Since klei just fixed the bee queen boat cheese, do you think they should tackle the other ones?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Its 2 things.  Walls and lavea.  That's it.  How complicated do you think this is?

how did you realize they get stuck on lava ponds if you build walls? was by your own or by the community? now imagine being a dev that has as job designing one little thing on a big game that you dont play. Watch some klei streams and you will see that they know little about the big picture because they arent playing the game 24/7 and watching and reading stuff from the community for years.

They didnt even notice that the pseudoscience station room didnt generated properly or that certain room in the ruins with 5 statues and 4 night lights didnt spawn due to a little error. These are easy to spot bugs if you code and play, even easier than knowing how might interact certain mobs if someone decides to build a wall

things  are easier to see afterwards from a certain perspective, you should think with that in mind

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Watch some klei streams

Me trying to make it through the klei stream when they didn't Speedrun CC DAY 6:

[Thrul]

5 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

so basically remove every strat ever except for literal challenge fights since every boss is incredibly easy to do without cheese with the right gear after 5 minutes of watching a youtube video

if it's slightly better in a clever way, and doesn't mess up the gameplay to the lengths that you people go on tirades like this, then it doesn't need to be removed. i think its a good indicator of a strategy being too overpowered and thus a cheese when people cannot live without it.

[Thrul]

6 hours ago, Shosuko said:

 

But still fact remains - nothing is taken away from you, that I utilize a strat in my world.  If you feel you are constantly joining worlds where people refuse to do something a different way, majority says do x why should you be so special to override them?  If you're on a world where people want to do dfly without a wall, then have at it!

Nothing is at stake for you here, nothing changes for you - if anything gets patched out it only effects players who were using it.  Players who want to do it.

 

your right, maybe i should just shut up. i dont even play with other people. just always makes me mad when people cheat my favourite games to get to places i spend actual effort getting to

[Mike23Ua]

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

how did you realize they get stuck on lava ponds if you build walls? was by your own or by the community? now imagine being a dev that has as job designing one little thing on a big game that you dont play. Watch some klei streams and you will see that they know little about the big picture because they arent playing the game 24/7 and watching and reading stuff from the community for years.

They didnt even notice that the pseudoscience station room didnt generated properly or that certain room in the ruins with 5 statues and 4 night lights didnt spawn due to a little error. These are easy to spot bugs if you code and play, even easier than knowing how might interact certain mobs if someone decides to build a wall

things  are easier to see afterwards from a certain perspective, you should think with that in mind

I 100% agree with this!, The developers need to play their own game, not just code it.. or develop it, but rather fall in love with actually playing it as if they were a gamer. I thought when they hired that one guy Zarklord or whatever who actually played the game that they’d get a better general idea of what is fun/what is not fun.. what works as intended/what still needs work. But Zark Alone does not define the entirety of Klei.. I’d personally like to see people like JoeW, Nome, MisterDaL, Peter, Etc actually playing their own game. I want to see them bring to life what parts of the game “they” find most fun and enjoyable.. After all, to truly win the Labor of love reward you have to love your Labor right?? I wanna see the current devs, or newly hired devs who love playing DS/DST let’s put them on the content developing team. Cause I have no doubt in my mind when people fall in love with the gameplay itself- great updates/new improved or better ideas would come from that.

[Capybara007]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

 After all, to truly win the Labor of love reward you have to love your Labor right?

cant agree harder

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

how did you realize they get stuck on lava ponds if you build walls? was by your own or by the community? now imagine being a dev that has as job designing one little thing on a big game that you dont play. Watch some klei streams and you will see that they know little about the big picture because they arent playing the game 24/7 and watching and reading stuff from the community for years.

They didnt even notice that the pseudoscience station room didnt generated properly or that certain room in the ruins with 5 statues and 4 night lights didnt spawn due to a little error. These are easy to spot bugs if you code and play, even easier than knowing how might interact certain mobs if someone decides to build a wall

things  are easier to see afterwards from a certain perspective, you should think with that in mind

Lava ponds aren't even needed.  Literally just walls and lavae is all you need.

Which illustrates just how ill-informed, hasty, clumsy, and arbitrary the calls for these changes are...

