Maxwell spawns with too much free stuff/power.

[ThymeSpirit]

16 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

This nerf suggestion in particular is a clear sabotage attempt from a Maxwell hater.

Right, because assuming everyone who opposes you is a villain who just wants to make your life miserable is a good way to have a constructive discussion (no, it's really not).

[Gi-Go]

2 minutes ago, ThymeSpirit said:

Right, because assuming everyone who opposes you is a villain who just wants to make your life miserable is a good way to have a constructive discussion (no, it's really not).

Then where is constructive discussion? 

I keep asking people why can't they just remove fuel if it bothers them so much, but instead of explaining they give me bad logic analogies. 

[Pig Princess]

3 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Then where is constructive discussion? 

I keep asking people why can't they just remove fuel if it bothers them so much, but instead of explaining they give me bad logic analogies. 

I gave you answer, and my examples are no different from your. Can you explain why my analogy is bad logic?

Edit: good meme, actually shows what would you see in the mirror if you looked.

[ThymeSpirit]

4 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I keep asking people why can't they just remove fuel if it bothers them so much, but instead of explaining they give me bad logic analogies. 

Because it's counter-intuitive, getting rid of some valuable resource "feels wrong" in a survival game. Players get into the mindset of doing their best to succeed at the game, and an action like that really ruins it. People only do that in dedicated challenges, not in regular gameplay. You don't understand game design very well if you think telling players to challenge themselves instead of the game doing it is good advice. Not everyone knows how to explain this, but you just make a conclusion that they hate the game and you personally if they can't answer.

[Gashzer]

17 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Then where is constructive discussion? 

I keep asking people why can't they just remove fuel if it bothers them so much, but instead of explaining they give me bad logic analogies. 

I pay klei money to make the best decisions on how to entertain me.... if i have to entertain myself by balancing the game myself then why did i pay for DST or why would i support klei by paying for skins?

Its not up to us to create fun and challenging gameplay for DST its on klei.

Your arguement is terrible Gi-Go.

Lets give maxwell full bone armour and bone helm on spawn too... then if you think its op, "just don't use it" is your arguement hahahaha 

[ThymeSpirit]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

I pay klei money to make the best decisions on how to entertain me.... if i have to entertain myself by balancing the game myself then why did i pay for DST or why would i support klei by paying for skins?

Its not up to us to create fun and challenging gameplay for DST its on klei.

Your arguement is terrible Gi-Go.

Lets give maxwell full bone armour and bone helm on spawn too... then if you think its op, "just don't use it" is your arguement hahahaha 

His argument would make sense if DST was a pure sandbox game (because that's how they're played - there's no challenge besides those you make for yourself), but it's a survival game first and foremost, and as such it encourages a mindset of "fighting the environment using any (legitimate) means". Having to shoot yourself in the foot in order for the game to still feel challenging is really bad game design.

[Gi-Go]

13 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I pay klei money to make the best decisions on how to entertain me.... if i have to entertain myself by balancing the game myself then why did i pay for DST or why would i support klei by paying for skins?

Its not up to us to creative fun and challenging gameplay for DST its on klei.

Your arguement is terrible Gi-Go.

Lets give maxwell full bone armour and bone helm on spawn too... then if you think its op, "just don't use it" is your arguement hahahaha 

OOOOOOOOH! now I see. Misunderstanding happened. I thought you guys just wanted to farm starting fuel instead of having it available right away because it's more fun that way for you. And I was wondering who is stopping you from doing that.

But apperanetly you unironically think starting with 6 fuel is overpowered, unbalanced and is too strong. 

/facepalm 

You can get 6 fuel in the first 2 minutes of the game. Rabbits live in a starting biome. 

[Mike23Ua]

9 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

OOOOOOOOH! now I see. Misunderstanding happened. I thought you guys just wanted to farm starting fuel instead of having it available right away because it's more fun that way for you. And I was wondering who is stopping you from doing that.

But apperanetly you unironically think starting with 6 fuel is overpowered, unbalanced and is too strong. 

/facepalm 

You can get 6 fuel in the first 2 minutes of the game. Rabbits live in a starting biome. 

