[Game Update] - 530962

[LDee]

I don't think people understand just how good Maxwell is.

Even if you were to take away Shadow Prison entirely, he's still easily one of the best, if not THE best characters in the game.  His duelists are simply that good.

[Gi-Go]

9 minutes ago, JesseB_Klei said:

This will be out in the next update.

Are you guys seriously going to blacklist any item people ask for? You know, we could just not store junk we don't want to be moved in working area? It's not like shadows pick up items outside of zone chosen by player.

Anyways, they still grab cook book. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Gi-Go

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, V2C said:

Shadow Sneak can now cause Lavae, Woven Shadow, and Birchnutter to panic.

Gotta admit I really like this alot

 

[ZelosCharm]

12 minutes ago, TitanicTigrex said:

Why lower it in the first place?

They thought cage was too good and they were probably right.
I can see how broken cage can be especially in a multiplayer setting.

learning the cage duration and playing around that was really fun for me until now , that was what made the character interesting and satisfying.

Making the cage duration proximity based might be a better solution. It makes things consistent and still lowers its duration. 
This would also make the cage last longer if your shadows are dead. Which gives you time to resummon.
 

[Mysterious box]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why the shadow prison nerf? I imagine it was already pretty decently balanced for console players.. but after this change it sounds like it’ll be more dangerous to use.

to Elaborate I’m a WENDY Main & Wendy plays a bit differently on Xbox then she does on PC- Meaning that in order to recall Abigail back into her flower you need to be about within spear slapping distance to her, and then by that time.. Your right in the middle of the danger! On PC you can stand at a bit of a further away safer distance to recall, heal up and then resummon Abby.

Which makes me worried that in order to attack anything with the Shadow prison as Maxwell I will need to be closer to it then PC players would need to be, and with the lowered durability on it: Puts me in the same situation as Console Wendy: Your right in the heart of Danger and whatever your minion/wall was meant to protect you from- is now angry and within attacking distance to you.

I can’t play in the beta to test it for myself, I can only hope I’m wrong about this!  

The faster casting speed should be more helpful to console players but honestly I'm not really sure idk if pc controller setup is the same 1 to 1 console setup as consoles but I could test it later to see how it fuctions.

[JoeW]

Keep comments on topic and without personal attacks. If your point is based on another person and their specific ideas or how they specifically present their arguments, it's off-topic. 

Keep posts about the topic - if you don't like somebody or their posts, ignore it and move on. 

[Gi-Go]

8 minutes ago, LDee said:

I don't think people understand just how good Maxwell is.

Even if you were to take away Shadow Prison entirely, he's still easily one of the best, if not THE best characters in the game.  His duelists are simply that good.

The best character? His main perk is that he harvests grass faster and even that is up for a debate. 

[edulopes]

2 hours ago, V2C said:

• Shadow Servants no longer run away from shadow creatures that aren’t hostile to their summoner.
• Shadow Servants no longer run away from the Reanimated Skeleton if it is not in combat.
• Shadow creature targeting changes (multiplayer):
  • For your own shadow creatures, targeting and attacking works the same as usual.
  • When you are insane, targeting and attacking works the same as usual.
  • When you are below 50% sanity but not insane yet, the attack key will no longer auto-target other players’ shadow creatures.  However, you can still target and force attack them.
  • When you are above 50% sanity, you cannot target or force attack other players’ shadow creatures.
  • Please note that as a visual cue, your idle animation changes at 50% sanity.
• Reduced frequency of Maxwell’s shadowy equipment speech hints.

Great changes perfect, but the shadow creature one maybie can bring problems but only time can tell

 

2 hours ago, V2C said:

• Reduced frequency of Maxwell’s shadowy equipment speech hints.
• Maxwell can now cancel out of his spell casting animation slightly faster.
• Shadow Sneak can now cause Lavae, Woven Shadow, and Birchnutter to panic.

 

2 hours ago, V2C said:

• AoE attack hit boxes for Ancient Sentrypede, Eye of Terror, Retinazor, Spazmatism, and Celestial Champion have been updated to account for the size of their targets.
• Celestial Champion will now move away from shadow puppets as well in phase 3.
• Enlightening Snare pulses will now cause shadow puppets to temporarily phase out.

Good and just changes the casting faster for me is equal to wicker or too close to not notice, very good for me
 

2 hours ago, V2C said:

Shadow Prison breaks faster while you are attacking the target through it.