And what does it matter whether I learned something from youtube or on my own?  You can youtube how to beat dfly with an ice staff, does that mean we can't use that method either?  Did you trademark these methods or something?

Spoiler

OH NO SOMEONE PUT A VIDEO OF BEATING DFLY WITHOUT PAN FLUTE OR WALL!!!  NOW ANYONE WHO WATCHES THIS VIDEO CAN'T DO THIS

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

15 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

And what does it matter whether I learned something from youtube or on my own?  You can youtube how to beat dfly with an ice staff, does that mean we can't use that method either?  Did you trademark these methods or something?

i need to explain that i asked for how much time will take for a player to know certain things if even that player realizes that such things can be done?

whatever

i dont care they fixing or not fixing stuff but both sides are justifing their bias with bland points. At the end is klei who decides if they wanna fix their game

[Monkey Cups]

While I'm not familiar with the particular way of killing bee queen that started this thread, I don't believe in punishing people for being clever. Or patching things used almost exclusively by speedrunners. (Looking at YOU, Elden Ring.)

[Capybara007]

literally just plan a beequeen rework ahead, that is the best klei can do

UM did a good job at reworking beequeen, they could go in that direction

[Monkey Cups]

10 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Kinda doubt you've played many games then.  Maybe check out some speed runs of like, literally any game ever?

You know what for funzies I've compiled a few examples for people:

This channel dedicated to breaking games in general

This one for FromSoft games

Zelda and Metroid speedruns

Breath of the Wild glitches

Elden Ring zip glitch

Glitching Pokemon Blue

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I 100% agree with this!, The developers need to play their own game, not just code it.. or develop it, but rather fall in love with actually playing it as if they were a gamer. I thought when they hired that one guy Zarklord or whatever who actually played the game that they’d get a better general idea of what is fun/what is not fun.. what works as intended/what still needs work. But Zark Alone does not define the entirety of Klei.. I’d personally like to see people like JoeW, Nome, MisterDaL, Peter, Etc actually playing their own game. I want to see them bring to life what parts of the game “they” find most fun and enjoyable.. After all, to truly win the Labor of love reward you have to love your Labor right?? I wanna see the current devs, or newly hired devs who love playing DS/DST let’s put them on the content developing team. Cause I have no doubt in my mind when people fall in love with the gameplay itself- great updates/new improved or better ideas would come from that.

A very salient point - and one I'd take a step further - before you (not you specifically, just people) demean an endeavor, try it out?

At least so you can understand what the actual problems / solutions can be?

I've played the bosses legit.  Its fun to do it !  Its also a lot more prone to having something go wrong.  DST is a game where everything is so soo sooo easy, until something goes wrong.  These set ups aren't just about making a fight easier, they're also about making the fight more consistent b/c lets face it - playing for 2 hours only to get the world wiped at dfly or bqueen isn't exactly on our todo list...  Knowing that we can gear up with a handful of ice staves, marble armor, and a stack of perogies is great for doing dfly "the real way," but the game isn't binary.  I can do dfly with and without a wall, in the same world even.  No one tactic denies others unless of course you appeal to Klei to change the game to delete things you don't like.  tbh choice is the replay value in DST, figuring things out is the replay value - even if "figuring things out" means "watching a youtube to see what others are doing."  I promise you hits for dfly wall cheese and dfly no-wall are both there to be copied...

[Mike23Ua]

15 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

A very salient point - and one I'd take a step further - before you (not you specifically, just people) demean an endeavor, try it out?

At least so you can understand what the actual problems / solutions can be?

I've played the bosses legit.  Its fun to do it !  Its also a lot more prone to having something go wrong.  DST is a game where everything is so soo sooo easy, until something goes wrong.  These set ups aren't just about making a fight easier, they're also about making the fight more consistent b/c lets face it - playing for 2 hours only to get the world wiped at dfly or bqueen isn't exactly on our todo list...  Knowing that we can gear up with a handful of ice staves, marble armor, and a stack of perogies is great for doing dfly "the real way," but the game isn't binary.  I can do dfly with and without a wall, in the same world even.  No one tactic denies others unless of course you appeal to Klei to change the game to delete things you don't like.  tbh choice is the replay value in DST, figuring things out is the replay value - even if "figuring things out" means "watching a youtube to see what others are doing."  I promise you hits for dfly wall cheese and dfly no-wall are both there to be copied...