And again, I’ll repeat what I’ve stated already: Just reducing the amount of NMF you start with or Reducing the % the Codex spawns with is quite literally spitting in the face of any other character who needs to jump through a whole bunch of extra gameplay hoops to unlock their perks.

Many characters can be classified as “Collect-A-Thons” meaning you need a vast variety of Ingredients to craft & use all their skills.

For example: Collecting all of Wendy’s Elixers, Or Fully Filling Wickerbottoms bookshelf with every version of her craftable books all require to player to be invested in the game, and gather various ingredients from various locations.

Its like Making Maxwells Shadow Sneak Unlock if you first needed to gather Anenemys and then throw them over into the Magicians Box/Top Hat to absorb their “snare like” ability you’d need to take a trip to a location that has Anenemy to obtain the resource needed in unlocking this ability for Maxwell.

And No lol just reducing starting NMF won’t even begin to fix the problem..

[Gi-Go]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And again, I’ll repeat what I’ve stated already: Just reducing the amount of NMF you start with or Reducing the % the Codex spawns with is quite literally spitting in the face of any other character who needs to jump through a whole bunch of extra gameplay hoops to unlock their perks.

Many characters can be classified as “Collect-A-Thons” meaning you need a vast variety of Ingredients to craft & use all their skills.

For example: Collecting all of Wendy’s Elixers, Or Fully Filling Wickerbottoms bookshelf with every version of her craftable books all require to player to be invested in the game, and gather various ingredients from various locations.

Its like Making Maxwells Shadow Sneak Unlock if you first needed to gather Anenemys and then throw them over into the Magicians Box/Top Hat to absorb their “snare like” ability you’d need to take a trip to a location that has Anenemy to obtain the resource needed in unlocking this ability for Maxwell.

And No lol just reducing starting NMF won’t even begin to fix the problem..

I know you like to collect stuff, Mike. 

[Pig Princess]

52 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I thought you guys just wanted to farm starting fuel instead of having it available right away because it's more fun that way for you.

Because we don't share the same logic as you. Your logic seems to be the following (correct me if I'm wrong): "if you think there are more possibilities/power than it should be, pretend that part of the content don't exist". According to this logic one indeed can say "if starting power/resources of Maxwell is too much for you, pretend that those resources are not here". But you didn't even understand that according to this logic I can say: "Wigfrid is glass cannon character because if you ignore armor and common healing options, player should be very careful with their health/can't afford to make mistakes". Is it true that ignoring armor and common healing as Wigfrid would make it a necessity to play as glass cannon? Yes. Is it true that Wigfrid is glass cannon? No. Only if I pretend part of content doesn't exist, I can make it look to myself that Wigfrid is glass cannon.

I only used your own logic to create that example. My own logic can be summarized like this: "if one uses any logic to make statements, and both adequate and rediculous statements can be derived using this logic, then logic is bad". Your own logic can be used to make rediculous examples, as you yourself probably see already. Which means that either your logic is bad, or my statement about logic consistency is false, or examples are derived wrong. If you think my logic is bad, explain why. If you think I made mistake while coming up with examples, explain in what way they are not valid. If your logic is wrong, admit it and find better one.

Also nice strategy to ignore arguments when you don't have a counter to them and which disprove your position.

[Mike23Ua]

34 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I know you like to collect stuff, Mike. 

It’s not really even just about collecting resources, other characters are gated behind unlocking more of their kit at a specific threshold (you need Prestihatitator unlocked or higher to research their crafts like Walters Various Ammo types or Wolfgang’s Best Dumbells, Some of Wickers Books- Etc)

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

OOOOOOOOH! now I see. Misunderstanding happened. I thought you guys just wanted to farm starting fuel instead of having it available right away because it's more fun that way for you. And I was wondering who is stopping you from doing that.

But apperanetly you unironically think starting with 6 fuel is overpowered, unbalanced and is too strong. 

/facepalm 

You can get 6 fuel in the first 2 minutes of the game. Rabbits live in a starting biome. 

Im perfectly fine with Maxwell starting with 6 fuel, i actually want other characters to spawn with more items related to their perks, wurt gets nothing for example... not fair at all.

