way klei intends for the game to be played? If someone wanted to get the full don’t starve experience and play the game how it was made to be played they would say just go with the default options.

 Now, that doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing to take advantage of the server settings. As Mike said, they exist for a reason. But the default settings also exist for a reason. If I wanna join an official server to enjoy the game with some random folks I can’t just turn on rifts. I can’t turn off sanity monsters. I can’t set it to relaxed mode. You play the game the way klei intends when you play their servers. That’s why default settings matter and why people argue about what the default settings should be.

So if you wanna sit in your server you made exactly to your liking and enjoy your settings that’s perfectly fine, just stay out of the default settings argument. Saying “you can change the settings” helps no one at all we all know that’s a possibility in private servers okay we see it every time we launch our world. But that is not universally true. I can’t change the settings when I play officials. 
 

also sorry mike I know Xbox doesn’t have officials but that doesn’t change the principle and I hope klei can put some officials up for you guys in the future.

[Pig Princess]

I also see no reason to specifically nerf damage-stacking characters and combos. I'm not sure if this was exact intention though or just happened coincidentally because Klei tried to nerf high-damage weapons and just so happened to hit character-specific modifiers by collateral damage.

I said a lot during Wolfgang rework (beta, and re-rework), and repeat main part now: it's ok to have damage modifiers go without artificial caps or such. Why? Because their worth increases/decreases naturally.

Example. I'm picking Wilson and going to fight Misery Toadstool, let's say with weather pains (because I actually did it and remember numbers of used weather pains that I consistently need, plus they can be used to measure time of the fight because toad spawns trees on timer). 12 weather pains are needed. In case Wolfgang fight is the same, as he doesn't have other advantages that would change fight style entirely. I also did it on practice, by the way, and it's 6 weather pains. 6 less than normal, great, isn't it? Some may find worth in changing to Wolfgang for that fight alone.

Now let's say I'm Warly, have pepper-spiced volt goat jelly and caves are wet. I deal 3x damage, need 4 weather pains. And if I'm Wolfgang with jelly, I deal 6x damage and need 2. Now question: if I have access to volt goat jelly already, is it that needed to switch to Wolfgang for those 2 saved weather pains and cutting off 1/6 of initial fight length? If I'm Wolfgang, is it that needed for me to switch to Warly for jelly and save 4 weather pains (1/3 of the fight length compared to initial)? One may choose any answer, but important thing is that wow-6x-damage decreases time and resources non-linearly, 1x>2x and 1x>3x transitions being much more noticeable than 2(3)x>6x. Even if that was possible, further damage stacking would make even less of a difference.

That happens because mobs have fixed health, so if we draw a plot of time(resources) needed from damage modifier (or just damage, which could also be changed via weapon), it would be y=const/x function - basic hyperbole - with y being time and x - damage modifier (or damage in general, respectively). Because of this there is certain part of curve that is reasonably susceptible to both x and y if one moves in any direction regarding current x (damage); if we go past that region to higher amount of damage, it's influence is barely noticeable, and if we go in opposite direction, every further damage decrease influences result enormally, and all of this is already in ridiculously high numbers of y (resources/time), at which point it's impractical with current health of enemy ("const" in this case). So yes, -0.25x on Wes feels more impactful than +0.25x of Wigfrid because it indeed is. Mathematically. Job of developer in that case is to adjust this equation - via changing damage (via modifiers, weapons or other means) or (effective) mob health - to the point when no character from 0.75x-3x cast feels in either of curve regions that stick to y or x axis.

Currently characters are in fine place against most of the enemies in that regard. Number of hits thresholds aside, transition from 34 to 51 damage feels the most impactful while still being used practically (nobody really fights with <34 damage for a reason), so I wish Wolfgang was left alone.

-------------------------

As for planar weapons, I see no harm in planar part being able to scale with damage modifier. No, it won't defeat purpose of it's existence. Because while Wolfgang would have his full 2x damage against regular mobs with new weapons, against creatures with planar defense planar weapons would still be preferable, since planar defense penetration is the key there. If anything, it would soften Wilsonization planar stuff does, as Wolfgang with new weapons against planar creatures would be more impactful than Wilson with new weapons against planar creatures compared to current state. Which I find preferable approach. Whether we really need tier 2 combat encounters that artificially are made so that we are pushed into tier 2 weapons, is a topic for another discussion though.