This wasn’t about DFLY, it’s about people being able to dumbfound the A.I. of enemy mobs and get them “Stuck” so they just stand there unable to move & really fight back.

to put it into a better perspective.. when you lag and stand in one spot but the rest of the game still moves normally and you end up taking hits you couldn’t properly avoid.

That is essentially what people were doing when they got AG stuck on pillars, Klaus stuck on his loot stash or Bee Queen stuck at the edge of the land.

Klei coded hound waves to jump in water and swim, so why on earth are larvae too dumb to swim through their own magma ponds? Obviously an oversight in mob behavior.

Personally I wish the tier of wall you choose to build actually meant something in DST.. like how in most other survival games, and believe it or not dst is still advertised and sold as a survival game- the weaker your walls, the easier they are to break and get through.

Larvae should leak through the crack in cobblestone walls, but a higher tier wall like marble or moonrock should hold them off better.

So far the only strategies I’ve seen Klei “patch out” are the ones that allowed players to get the A.I. stuck unable to perform properly.

I don’t think Klei gives a heck if you built a Pigman village and equipped them all in Miners hats so they don’t panic at sunset to help you fight a boss that sleeps at night like the Moose/Goose.

Thats a valid strategy, getting a boss stuck endlessly trying to walk over its own loot stash as you smack the crap out of it is not.

But I still say Klei devs should play their own game to know exactly what is fun, what sucks, what’s working and spawning in as intended, what’s been broken and glitchy for years.. etc.

[Mysterious box]

10 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

If like 99% of players use cheese strategies, isn't there something wrong with how the boss fight currently exists?

This is true however a dev in most cases won't realise there is a problem until cheese is removed if the stats so most people are having a easy time defeating a boss then the assumption then is the boss is fair and balanced but it doesn't account for people cheesing the fight as cheese can cover up issues like these.

[Notecja]

I sometimes just prefer cheese, when for any reason solo fight is too tendious.

Yes, I have skill issue and kitting is too hard for me.

[Cheggf]

6 hours ago, Monkey Cups said:

While I'm not familiar with the particular way of killing bee queen that started this thread, I don't believe in punishing people for being clever. Or patching things used almost exclusively by speedrunners. (Looking at YOU, Elden Ring.)

No one's being punished for being clever and no one's speed running the game.

[Yuuko]

45 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

No one's being punished for being clever and no one's speed running the game.

..................................................

Spoiler

[Monkey Cups]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

No one's being punished for being clever and no one's speed running the game.

lmao I knew I forgot something

Edit: oh, and something an actual Hue Man can do, before anyone gets cheeky about that one being tool assisted. Wolfgang go brrr

[dois raios]

35 minutes ago, Monkey Cups said:

Edit: oh, and something an actual Hue Man can do, before anyone gets cheeky about that one being tool assisted. Wolfgang go brrr

 

there is also this speedrun

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Monkey Cups said:

lmao I knew I forgot something

Edit: oh, and something an actual Hue Man can do, before anyone gets cheeky about that one being tool assisted. Wolfgang go brrr

https://www.speedrun.com/do_not_starve_together

[Guille6785]

51 minutes ago, dois raios said:

there is also this speedrun

that's also not an actual run

5 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

https://www.speedrun.com/do_not_starve_together

the boards are dead because they're managed by 1 person who made up some absurdly tedious rules which make it so you can't even submit a run unless it meets a long list of requirements that you'll spend more time trying to follow than actually playing, nobody who's ever speedran dst seriously has used those boards

[Dunk Mujunk]

I was going to dig through the forums to find more or less this exact thread repeated a bunch of times over the years, but I kinda lost interest. Mainly because I found better stuff.

Before I produce the goods, my stance on "cheese" (not a great word, it's vague and everyone from both sides has different definitions) is.....meh.

We aren't playing a competitive multiplayer game. There are no leaderboards. You are never forced to play with people you would rather not play with. Worrying about what other people do with their own free time in their own bubble is a good way to drive yourself crazy.