But this... this hurts maxwell only strong point, i think you should have more time locked down, or an revert to shadow duellists are in order, maybie more durable duellists as once they were( on their first buff)
or revert the changes to tier, making all magic itens equal in damage (equal to their second buff damage)

[JesseB_Klei]

15 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Are you guys seriously going to blacklist any item people ask for? You know, we could just not store junk we don't want to be moved in working area? It's not like shadows pick up items outside of zone chosen by player.

Anyways, they still grab cook book. 

The list applies for the other automatic pickup items such as the Lazy Forager and Polly Rogers. Each item suggested is considered on how undesirable it would be for a player to have the item go directly into their inventory by walking by it. The Cookbook is a good candidate of this because it is an item commonly put down intentionally next to the cooking area of a base and not something a typical player would want into their inventory after walking by it.

[LDee]

8 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

The best character? His main perk is that he harvests grass faster and even that is up for a debate. 

I'd say his main perk is that he can summon duelists that allow him to rival Wolfgang's DPS and have none of the weakenesses that balances out the other minion characters (Webber, Wendy, Wurt, pigmen or bunny users).

[HorseRadish]

3 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Are you guys seriously going to blacklist any item people ask for? You know, we could just not store junk we don't want to be moved in working area? It's not like duelists pick up items outside of zone chosen by player.

Anyways, they still grab cook book. 

Both of those items are only functional when placed on the ground.

In my beta world, i've been using a berry farm with a powdercake in the middle to bait gobblers. Its very coinvent to have a servant pick berries while Maxwell kills the gobblers, but some of that convivence is lost when the servant finishes picking berries and grabs the powdercake, causing any living gobblers to flee until you kill the servant and place the bait again.

Similarly, the archives puzzle room often spawns with several thulecite statues. If you summon servants to mine the statues while you work on the puzzle they will pick up the distilled knowledge when they're finished, interrupting the puzzle.

Both of these scenarios are avoidable but changing them makes playing Maxwell slightly nicer, and unless you needed to pick up mass amounts of powdercakes this change shouldnt have any negative impact on gameplay.

[edulopes]

i wont make any more ideias of changes to duellists specifically, because i know klei read the 3 diferent options( they always read everything i dont know how they are able but thanks) i already made posts, and topics around all of this, so in my eyes an nerf to the cage can be done, but if you remove the most powerful thing of an caracter you should give in another side
( or his shadow duellists should get better, like i have  serval ideas on how
or his servants should get better"personally i would not like" 
buffing more the cage in an between timer
an New spell
shadow snare is just perfect

look wolfgang, they removed his MoveSpeed, gave him consistent 2x time damge

[Instant-Noodles]

4 hours ago, V2C said:

Changes

• Shadow Prison breaks faster while you are attacking the target through it.

Here are the numbers for this change:

                        | Players (PVP) |  Bosses  | Other Mobs |
------------------------+---------------+----------+------------+
 Shadow Prison Duration |     6 sec     |  12 sec  |   24 sec   |

 Units Attacking Prisoned Target | Duration Removed Per Second |
---------------------------------+-----------------------------+
               0                 |           1.00 sec          |
               1                 |           1.50 sec          |
               2                 |           1.67 sec          |
               3                 |           1.83 sec          |
               4+                |           2.00 sec          |

* Note: A player and their followers only count as 1 unit attacking (so 1 Maxwell + His Duelists = 1 Unit Attacking)

If the number of units attacking a prisoned target is constant throughout a prison's duration, then you effectively get these durations:

  Units Attacking Prisoned Target |  Players  |  Bosses  | Other Mobs |   Percent   |
  (Assuming Constant Throughout)  |   (PVP)   |          |            | of Original |
----------------------------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+
 0 Units - Shadow Prison Duration |   6 sec   |  12 sec  |   24 sec   |    100%     |
 1 Unit - Shadow Prison Duration  |   4 sec   |   8 sec  |   16 sec   |    66.7%    |
 2 Units - Shadow Prison Duration |  3.6 sec  |  7.2 sec |  14.4 sec  |    60.0%    |
 3 Units - Shadow Prison Duration |  3.3 sec  |  6.5 sec |  13.1 sec  |    54.5%    |
 4+ Units - Shadow Prison Duration|   3 sec   |   6 sec  |   12 sec   |    50.0%    |

* Note: A player and their followers only count as 1 unit attacking (so 1 Maxwell + His Duelists = 1 Unit Attacking)

EDIT: Added clarification from @V2C:

38 minutes ago, V2C said:

I just want to make one clarification. One player + all their followers, counts as one Unit in the above data.