As for 3+ players melting bosses, they mostly do it not because of damage increase, but because of number increase and task division, as well as non-damage output increasing - chopping potential in toadstool fight and increase of stunlock-proofness. In latter case, for example, 8 grumble bees would stunlock 2 Wolfgangs (4x damage, 4 bees per damage sponge), but would only mildly inconvenience 4 Wilsons (4x damage, 2 bees per damage sponge).

[Waynel]

We've gone through countless reworks as well as balance complaints, and yet Wolfgang remains the strongest character of Don't Starve, hah!

 

[Gashzer]

Its ok to nerf wolfgang in the late game because wolfgang is a day 1 max power early game character like wortox is. (Wurt, wanda, warly are late game characters for comparison)

Wolfgang can gain 2x damage about 30secs after leaving portal on day 1 and has that forever. Its so easy to maintain mightiness. And 2x damage is an insane buff for all stages of the game to have at day 1.

Warly for example has to grow crops which is insanely time consuming to gain only temporary buffs. Volt goat chaud is also extremely temporary for the hassle of obtaining volt goat horns. Warly has to work very hard to obtain buffs and effects to even remotely come close to wolfgangs day 1 power. 

Now people are complaining that the new gear doesnt boost wolfgangs insane power further?

Are you all mad?

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Its ok to nerf wolfgang in the late game because wolfgang is a day 1 max power early game character like wortox is. (Wurt, wanda, warly are late game characters for comparison)

Wolfgang can gain 2x damage about 30secs after leaving portal on day 1 and has that forever. Its so easy to maintain mightiness. And 2x damage is an insane buff for all stages of the game to have at day 1.

Warly for example has to grow crops which is insanely time consuming to gain only temporary buffs. Volt goat chaud is also extremely temporary for the hassle of obtaining volt goat horns. Warly has to work very hard to obtain buffs and effects to even remotely come close to wolfgangs day 1 power. 

Now people are complaining that the new gear doesnt boost wolfgangs insane power further?

Are you all mad?

I've mostly been avoiding this topic because I don't play Wolfgang I do feel like it was fine for him to lose the speed boost as well as that he wasn't compensated enough for his loss but I feel like the game should stop balancing itself around speed boosts in general. However to say Wolfgang needs to be taken down a peg because he's too strong out the gate leads me to ask what about Maxwell, and Wendy?

Yea I know they're not Wolfgang levels of damage output but:

Maxwell's a whole squad with cc and sanity regen out of spawn

Wendy's just got the strongest aoe weapon in the game and it has infinite durability with no real consequences

Their popularity speaks for itself yea they're far from the heaviest hitters but I think we as community need to take a step back and remember that high single target damage or even just damage in general isn't the only thing that makes a character unbalanced and no I don't feel Wolfgang is unbalanced at all compared to the rest of the cast.

6 hours ago, D_Good_Fellow said:

The fact that Maxwell outshines the literal lumberjack character when it comes to gathering wood is absolutely hilarious to me.

Honestly he powercreeps him in multiple aspects really. His duelists are better safer fighters than the moose on average, his minions being able to walk on water and actually pick things up and fight making them a better water tool than the goose. and his servants being able to chop, mine, dig, and being able to pick things up makes them a superior gatherer to the beaver due to the beaver only being able to chop, mine, and dig. This is compounded by the fact making idols and mitigating the harmful effects is far more time consuming than collecting nightmare fuel.

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

I've mostly been avoiding this topic because I don't play Wolfgang I do feel like it was fine for him to lose the speed boost as well as that he wasn't compensated enough for his loss but I feel like the game should stop balancing itself around speed boosts in general. However to say Wolfgang needs to be taken down a peg because he's too strong out the gate leads me to ask what about Maxwell, and Wendy?

Yea I know they're not Wolfgang levels of damage output but:

Maxwell's a whole squad with cc and sanity regen out of spawn

Wendy's just got the strongest aoe weapon in the game and it has infinite durability with no real consequences

Maxwells got a whole squad that cant move from a specific area. Dont get me wrong, maxwell is very fun now but i find myself constantly needing to farm nightmare fuel to use his abilities and nightmare creatures are abit annoying to repeatedly farm tbh. Wolfgang is so strong for practically zero upkeep required.