If you don't like how randoms on the internet play a game.....don't play with them. The adults in this group (I'm sure there are at least a few) should know this. This is the internet, we all know about the internet. To maximize internet gaming experience, play with friends and like-minded people. Fairly simple.

That said, I can see some merits on both sides of the argument. Me and my wife "cheese" DFly with walls. That's just what we've done forever, and we will continue to do it unless it gets patched, at which point I suppose we will try this Ice Staff method I've been reading about. I do think it's a bit strange that there are people here we will never play with who are angry with how we play on our own time in our own world. 

On the other hand, the first time we attempted to fight Misery Toad we tried the Flower/Flingo/Star Caller method. It was during Spring, it was raining in the caves, and I think it almost bricked my PS4. After that mess we fought her straight up and it really wasn't that bad. I really enjoy the MT fight (apparently I'm one of the few). So I can see the merit to getting out of your comfort zone and trying something new, it might not be all that bad.

Another point to note, DST "combat" is all about kiting. Kiting was never a "good" thing. Kiting is something you did in old RPGs when either the balance of a game was garbage or you were "cheesing" your way through an area you weren't properly levelled/kitted for. I'm not knocking Klei or DST, but let's be honest, this is not an action game. The "combat" as bare bones as it gets. 

And finally, I really hope everyone knows (as I do, I've debated for a couple days on whether to even post in this thread) this is of course the internet. No one here is changing anyone else's minds. Everyone has picked their sides and is preaching to the choir. That's all I'm doing with this post. Kind of a waste of time, unfortunately.

Now the goodies (with links)-

 

I'll pretty much let everyone make up their own mind about what these mean to them. I'll just point out that the DFly wall issue specifically has been known of obviously for a while, and other actual DFly glitch (i.e. "cheese") methods have been removed. I read that as walls working as intended. Not sure how I feel about Pig Farms, we don't really use that so I could care less either way. Not sure what this BeeQueen deal was, we spam Bunny Huts on her. I used to enjoy blowing up Deerclops with Gunpowder (19 to still get the drops), now we just Tree Guard him/her/it. Exact same situation with Bearger, and he gets telelocate deported to a small Lunar Island after 2 years. MooseGoose gets the Frog Rain treatment, used to blow her up too. 

At the end of the day, play with people you enjoy playing with. When people in real life do things you don't like, you simply don't hang out with them. If you did, it would suck. Why would you do that to yourself on the internet? 

[Cheggf]

6 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

that's also not an actual run

the boards are dead because they're managed by 1 person who made up some absurdly tedious rules which make it so you can't even submit a run unless it meets a long list of requirements that you'll spend more time trying to follow than actually playing, nobody who's ever speedran dst seriously has used those boards

Why do you say that immediately after telling someone else the run they posted wasn't legitimate?

[Guille6785]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Why do you say that immediately after telling someone else the run they posted wasn't legitimate?

I meant it wasn't done on a real world, it's a seed which is being used purely for demostration of strategies i.e. it's not an actual speedrun, it's not competing for any times

[Yuuko]

I want to clear up a few things that I think people need to consider when talking about this.  Namely what is "intended," a bug, and cheese.

When I code something I write its behavior.  I may not know the fullness of the interactions, but as long as it is behaving as I've written it, then it is behaving "as intended."  If I code a locked door and put the door's key somewhere, then finding that key to access the door is pretty clearly intended.  If I also give that door a health value and you're able to damage it, then breaking it down is intended as well.  It may be significantly easier to get through the door one way or another, but they are both intended options.

Bugs are flaws in code that allow for unintended interactions.  When you clip through a map you're pretty obviously violating the "intention" of the map.  Clipping through a wall to access a locked room is very different then unlocking the door or breaking it down.

Cheese is a strategy, that's all it is.  When you cheese a boss you're employing a strat that minimizes the boss.  Sometimes cheese employs bugs, but cheese its self is just a strategy.  Examples in DST of cheese include gunpowder stacks, minions, path obstruction, mob protection (like running a hound wave through a herd of beefs,) sleep, ice, and more.  These are all cheese because they make dealing with things significantly easier.  Sure some require more skill or setup then others, but they all make encounters significantly easier.

Old AG => working as intended?

