[Game Update] - 530886

[SullyD]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

So you stood at point blank while casting, casted till you were intentionally insane, and used no cc abilities seems legit.

And this changes what? It doesn't change the fact that the aggro is on Maxwell, I'm not talking about CC, I'm not talking about anything else, just that the aggro goes to Maxwell, he is the only character that suffers from this. Wicker bees for example are focused first, why?

[LDee]

16 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Shadow prison is fine.

The only bosses it really breaks at this point are Eye of Terror, Twins of Terror, and Bee Queen, all of which can already be broken with enough pan flutes.

1. Spamming pan flutes is balanced by the intensity of resources required to renew them.  We're talking a trip to the ruins, living logs, green gems, reeds and nightmare fuel vs nightmare fuel.

2. It also breaks the Dragonfly fight since it removes his ability to chase after you if you dodge too early and it breaks the Celestial Champion fight in all phases, but especially in phase 3.

Couple that with the ability to spawn 6 Duelists who can't be stunlocked, can tank multiple hits from boss classes, are immune to fire, freeze, can walk on water, deal upwards of 40 each damage every 2 seconds and if they every die in a fight, can simply be resummoned at the cost of 1/5 of a nightmare fuel, you've got a completely unbalanced, broken character.

It's bad game design if a character can defeat all the toughest bosses in the game with minimal resources by simply standing on the sidelines and spamming 2 moves.

[Well-met]

excellent update

[Mysterious box]

16 minutes ago, SullyD said:

And this changes what? It doesn't change the fact that the aggro is on Maxwell, I'm not talking about CC, I'm not talking about anything else, just that the aggro goes to Maxwell, he is the only character that suffers from this. Wicker bees for example are focused first, why?

Because his cc directly combos with his followers while all being unrealistically cheap think about Wicker she requires a large amount of sanity and multiple books to keep bees going and the books need to recharge or risk breaking Maxwell on the other hand can summon 5 duelist at the cost of 1 nightmare fuel while having damage up to the level and exceeding merm guards indivially even Wendy can't keep resummoning Abigail at max hp and this is only considering the damage dealing parts of his perks i wouldn't even find it strange if people started requesting another downside.

[Arcwell]

47 minutes ago, SullyD said:

If you go to the caves you will get headshot easily from the bishops.

Not trying to argue anything here, just want to share this strat in case it helps.
(Aggro doesn't work 100% of the time, if you want to be extra safe you can stand outside of the bishop's range)

[SullyD]

9 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Not trying to argue anything here, just want to share this strat in case it helps.
(Aggro doesn't work 100% of the time, if you want to be extra safe you can stand outside of the bishop's range)

That's why I said "Aggro goes directly to you and not to your duelists at most times "

It's possible to see that it takes a while for the aggro to change target, in this case the structure of the map helped, in an open area it is more complicated. 

But that is exactly the point, the initial aggro will always be Maxwell and never the duelists.

[Cheggf]

8 minutes ago, SullyD said:

It's possible to see that it takes a while for the aggro to change target, in this case the structure of the map helped, in an open area it is more complicated. 

Aggro updates immediately and enemies literally do not even know those pillars exist.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Cheggf

[SullyD]

9 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Aggro updates immediately

No!

[Dr. Safety]

1 hour ago, SullyD said:

Maxwell has 75 HP(downside), but recovers sanity quickly(upside)

BUT, he needs to use all his maximum sanity in exchange for power (recovering sanity quickly has no effect here, so this removes the upside)

2 downsides, 1 upside.

Depending on the RNG, by using max sanity and not being able to recover with food, nightmares start chasing you, you can only raise sanity if your duelists die.

3 downsides, 1 upside

You need to use only the specific equipment (downside) so your duelists are not useless.

4 downsides, 1 upside

You need to engage in the fight and be close enough to give your duelists damage and attack speed (downside)

5 downsides, 1 upside

Aggro goes directly to you and not to your duelists at most times (downside)

6 downsides, 1 upside

I'll stop here, I'm bored.

I'm confused, are you saying that all the spells and puppets and cool stuff he can do with the codex doesn't count as an upside because it removes sanity? You present this information like his small +6.75 sanity gain is his only upside, when you and I both know he has a lot more going for him than that. Believe me, I want Maxwell to be powerful, but I feel like a lot of people ignore just how powerful he currently is. People complain that he has to wear certain gear, or that he gets aggro, or all of this stuff when he is still REALLY powerful and buffing that stuff just seems unnecessary to me.