Wendy gets outcompeted by wormwood and his bramble husk for AoE. Wendy is popular to noobs for her ease of access and aesthetic but anyone who is of average skill or better, will find playing as winona or wormwood alot more useful. Wormwoods bramble husks are cheap to access and any character can become abigail while wearing it, this is great for solo players who can switch to wormwood for bramble husks then back to wolfgang for AoE and op damage. There is zero reason to play wendy if you are a solo player.

Even webber is better than wendy for relocating spider dens and getting them quickly to tier 3 near base for easy farming plus can easily tame an army for killing bee queen. 

So yeah maxwell and wendy are not even close to being in the same power-league as wolfgang is. Wendy is not even close to being in the middle-esh power level of the roster.

[Vinja]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Maxwells got a whole squad that cant move from a specific area. Dont get me wrong, maxwell is very fun now but i find myself constantly needing to farm nightmare fuel to use his abilities and nightmare creatures are abit annoying to repeatedly farm tbh. Wolfgang is so strong for practically zero upkeep required.

There are zero boss fights in the entire game that roam around enough for Maxwells minions to be ineffective due to their range mechanic.

But let’s pretend there are and that what you said there was a valid argument. Maxwell can do what, maybe 5 or 6 minions before he goes permanently insane? That’s literally one nightmare fuel or one and 1/5 of a second nightmare fuel. His costs to use his abilities are practically zero. I can easily sustain all of my incidental nightmare fuel requirements by using the shadow prison to capture 2 to 3 rabbits and then using the trap to make them nightmare rabbits, which you can then kill for free to gain 2-3 nightmare fuel. I can easily do this 2-3 times per day just casually walking by the rabbits which results in more fuel than you’ll ever need for any incidental purpose.
 

If you want to farm nightmare fuel there are bunnymen methods, shadow splemunkey methods, and also the insanely broken shadow piece farm method which nets you literally hundreds of nightmare fuel for a relatively small setup cost. Fuel is only a problem if you have no idea how to get it or ignorantly think that farming nightmare creatures is the best method. At all stages of gameplay Maxwell has access to more fuel than he knows what to do with.

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Wendy gets outcompeted by wormwood and his bramble husk for AoE. Wendy is popular to noobs for her ease of access and aesthetic but anyone who is of average skill or better, will find playing as winona or wormwood alot more useful. Wormwoods bramble husks are cheap to access and any character can become abigail while wearing it, this is great for solo players who can switch to wormwood for bramble husks then back to wolfgang for AoE and op damage. There is zero reason to play wendy if you are a solo player.

You need to take damage to use the bramble husk. You also have to farm the materials for husks which isn’t terribly hard so long as you have plenty of healing for living logs which is gonna take a good chunk of time to setup. Wendy has access to Abigail at all times for free so long as you’re smart enough to keep her alive. Abigail also kills hordes faster than bramble husks. Winona is insanely strong at the cost of setting up farms, Wendy has her insane power instantly from day 1 with access to buff items that are super easy to get at the cost of a small amount of time running a pipspook around. You can also use a beefalo to nullify your damage reduction and reach pretty high DPS numbers with free AOE, plus Abigail debuffs enemies which makes them take increased damage. Essentially calling Abigail a glorified bramble husk or saying that she is somehow outcompeted by the thing is just ignorant, period.
 

If you’re talking about character swapping then you can pretty much play whoever you want because you can setup catapults and use Wanda to cheese klaus, CC, then use catapults and wolf for FW, use WX for easy ruins clears, use catapults for BQ. Character swapping can literally trivialize anything and that has nothing to do with wolfgang it’s literally the worst argument to make that wolfgang is OP.

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Even webber is better than wendy for relocating spider dens and getting them quickly to tier 3 near base for easy farming plus can easily tame an army for killing bee queen.

You don’t need to get tier 3s near base to farm spiders all you accomplish by doing that is unnecessarily lagging your server Wendy can spend a single day walking through a spider forest and leave with more loot than webber and faster because Abigail kills spiders much faster than spiders kill each other plus you don’t lose nearly as much meat. With Wendy there is no need to setup a spider farm she is a walking spider farm from day 1. And you don’t need tier 3s to get tons of loot, early game you just need to hit more tier 1s and 2s which is easy because she steamrolls them. Webber is not better than Wendy due to spider farming, his massive upside is his spider army capabilities.

Also Wendy doesn’t need to setup a giant army to kill bee queen she is a one man army for bee queen because Abigail’s aoe renders grumblebees useless due to stunlock so as long as Wendy is tanking the queen and has enough healing bee queen is a joke. Just pop a couple potions for Abby and steamroll bee queen.