Spoiler

AG used to have a cheese strat where you'd stand next to a pillar in a way where you could attack AG, but AG could not hit you.  You could literally stand still holding F until it died.  Is this intended?  Is this a bug?  Is this cheese?

Intended => yes.  The pillars were made to have collision, be indestructible, the size and shape of their collision is by design.  AG had a certain attack range.  Did they intend for you to do this specifically?  Probably not, but it wasn't a bug.  Its a coincidence of multiple factors that lead to this cheese, but all of the parts are working as intended.

Out of Arena AFW => working as intended?

Spoiler

AFW has a cheese where you can push yourself or AFW out of the arena and attack.  AFW will not move or do any spells allowing you to just hold F until it dies.  Is this cheese?  Yes.

Intended => NO.  You're not intended to walk on the abyss, or push afw into the wall.  You're exploiting a bug to push a model into an area it cannot be, and the game forces the model over a bit to correct it.  The system for doing this is flawed because the game can't know which way is proper to push a thing, it just pushes to the closest spot where the model can stand.

Walls for Lavae => working as intended?

Spoiler

When I code a monster I can code its targeting priority.  Lavae stay locked onto the player, and will not re-aggro to walls or other mobs.

Intended => Yes.  The lavae were coded with this behavior, and are acting in accordance with that behavior.  The fact that it is exploitable is coincidence, but not "unintended."

Bug => no.  The interaction is entirely by the books.  Every mob has the same interactions.  If you get a hound targeting you they'll also path around walls.  Of course Hounds can change aggro targets allowing them to target other mobs and walls.

Cheese => Sure.  It makes the fight a lot easier to not deal with lavae, just as pan flute makes the fight a lot easier via bypassing her rage mode.  Cheese is cheese, check.

For what its worth I can appreciate bug fixes.  They take away cool interactions, but when a game is actually working incorrectly fixing it is the proper course of action.  AG had a bug that would drop aggro allowing a player to get extra damage in.  Players who did the fight "legit" were exploiting this bug to get more damage in then would have normally be allowed.  The bug was fixed and many players who had been exploiting it were upset, but it was a bug and got fixed.

BQueen pathing on a boat is a bug, likely an oversight from when water was added where they simply didn't test her pathing.  I think this fix is good for the game, just as fixing endlessly sleeping EoT or the AG one where it would drop aggro for a moment improve the experience.

Exploiting bugs is fun, but they are bugs.

Imagine you were playing pokemon and you had an attack that was very fast, and very damaging, so much so that most fights were over on the first turn before the enemy even attacked you.  OP right?  Now lets say after utilizing this attack through the entire game you end up at the final boss and suddenly it does 0 damage.  Why does it do zero damage?  You check elemental charts and find nothing.  You try it against other trainers, other of that same monster, all work as you've come to expect.  The move only does 0 damage on this boss.  Sounds like a bug right?  Certainly not like a dev decided to "balance" the move...

Things that aren't bugs, things that are working as intended, they need to be handled more carefully.  Changes like Klaus walking over his loot sack, or Wanda not attacking over small gaps in the ruins violate game logic.  Anywhere else I can separate myself from mobs and attack them with Wanda's range, but when I go to the ruins suddenly it doesn't work that way.  I can block off a boss with an indestructible structure everywhere else, even on Klaus' sack, yet Klaus just steps over it.  They actually feel like they are bugs because their interactions are inconsistent with the rest of the world.

I disagree with these changes on 2 fronts.  Inconsistent game logic is really frustrating and breaks immersion, but its also just a really bad way to balance a game.  From a game balance perspective you can say "lavae being blocked by walls is bad" but what's the course of action?  Do you really think changing the pond, or giving lavae jumps is going to remove cheese options?  Not even a bump in the road.  You could "fix" magma ponds to give them collision and I'd just use something else, or just wall up around all the pools.  Give them a jump?  Sure, I'll put down a flingo and freeze them.  Make them attack the wall?  Well now that they're changing aggro I'll just build walls randomly or bring in other mobs to distract them.

Like really, what's the end game here?  These band aid fixes are going to be so clumsy and awkward and ultimately still not fix anything...  So what's the next band aid fix?  How long until the lavae just instantly teleport to you and set you on fire?  Will it even be a game anymore, or just a series of quicktime events and scripted cutscenes?