Its just that arguement of "well if it bothers you so much then just don't use it then" is just the worst counter-arguement, its so childish and other people on the forums use it to justify buggy gameplay. Even tho it doesn't challenge Klei to improve their game.

 

[Pig Princess]

I just remembered than when Wanda was in early access alarming clock did ham bat damage once it reached 0% (with the same range, as old Wanda). I wonder if I see particular type of comments, something like "if you don't like it - stop to use alarming clock/refill it" if I search archived threads. Obviously this was more impactful feature, but this terrible logic justifies this in the same manner.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

12 hours ago, Stonetribe said:

Of all the discourse going around in the Maxwell rework, this is the thing that baffles me the most. I've seen a lot of "Maxwell hater" accusations, but like, why? It's not unheard of for people to have disdain for a fictional character, but in this case I can't remember seeing anyone giving an actual reason as to why so many people would supposedly have a personal grudge against Maxwell as opposed to just, you know, thinking his abilities needs to be toned down a bit. Last I checked, he's a pretty popular guy in the fandom. The Maxwell memes thread has been going strong for literal years!

when someone disagrees but has nothing to defend their idea start atacking and creating enemies in their mind. People asking for OP things are clearly maxwell lovers that want to make it good by making him boring and OP while people that want to enjoy the character by making an effort using his tools and without an afk brain gameplay are clearly haters that envy maxwell cuz our main isnt that strong (when we can simply change main if that were the case...). They prefer to believe this nonsense than asumming they are wrong or that people can have another opinion.

Also i guess that people saying that nerfs come from haters have "fear" of having their ego damaged cuz people asking for nerfs are asking for a more skilled or difficult Maxwell isntead of an afk idle gameplay. That triggers their competitive behaviour and they dont want to be in the "low elo" side of the discussion so they prefer to atack with nonsense rather than feel like someone wants something more difficult. Not that asking for buffs means that they are bad at the game or whatever and even if so who cares, this is not a moba but some people feel in that way even in sandboxes

we dont have anything better to do than ruining a character because we envy. The truth is that DST has X ammount of characters but not everybody likes every character, feedback comes to increase the amount of characters in our pick pools

[ThymeSpirit]

2 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

OOOOOOOOH! now I see. Misunderstanding happened. I thought you guys just wanted to farm starting fuel instead of having it available right away because it's more fun that way for you. And I was wondering who is stopping you from doing that.

But apperanetly you unironically think starting with 6 fuel is overpowered, unbalanced and is too strong. 

/facepalm 

You can get 6 fuel in the first 2 minutes of the game. Rabbits live in a starting biome. 

Right, so why does it matter to you so much if it gets removed then, if it's such a minor change? You argued for 2 days and 6 pages of comments against the removal of something that will take you 2 minutes to get back? Do you just hate the idea of removing/changing something (no matter how small) so much that it clouds your mind with emotions and you can't help wasting your time?

[King Maxwell]

Honestly, I and probably everyone who plays maxwell don't really care if we start with 6 nightmare fuels or not but I personally find it more fun to have it so I can use maxwell's fun spells early on (I spend those 6 very fast fuel hahaha), they are not game change and these 6 fuels don't do much to be considered op but anyway as I said I don't really care if it's going to be removed or kept but the comparison with pre beta shadows is a little unfair, with 6 Nightmare Fuels I could cut and pull the stumps out of all the trees, mine all the rocks and I would still have 2 Nightmare fuels left, with the 6 current fuels I can't do that.

[ThymeSpirit]

22 minutes ago, King Maxwell said:

the comparison with pre beta shadows is a little unfair, with 6 Nightmare Fuels I could cut and pull the stumps out of all the trees, mine all the rocks and I would still have 2 Nightmare fuels left, with the 6 current fuels I can't do that.

Pre-beta Maxwell required that fuel to use his powers at all, while now he can already cast spells from the fully fueled codex. The additional fuel is not necessary, especially because it can be farmed quickly and easily now. The only reason some people oppose this change so much is because human brains exaggerate the negative impact of losing something. If the fuel was never there at the beginning or was removed in the first beta update, no one would ask for it to be added.

