[Game Update] - 530684

[LeafyFly]

5 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Guys, the giving thurible a powerful effect is not means you "need" use it, you "can" use it.

They don't really care about "equipment limitations". They just want an OP character.

[Cheggf]

5 hours ago, V2C said:

Magician’s Top Hat will no longer be interrupted when dropping items directly from inventory or containers

Is it possible for crafting using ingredients inside the hat to be allowed?

[BB Marioni]

I'm glad they focused on QOL updates now instead of changing the duelist mechanics over and over again. I feel like the spells and puppets are in a good spot now, in case any changes are needed it should probably just be a few minor tweaks. 

some bonus suggestions that are not really important but could be nice I think would be changing Maxwell's favorite dish. Wobster dinner is waaaayy to rare to cook. Maybe he can have a new dish using nightmare kinda like grim galette. I'm thinking of him having the power to summon shadow hands, but not sure what would be a good purpose for those, just think it would look cool XD

[MadMatt]

2 hours ago, Dragonboooorn said:

Im still sad Klei didnt even bothered to give him a proper short with lore.

Still, I wont call him bad though. Yes, he sure is worse then Maxwell in farming but hes fun. I had a good time playing him last month, I was suprised Klei removed spoil time on idols.

Forgot to Add: Woodie can rush moon island in goose form and farm horde of mobes with ease in moose form. 

I always hated Frog rain, cuz how annoying it is, but for Woodie － its dinner time. Frog legs for days!

Rushing the Lunar Island with Goose is what I always do, but it's really not that good and more so force of habit. Any character can easily and quickly find Lunar Island with the horseshoe so the only thing Goose saves you is the time spent gathering 8 boards and 1 log, and maybe a bit of commute time to the island. Moon Quay is probably a better, if not the only example really of Goose's water walking really coming into use.

He's fun but he really is bad. Maxwell's perks are all stronger than his and aren't mutually exclusive with the equipment and items you gather over a play session. As Woodie the more you do, the worse your forms become on top of just not being all too swell to begin with. Just about the only thing you have that can't easily be matched is the Moose charge, which don't get me wrong is SUPER nice, but has limited use outside of very specific encounters.

But the change to the shadow servants atleast makes it so that Woodie and Maxwell play nicer with each other. The servants being able to pick up items as well as chop means that the Beaver gnawing through a whole forest won't make Maxwell's choppers useless, since Maxwell essentially can summon 6 Polly Rogers  

[loopuleasa]

I am convinced Klei devs are maxwell mains

[King Maxwell]

Firstly I would like to congratulate klei, they are trying to do a good rework and it seems to me that they are putting effort and affection into it but with each update I feel more frustrated I don't like the path it has been following, I will give a general opinion on the whole rework from maxwell to date.

- Magician's Top Hat, Magician's Box, and Shadow Chester are all connected to one shadow dimensional storage
I think it would be nice if each maxwell had his own space instead of sharing it with other maxwelll, this would give maxwell the option to use his storage selfishly or share it with other survivors, there are worlds he would like to share and worlds he I would like to keep it just for myself, the connection with shadow chester should also be optional.
Sharing between fragments if possible would also be good.

 

- Shadow Servant

Overall I'm satisfied with them, I believe there may just be some quality of life changes that many people are already suggesting.
If the maxwells have separate dimensional storage it would be good if they harvest directly into the dimensional storage.

 

- Shadow Sneak
At first I criticized this spell a lot, after some comments from people talking about it I changed my opinion, it may not be a great spell and I won't use it very often but it's still useful, especially for beginners who can't fight well with nightmares giving them a way to recharge the book and generally satisfied with it.

 

- Shadow Pillars
There's not much to say, it's great.

 

- Maxwell can now cancel out of his spell casting animation slightly faster.
Finally!! But it's still long and clunky, need to be able to cancel before, when it summons too many shadows the current reading cancels the animation of the previous one, that's a good point to cancel the animation.

 

- Shadow Duelists

The big elephant in the room and the reason that each patch makes me more disappointed and frustrated, I think the path that klei decided to follow is terrible and I will explain why.