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

. So yeah maxwell and wendy are not even close to being in the same power-league as wolfgang is. Wendy is not even close to being in the middle-esh power level of the roster.

This statement right here is the icing on the cake, you genuinely have no idea how strong these characters are or how to play to their strengths. Maxwell + Beefalo + Shadow minions + tier 3 shadow gear to buff minions is the highest dps in the game. Plus beefalo negates maxwells low HP downside. You clearly do not have the experience in game to be making any of these arguments. Ignorant arguments like these are the reason the misconception that Wolfgang is OP exists.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Maxwells got a whole squad that cant move from a specific area. Dont get me wrong, maxwell is very fun now but i find myself constantly needing to farm nightmare fuel to use his abilities and nightmare creatures are abit annoying to repeatedly farm tbh. Wolfgang is so strong for practically zero upkeep required.

Wendy gets outcompeted by wormwood and his bramble husk for AoE. Wendy is popular to noobs for her ease of access and aesthetic but anyone who is of average skill or better, will find playing as winona or wormwood alot more useful. Wormwoods bramble husks are cheap to access and any character can become abigail while wearing it, this is great for solo players who can switch to wormwood for bramble husks then back to wolfgang for AoE and op damage. There is zero reason to play wendy if you are a solo player.

Even webber is better than wendy for relocating spider dens and getting them quickly to tier 3 near base for easy farming plus can easily tame an army for killing bee queen. 

So yeah maxwell and wendy are not even close to being in the same power-league as wolfgang is. Wendy is not even close to being in the middle-esh power level of the roster.

I've seen your argument about Bramble Husk before, and yes it can do great aoe BUT you need to be the center of aggression for it to work.  Abi will gladly chase down butterflies, spiders, bees etc to draw aggro while you casually pick things up.  Webber is restricted to only spiders, where Abi can farm anything.  Abi also gives a strong dps bonus, which combos with beefalo bypassing her own damage penalty pumping Wendy's damage numbers up in both aoe and single target while also getting the best speed boost in the game.  Wormwood has no single target, and the spider army Webber can raise for single target takes a lot more effort both to obtain and maintain.

You may find farming nm fuel is difficult, but I have found it is not.  Early game a ham bat and a good nm cycle during an ruins rush can easily yield a stack of fuel.  Late game as you read Wicker's books you'll naturally farm the shadow enemies to continue fueling your powers.  Once you get the bone helm its nearly zero effort to keep him going.  He barely needs any fuel, so if you dip into one of the more serious nm fuel farms like shadow pieces jank you can be set for life.  There are a lot of ways to jank more nm fuel with Maxwell too b/c he can transform creatures to their nm variant allowing him to use farms to acquire his fuel.  Other characters can't use neutral mobs to farm his fuel like tall birds vs bunnymen b/c they have to get the killing blow to get the shadow drops.  His cage is also obscenely OP lol you can lock down bosses and all their minions with these really warping some fights.

Wolfgang has only damage, and its only single target.  Even his resource gathering perk degrades tools to ensure he's only cheating time, not resources.  Yes you could switch to Wormwood for Bramble Husks and switch to Wolfgang for dps, but something I've found is the more I character swap, the less Wolfgang matters.  His damage is the only thing he brings to the table.  If I need damage and I'm swapping anyway, I swap to Wanda and use her clocks for instant teleports saving a lot of time and getting just as much damage.  If I need more then just damage I sit on Maxwell for unlimited full moons, control over rain / wildfires, and ez gathering.  Damage stacking naturally has a diminishing return and with swapping I can bundle up a whole lot of chaud froid giving me an easy 50% damage boost on whatever character I happen to be using for their non-combat perks which is enough that swapping to Wolfgang just to fight a Deerclops or Antlion, or whatever other combat happens upon me would be a waste of time.

I mean, if you're swapping anyway even Wicker out does Wolfgang b/c summon rain + chili chaud froid is 3x damage lol

[_zwb]

6 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

There are a lot of ways to jank more nm fuel with Maxwell too b/c he can transform creatures to their nm variant allowing him to use farms to acquire his fuel. 

For example, if you set up a bunnymen farm with 40 hutches, you can literally get 40 nf every night for free. This is just broken op(but I love it, hate farming fuel manually so much)