[King Maxwell]

36 minutes ago, ThymeSpirit said:

Pre-beta Maxwell required that fuel to use his powers at all, while now he can already cast spells from the fully fueled codex. The additional fuel is not necessary, especially because it can be farmed quickly and easily now. The only reason some people oppose this change so much is because human brains exaggerate the negative impact of losing something. If the fuel was never there at the beginning or was removed in the first beta update, no one would ask for it to be added.

I agree that it wouldn't be a big loss in the same way that it's not a big deal to keep, as I said particularly I prefer to keep it, because I have won this fuel I feel much freer to use it than the fuel I have to get (I call duelists to kill butterflies in the beginning even though I'm next to her and she stops just to see the dash atk. Hahahahaha)
But even though I needed the fuel before all I said is that it's not a fair comparison, I'm not arguing if you have to keep or remove it just that it's misleading to compare because 3 shadows (actually 5) is not less than 50 spells, when you look only the numbers 3 seems much lower than 50 but the shadows don't work the same way anymore and as I said with these 6 starting fuels I could knock down all the trees and mine all the stones in the world, with the 6 starting fuels no.
Again, I'm not trying to argue that you should keep or withdraw just by saying the comparison isn't fair.

[edulopes]

i wonder where are all those guys that asked for nerfs now supporting Some QQL updates 

just wondering

and even some QQL that would help everybody not just max but oh well

[astroapyr]

Diminishing Codex's percentage or the quantity of the fuel from spawn doesn't even count as a nerf since Maxwell skills remain the same, the only factor that is affected is the capacity of defeating some strong enemies as mini-bosses or bosses with the Codex from spawn, which not every character can do (and they don't really have to, that's ok, not every character has to be designed for battle) and even if some can they have to prepare themselves gathering good armor and good weapons and actually know how to fight the boss, this could be equivalent to Maxwell having to actually farm for fuel and unlock his spells.

Compare the actual Maxwell to Warly that in order to unlock his full fighting potential on early game he has to gather a lot of seeds, make a farm, plant the seeds, probably fail the first attempt to get the wished crops (pepper and garlic (garlic is optional)), plant seeds again, harvest the wished crops, make a birdcage, catch a bird, feed the crops to the bird, plant the crops seeds given by the bird, fertilize, water and attend the crops, harvest the crops, repeat the process to get more crops, attend those crops, find volt goats, get a volt goat horn, get honey, craft the portable grinding mill, craft the portable seasoning station, grind the pepper and the garlic, make volt goat chaud froid, season chaud froid and another recipe with spices and, oh no, chaud froid is mostly relevant if it's spring or enemies are wet!

I'm not complaining about Warly, all this progress is fun and is worth it since his recipes can buff himself and other allies and he isn't really a fight centered character, but there's just something wrong about comparing him to Maxwell who spawns with all his spells and a lot of fuel to do as he please. Am I in the wrong or this feels strange?

I 'm not sure if Maxwell should or should not start with all his spells but definetly having that much fuel from the beginning is weird, and again, even if his spells got locked behind some crafting station and he had to farm for fuel this doesn't count as a nerf, as long as, lets say, the damage, attack speed, HP, etc of his minions remain the same.

[Dr. Safety]

6 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Then where is constructive discussion? 

I keep asking people why can't they just remove fuel if it bothers them so much, but instead of explaining they give me bad logic analogies. 

You kill the constructive discussion by oversimplifying the arguments of people who you disagree with.

The argument people are making is that no other character (with semi complex mechanics) has what is essentially their entire kit right out of spawn. WX-78 needs to get circuits, Warly has to farm, Wendy has to make potions, Wicker has to make all her books, Wanda has to go to the ruins to get more time pieces, etc. The only progression Maxwell has is giving minor damage buffs to his duelists, and making the top hat. Everything else can be made (and spammed) before Maxwell even picks up his first twig. Removing his ability to spam powerful spells right out of spawn does not make Maxwell less powerful of a character, it makes him have to actually work to get to that point.

This isn't nerfing Maxwell "for the sake of nerfing Maxwell", it's making him consistent with the rest of the characters. Surely you can see where people are coming from.