• Equipment limitation: It's a good way to make duelists super powerful but it also kills versatility and decreases the power of choice of how to play the game, this is one of the worst things ever done, it's unnecessarily complex and limiting.
• Aggro redirected to maxwell: I was already in favor of this mechanic, it seemed like the right thing to do but after playing for more time I changed my mind, in general it is frustrating and doesn't solve the main problem that it should solve which is to avoid afk gameplay.
• Damage reduction: The damage reduction caused the whole afk gameplay problem.

Now my suggestions for duelists, if you agree with them please comment something saying that you agree, I want klei to see different options from the only one she has followed and it seems that the important thing is to have many comments agreeing.

Previously I made a post trying to please everyone, now I will just say what I think is best

• Remove damage reduction
• Bring back the duelists cure
• Remove the equipment limitation
• Revert duelists' atk to 40 and atk speed to default
• Aggro will no longer reset to maxwell
• When duelists hit an enemy he is marked for x seconds, marked enemies take 20% + damage from shadow weapons equipped by maxwell

Because I think this is the way to go, it makes the experience of playing with maxwell more versatile but less powerful, it allows a style of play going to fight directly or staying away as a caster, I particularly see no problem in allowing the maxwell stays from afar out of contact with the fight, there are other ways to do this like winona catapults and gunpowder  but this option should come with a higher resource cost like the options mentioned above and the removal of damage reduction allows this already the increase 20% damage prevents the only gameplay from summoning from afar because even if AOE bosses quickly kill your duelists you will still have a bonus that rewards you for actively participating in the battle so this change gives you options and this is the way that I think klei should follow, give you options and not limit to deliver power.
Whenever I talk about removing damage reduction from duelists people say that their dying in 1 hit for bosses would be a problem but I'll explain why it would be the solution and not the problem.
Currently duelists start with a dash atk that would always hit the boss guaranteed damage and maybe +1 normal atk depending on the boss's atk speed so you would need to summon more duelists per combat if you want to use only them increasing the cost of fighting in security and if you participate in combat the dash atk guarantees the damage bonus so the duelists will never be wasted.

If you agree with my suggestions and also think it's a better way to go than the current one comments on, let's make klei notice these suggestions.

 

[Arcwell]

Commenting because you asked for feedback:

1 minute ago, King Maxwell said:

• Remove damage reduction
• Bring back the duelists cure
• Remove the equipment limitation
• Revert duelists' atk to 40 and atk speed to default
• Aggro will no longer reset to maxwell
• When duelists hit an enemy he is marked for x seconds, marked enemies take 20% + damage from shadow weapons equipped by maxwell

• Don't like. Would make duelists worse against bosses and I think it's cool that we have a minion character that's good vs. AoE for once.
• (Assuming this means HP regen) Don't like because of last point.
• This would be fine if they added an alternative progression system (i.e. upgrading codex). Having max potential duelists out of spawn was silly imo.
• Don't like because of last point.
• No opinion.
• Sounds neat.

[Thalz]

7 hours ago, V2C said:

• The attack key will no longer auto-target shadow creatures that aren’t attacking you while wearing the Bone Helm.

YES! That is QOL. Thank you 

[King Maxwell]

2 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Commenting because you asked for feedback:

Thanks for the comment.
 

 

3 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Don't like. Would make duelists worse against bosses and I think it's cool that we have a minion character that's good vs. AoE for once.

Yes they would die but they could also be remade right away so minions would still be good against bosses, resisting 2 hits would still be good for me but I prefer not to because the cost is still too low to fight without getting involved, resisting 1 hit each shadow would do 60 to 100 damage against AOE and more against non-AOE before dying which seems like a good amount for the cost allowing for caster gameplay without being overpowered. Would resisting 2 hits be good for you?

9 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

(Assuming this means HP regen) Don't like because of last point.

How would bringing healing again be worse against bosses?

10 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

This would be fine if they added an alternative progression system (i.e. upgrading codex). Having max potential duelists out of spawn was silly imo.

I don't see a progression problem with updating the codex, in fact I think it's even better than reverting to 40 damage, I just hadn't thought about it. Hahaha

 

[BB Marioni]

30 minutes ago, King Maxwell said:

Firstly I would like to congratulate klei, they are trying to do a good rework and it seems to me that they are putting effort and affection into it but with each update I feel more frustrated I don't like the path it has been following, I will give a general opinion on the whole rework from maxwell to date.