For the certain gear, feel free to just use football helmets and hambats. Guess what, your duelists will still be providing a LOT of damage, and will still be hard to kill. The extra damage is just a bonus for pairing Maxwell with gear that he should be more powerful with than other survivors. This is his way of being more powerful with them. It makes his upsides stronger. He doesn't need to be outputting stupid amounts of damage without at least the slight "inconvenience" of needing to use items that, if we are being honest, a Maxwell should be using in the first place.

As far as the aggro goes, honestly it makes Maxwell unique. He is the first minion based character that slightly has to worry about kiting. He can't just sit back and let his minions do everything for him, at least without being ready for the enemy to randomly choose him as a target. Every enemy can be kited with the exception of a few, and Maxwell is no worse at kiting than any other survivor. I'm just happy we finally have a summoning character who is advised to learn to kite too, instead of just letting the minions do everything. I'm not even going to mention a beefalo because that shouldn't be taken into account for balancing, since any survivor can tame one and most benefit greatly from it.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Dr. Safety

[SullyD]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

I'm confused, are you saying that all the spells and puppets and cool stuff he can do with the codex doesn't count as an upside because it removes sanity? You present this information like his small +6.75 sanity gain is his only upside, when you and I both know he has a lot more going for him than that. Believe me, I want Maxwell to be powerful, but I feel like a lot of people ignore just how powerful he currently is. People complain that he has to wear certain gear, or that he gets aggro, or all of this stuff when he is still REALLY powerful and buffing that stuff just seems unnecessary to me.

For the certain gear, feel free to just use football helmets and hambats. Guess what, your duelists will still be providing a LOT of damage, and will still be hard to kill. The extra damage is just a bonus for pairing Maxwell with gear that he should be more powerful with than other survivors. This is his way of being more powerful with them. It makes his upsides stronger. He doesn't need to be outputting stupid amounts of damage without at least the slight "inconvenience" of needing to use items that, if we are being honest, a Maxwell should be using in the first place.

As far as the aggro goes, honestly it makes Maxwell unique. He is the first minion based character that slightly has to worry about kiting. He can't just sit back and let his minions do everything for him, at least without being ready for the enemy to randomly choose him as a target. Every enemy can be kited with the exception of a few, and Maxwell is no worse at kiting than anyone other survivor. I'm just happy we finally have a summoning character who is advised to learn to kite too, instead of just letting the minions do everything. I'm not even going to mention a beefalo because that shouldn't be taken into account for balancing, since any survivor can tame one and most benefit greatly from it.

The other main Maxwell had the same opinion as you and after playing for a few days he changed his mind, people are different, that's ok, when the rework comes out remember that, just because it is better than before doesn't mean it doesn't need improvement.

Klei is not going back on anything, but that is ok too, what I am quoting is just one point, Maxwell being the only summoner that is the main aggro target (at the beginning of the fight) is not upside for me, it is unfair. I am not saying he should not have aggro at all, but it should work the same as the others, because we have to engage in the fight anyway.

Another example, Wickerbottom can cancel the read animation at any time unlike Maxwell, you can test it and please don't say "but... but... but Maxwell summons fight minions, wicker not".

Edited November 11, 2022 by SullyD

[laboule]

Don't starve is the reason i installed chrome back when it was the only way to play it, i've been following it's devellopment and watching it turn into my favourite game of all time, it's almost been 10 years of starving, dying and slowly getting better at the game. I think the devs have been getting better and better at making their own game and this last beta has been my favourite method of implementing change, letting the community get involved and having an impact on our game. That said, I beg klei to be careful and not lose focus, we're a pretty vocal and argumentative community (that's what you get for making a hardcore game, ha!) and maybe not everything we say is worth considering. I feel like this rework has turned into a shadow duelist update, which is in no way bad, they always were the less attractice tool in maxwell's kit. But i don't know if they were what klei was thinking about when brainstorming the rework, I personnaly think their first iteration of the shadow duelist was good enough and i would've liked to maybe see some other spells integrated into his kit (it's really sad to think of the work that had to be done to create the new codex umbra UI for it to only have 4 spells in it) making maxwell a jack of all trade master of none would've been really fitting to his charachter. I understand it's klei's game before it's mine, even tho i paid for it and i "own" it, i think it's up to the artist to decide where the "spectator" goes and what they feel and it's up to us players to adapt (it's kinda the essence of the game too right?). I'm really glad the community was able to shine light on bugs and quality of life changes that needed to be made so quickly and that we basically had hotfix adressing them every day, really makes us feel like a part of the team and that's the biggest positive that came out of this update, it's a double edged sword tho.