Thanks, missed that bit. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Instant-Noodles

[Joey9Baka]

2 hours ago, V2C said:

Changes

• Shadow Servants no longer run away from shadow creatures that aren’t hostile to their summoner.
• Shadow Servants no longer run away from the Reanimated Skeleton if it is not in combat.
• Shadow creature targeting changes (multiplayer):
  • For your own shadow creatures, targeting and attacking works the same as usual.
  • When you are insane, targeting and attacking works the same as usual.
  • When you are below 50% sanity but not insane yet, the attack key will no longer auto-target other players’ shadow creatures.  However, you can still target and force attack them.
  • When you are above 50% sanity, you cannot target or force attack other players’ shadow creatures.
  • Please note that as a visual cue, your idle animation changes at 50% sanity.
• Reduced frequency of Maxwell’s shadowy equipment speech hints.
• Maxwell can now cancel out of his spell casting animation slightly faster.
• Shadow Sneak can now cause Lavae, Woven Shadow, and Birchnutter to panic.
• Shadow Sneak will no longer be triggered by things that can’t panic.
• Shadow Prison breaks faster while you are attacking the target through it.
• AoE attack hit boxes for Ancient Sentrypede, Eye of Terror, Retinazor, Spazmatism, and Celestial Champion have been updated to account for the size of their targets.
• Celestial Champion will now move away from shadow puppets as well in phase 3.
• Enlightening Snare pulses will now cause shadow puppets to temporarily phase out.

Bug Fixes

• Dragonfly will move while attacking again.
• Fixed a bug causing Bee Queen’s targeting to fail if she gets stuck in phase 1.
• Fixed a bug causing Ancient Guardian’s leap attack to fail targeting sometimes.
• Shadow Servants will no longer pick things off of structures.
• Repairing inspection strings will no longer show for the Lazy Forager.
• Fixed a crash with the Stagehand.

 

View full update

 

My only complaint with this update is if we want cage to be purely for stun for solo maxwell can we get a change like duelists will ignore shadow prison targets or duelist attacks don't break it faster?

This update will have my duelists be counter productively releasing targets I want to stay stunned to buy time for more duelists

I'll need to test new book speed to see how it aligns with the new reduced stun if 1-2 straggler duelists keep fighting

[Seig Xeon]

Not a fan of the Shadow Prison having a variable duration. My feedback would be to make it a static time so we can plan around the timing with all the micro managing Maxwell has to do.

Also, amazing work so far Klei. I've seen you listen to feedback this entire rework, and am amazed with the willingness to make changes so frequently. No matter what we end up with, I am sure it will be great!

[edulopes]

@Instant-Noodlesincredible

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Instant-Noodles said:

Here are the numbers for this change:

                        | Players (PVP) |  Bosses  | Other Mobs |
------------------------+---------------+----------+------------+
 Shadow Prison Duration |     6 sec     |  12 sec  |   24 sec   |

 Units Attacking Prisoned Target | Duration Removed Per Second |
---------------------------------+-----------------------------+
               0                 |           1.00 sec          |
               1                 |           1.50 sec          |
               2                 |           1.67 sec          |
               3                 |           1.83 sec          |
               4+                |           2.00 sec          |

If the number of units attacking a pillared target is constant throughout a pillar's duration (unlikely to happen in an actual fight), then you effectively get these durations:

  Units Attacking Prisoned Target |  Players  |  Bosses  | Other Mobs |   Percent   |
  (Assuming Constant Throughout)  |   (PVP)   |          |            | of Original |
----------------------------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+
 0 Units - Shadow Prison Duration |   6 sec   |  12 sec  |   24 sec   |    100%     |
 1 Unit - Shadow Prison Duration  |   4 sec   |   8 sec  |   16 sec   |    66.7%    |
 2 Units - Shadow Prison Duration |  3.6 sec  |  7.2 sec |  14.4 sec  |    60.0%    |
 3 Units - Shadow Prison Duration |  3.3 sec  |  6.5 sec |  13.1 sec  |    54.5%    |
 4+ Units - Shadow Prison Duration|   3 sec   |   6 sec  |   12 sec   |    50.0%    |