[Gi-Go]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

The only progression Maxwell has is giving minor damage buffs to his duelists, and making the top hat. Everything else can be made (and spammed) before Maxwell even picks up his first twig. Removing his ability to spam powerful spells right out of spawn does not make Maxwell less powerful of a character, it makes him have to actually work to get to that point.

This isn't nerfing Maxwell "for the sake of nerfing Maxwell", it's making him consistent with the rest of the characters. Surely you can see where people are coming from.

Discussion isn't about whether or not Maxwell should have progression. Klei already answered to this question by implementing buff from gear. 120% extra damage is not small, so stop trivializing Maxwell's grind. It's a better progression than Wendy's potions, Wolfgang's dumbbells and wigfrids songs - all of them barely improve incredibly powerful characters available from the start. 

Discussion isn't about whether or not spells should be available from the start. They are and they'll stay that way. If you think it would be more fun to find spells in archive, atrium, ruins, or maybe from bosses or somewhere else - I don't mind. Maybe I'd like that even. But It's too late for that discussion. 

Discussion isn't even about whether or not should you unlock spells with crafting stations. I don't like this idea, crafting magic stations shouldn't be a top priority,  people should spend their early game however they want instead. But like the guy who suggested it said himself - it's too late for such changes. Not gonna happen either way. 

This discussion is purely about whether or not Maxwell should have fuel at the start. 

[ShadowDuelist]

The thing is that having nightmare fuel when you start was inherited from previous Maxwell versions, be it from DS or the first iteration in DST where you needed fuel to actually use your powers in first place. So having it was more like a free trial of your powers.

The current Maxwell does not need extra fuel besides his codex, as long as the codex is at 100% he has more than enough of a free trial. Removing the starting fuel would not be a nerf really, starting with 6 extra fuel is sort of an overkill.

If the point is to Instruct new players that they can refuel the codex to keep using it when it’s at 0% I stead of having to make a new book, they can do that with some new quote for Maxwell when it’s empty. 

[Gi-Go]

9 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Starting with 6 extra fuel is sort of an overkill.

Overkill? You need 19 to craft shadow set. I think 6 starting fuel is perfect number. 2 goes for magic hat and 4 to fully recharge codex. 

[00petar00]

14 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Discussion isn't about whether or not Maxwell should have progression. Klei already answered to this question by implementing buff from gear. 120% extra damage is not small, so stop trivializing Maxwell's grind. It's a better progression than Wendy's potions, Wolfgang's dumbbells and wigfrids songs - all of them barely improve incredibly powerful characters available from the start. 

I don't think you even understand what character progression means when all these characters you mentioned have a meaningful progression while Maxwell's is minimal.

14 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Discussion isn't about whether or not spells should be available from the start. They are and they'll stay that way. If you think it would be more fun to find spells in archive, atrium, ruins, or maybe from bosses or somewhere else - I don't mind. Maybe I'd like that even. But It's too late for that discussion. 

Discussion isn't even about whether or not should you unlock spells with crafting stations. I don't like this idea, crafting magic stations shouldn't be a top priority,  people should spend their early game however they want instead. But like the guy who suggested it said himself - it's too late for such changes. Not gonna happen either way. 

Why can't we discuss here if spells should be available at start or not? This ties into whether he should keep 6 nightmare fuel or not as there would be better arguments for it if he had to work to get access to his spells and it really isn't too late to lock some spells behind shadow manipulator or something else.

As you have said it is too late and if so many things are locked behind crafting stations, why should there be any difference now?

3 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Overkill? You need 19 to craft shadow set. I think 6 starting fuel is perfect number. 2 goes for magic hat and 4 to fully recharge codex. 

I don't really comprehend how you can still keep that stance for so long when literally majority of the people disagree with you.

If the first Maxwell beta release you started with no nightmare fuel, i would bet money you wouldn't mention it as he starts with codex at 100%.

You literally said yourself how getting nightmare fuel is easy and it wouldn't even be a problem so while majority is for its removal you are still here discussing about keeping it for whatever reason? If you don't have an issue with it and other people do, i'd assume you wouldn't be so persistent in this thread to keep it as it is.