anyways i love the new content, maxwell really fits the magician archetype now and is encouraged to play with magic items and ruins rushing which is amazing imo, turning him into a high-risk/high-reward character is the best move klei could've made and i'm thankful they did and any further changes pushing him in that direction will be appreciated. Thank you for the hard work dev-team you guys are amazing ♥♥♥
 

[whiteking]

Maybe this can be used as one of the basis for adjusting the puppet?It seems that not many people are satisfied with the puppet

[sunny91]

to the list of things shadow puppet should avoid to pick up, please add : Halloween trinkets, candies, the winter's feast specific mob drops. Specially the cake that characters can't eat, but pigs and others alike go for.

[Dr. Safety]

6 hours ago, SullyD said:

Maxwell being the only summoner that is the main aggro target (at the beginning of the fight) is not upside for me, it is unfair. I am not saying he should not have aggro at all, but it should work the same as the others, because we have to engage in the fight anyway.

Another example, Wickerbottom can cancel the read animation at any time unlike Maxwell, you can test it and please don't say "but... but... but Maxwell summons fight minions, wicker not".

I mean, I know that Maxwell being targeted is a downside compared to other minion based characters, but that's what balances it out. Duelists have the power and survivability of Wurt's minions with the cheap cost of Webber's minions. It's literally the best part of each, so it makes sense that there is a drawback (don't say the sanity thing. So long as you are using 5 at a time, you won't have to worry about nightmare creatures)

I honestly am okay with a way of action canceling, but it's not too important to me. I do mess up sometimes and cast a spell during a bad time and get punished for it, but as someone (I think @ShadowDuelist?) said, it just takes practice. I haven't mastered it yet but I definitely think I will in time. 

Like I said, I just think a lot of people overlook how powerful Maxwell is compared to the rest of the cast, and all of the amazing potential he has. 

[Gi-Go]

Rest in peace Dragonfly strategy. Now using cage on her is self inflicted agony. 

[YouKnowWho]

Just noticed that they updated the main menu screen. Nothing too major, though that rose is eerily lively

[Anthony_L3hr]

I just noticed that Snow Chester now has "cold" particle effects, when was this added?

[edulopes]

woodie weremoose charge can kill (and damage) duellists thank you for you hard work klei

Edited November 14, 2022 by edulopes

[whiteking]

Don't plan to make more changes to the battle puppet?Up to now, there are only about 30% of the votes that are satisfied with the current version.

[LeafyFly]

2 hours ago, whiteking said:

Don't plan to make more changes to the battle puppet?Up to now, there are only about 30% of the votes that are satisfied with the current version.

Yes. The equipment system is not good enough. The issue is why lunar equipments don't debuff Maxwell's duelists. So I propose adding some more tiers.

Tier -1 : Moon Glass Axe (-4)

Tier -2 : Glass Cutter (-8)

Tier -3 : Enlightened Crown (-12)

If Maxwell equip Glass Cutter and Enlightened Crown at the same time, his duelists' damage will reach incredible 0. Then he can make 6 duelists attack a bat in the daytime, and kill shadow creatures limitlessly by himself for getting nighmare fuel. 

[BB Marioni]

4 hours ago, whiteking said:

Don't plan to make more changes to the battle puppet?Up to now, there are only about 30% of the votes that are satisfied with the current version.

Not really. You make it seem like you only gave 2 options (I'm assuming you are talking bout the poll you posted), and that one option won the majority over the other, where in fact you gave 4 options and majority of the vote went to the "satisfied" one. You can't just combine option 1-3 to compare vs option 4 as all 3 options were different suggestions. As a developer for example, if they were to pick what "most" players want, if I were to pick option 1 for example, all the players who picked options 2-4 would be disappointed. Unless there is one unified agreed suggestion that majority of the players want, I would say that most players would be considered satisfied with the current state, just that each player has their own preference of additional tweaks.

 

Also another thread exists where a huge majority voted they are satisfied, and reading through the comments, most players who voted "no" only wanted 1/2 things to be tweaked

[-Variant]

On 11/12/2022 at 7:51 PM, Anthony_L3hr said:

I just noticed that Snow Chester now has "cold" particle effects, when was this added?

It's part of the Maxwell rework.
It's to accompany the FX Shadow Chester got.