 

edit: nvm, i miss understood the chart

Edited November 14, 2022 by ArubaroBeefalo

[LDee]

4 minutes ago, edulopes said:

i wont make any more ideias of changes to duellists specifically, because i know klei read the 3 diferent options( they always read everything i dont know how they are able but thanks) i already made posts, and topics around all of this, so in my eyes an nerf to the cage can be done, but if you remove the most powerful thing of an caracter you should give in another side
( or his shadow duellists should get better, like i have  serval ideas on how
or his servants should get better"personally i would not like" 
buffing more the cage in an between timer
an New spell
shadow snare is just perfect

look wolfgang, they removed his MoveSpeed, gave him consistent 2x time damge

You're comparing pre-rework Wolfgang to post-rework Wolfgang.

Every iteration of Maxwell in the beta is far superior than pre-rework Maxwell.  So no matter what, Maxwell is getting an enormous buff. The question is, how much?

[edulopes]

2 minutes ago, LDee said:

So no matter what, Maxwell is getting an enormous buff. The question is, how much?

gatherer maxwell pre rework was better than post rework

shadow duellists pre rework, didnt exist.

as i said shadow snare is perfect

even post rework wurt is better than him

shadow prision was His best point
they made serval necessary fixes to it, now an nerf was too much
because his shadow duellists should be a little better if not the prision
 

Edited November 14, 2022 by edulopes

[Taeli]

2 hours ago, V2C said:

• When you are below 50% sanity but not insane yet, the attack key will no longer auto-target other players’ shadow creatures.  However, you can still target and force attack them.
• When you are above 50% sanity, you cannot target or force attack other players’ shadow creatures.

Okay Willow and Bernie are happy now u_u

 Istill thinking about Max Shadows aggro Shadow creatures to protect, why u don't create a new shadow idk Shadow Protector (just 1) and this Shadow will only Aggro and Protect Max when he's casting and doing what's needed 

[Joey9Baka]

2 minutes ago, LDee said:

You're comparing pre-rework Wolfgang to post-rework Wolfgang.

Every iteration of Maxwell in the beta is far superior than pre-rework Maxwell.  So no matter what, Maxwell is getting an enormous buff. The question is, how much?

This rework by the end will probably still put him in top 4 dps I'd imagine

I do wonder if we're done with duelists though since we're moving onto spell adjustments

[LDee]

Just now, edulopes said:

gatherer maxwell pre rework was better than post rework

shadow duellists pre rework, didnt exist.

as i said shadow snare is perfect

even post rework wurt is better than him

shadow prision was is best point
 

It's very debatable if gatherer Maxwell pre-rework was better.

Shadow duelists did exist pre-rework, they are just 300 times better now which is an insane buff.

Shadow snare didn't exist pre-rework, a buff.

Shadow prison not existing post-rework isn't a nerf because he never had it before, it's either a buff or it doesn't exist.

[Gashzer]

Shadow prison still works to give time to recast shadow duelists but you can't spam it as easily as a clutch to depend on for combat... forcing you to join the fight with your shadow duelists instead getting the duelists to do everything. Fair enough balance. It was tedious spamming prison anyway so this nerf wont effect me much lol

Maxwell has alot going for him still as the best resource gatherer in the game. 

Loving the way people have to deal with their own shadow creatures an insanity. 

[edulopes]

2 minutes ago, Joey9Baka said:

top 4 dps I'd imagine

Wanda
wolf
warly
wig
wurt
maxwell

[Hornete]

15 minutes ago, JesseB_Klei said:

The list applies for the other automatic pickup items such as the Lazy Forager and Polly Rogers. Each item suggested is considered on how undesirable it would be for a player to have the item go directly into their inventory by walking by it. The Cookbook is a good candidate of this because it is an item commonly put down intentionally next to the cooking area of a base and not something a typical player would want into their inventory after walking by it.

Is there any reason why all recipe items are not automatically considered "undesirable pickups"? I notice it is only character recipe items that are automatically filtered and I question why. I can't see any other craftable item being desirable to have automatically picked up(And if there is a few cases I did not think of, exceptions can be made for those few recipe items).