- Magician's Top Hat, Magician's Box, and Shadow Chester are all connected to one shadow dimensional storage
I think it would be nice if each maxwell had his own space instead of sharing it with other maxwelll, this would give maxwell the option to use his storage selfishly or share it with other survivors, there are worlds he would like to share and worlds he I would like to keep it just for myself, the connection with shadow chester should also be optional.
Sharing between fragments if possible would also be good.

 

- Shadow Servant

Overall I'm satisfied with them, I believe there may just be some quality of life changes that many people are already suggesting.
If the maxwells have separate dimensional storage it would be good if they harvest directly into the dimensional storage.

 

- Shadow Sneak
At first I criticized this spell a lot, after some comments from people talking about it I changed my opinion, it may not be a great spell and I won't use it very often but it's still useful, especially for beginners who can't fight well with nightmares giving them a way to recharge the book and generally satisfied with it.

 

- Shadow Pillars
There's not much to say, it's great.

 

- Maxwell can now cancel out of his spell casting animation slightly faster.
Finally!! But it's still long and clunky, need to be able to cancel before, when it summons too many shadows the current reading cancels the animation of the previous one, that's a good point to cancel the animation.

 

- Shadow Duelists

The big elephant in the room and the reason that each patch makes me more disappointed and frustrated, I think the path that klei decided to follow is terrible and I will explain why.

• Equipment limitation: It's a good way to make duelists super powerful but it also kills versatility and decreases the power of choice of how to play the game, this is one of the worst things ever done, it's unnecessarily complex and limiting.
• Aggro redirected to maxwell: I was already in favor of this mechanic, it seemed like the right thing to do but after playing for more time I changed my mind, in general it is frustrating and doesn't solve the main problem that it should solve which is to avoid afk gameplay.
• Damage reduction: The damage reduction caused the whole afk gameplay problem.

Now my suggestions for duelists, if you agree with them please comment something saying that you agree, I want klei to see different options from the only one she has followed and it seems that the important thing is to have many comments agreeing.

Previously I made a post trying to please everyone, now I will just say what I think is best

• Remove damage reduction
• Bring back the duelists cure
• Remove the equipment limitation
• Revert duelists' atk to 40 and atk speed to default
• Aggro will no longer reset to maxwell
• When duelists hit an enemy he is marked for x seconds, marked enemies take 20% + damage from shadow weapons equipped by maxwell

Because I think this is the way to go, it makes the experience of playing with maxwell more versatile but less powerful, it allows a style of play going to fight directly or staying away as a caster, I particularly see no problem in allowing the maxwell stays from afar out of contact with the fight, there are other ways to do this like winona catapults and gunpowder  but this option should come with a higher resource cost like the options mentioned above and the removal of damage reduction allows this already the increase 20% damage prevents the only gameplay from summoning from afar because even if AOE bosses quickly kill your duelists you will still have a bonus that rewards you for actively participating in the battle so this change gives you options and this is the way that I think klei should follow, give you options and not limit to deliver power.
Whenever I talk about removing damage reduction from duelists people say that their dying in 1 hit for bosses would be a problem but I'll explain why it would be the solution and not the problem.
Currently duelists start with a dash atk that would always hit the boss guaranteed damage and maybe +1 normal atk depending on the boss's atk speed so you would need to summon more duelists per combat if you want to use only them increasing the cost of fighting in security and if you participate in combat the dash atk guarantees the damage bonus so the duelists will never be wasted.

If you agree with my suggestions and also think it's a better way to go than the current one comments on, let's make klei notice these suggestions.

 

I'm OK for most of these suggestions except for the dmg reduction and the +20% dmg.

I feel like the dmg reduction is the only reason why Maxwell can finally engage in combat now without being a Wilson with low HP. Removing that seems like it would just revert the duelists to what they currently are, which would just die in 1 hit without ever doing any dmg, despite them having better kiting now. I watched a live stream from JAzzygames last night and the duelists were getting shredded by fuelweaver within seconds despite them already having dmg reduction, so I think their current tankyness is just at the right spot.

The 20% bonus dmg i think is unnecessary as there is enough overall DPS with the duelists. I am not a fan of forcing Maxwell into combat. It is good enough that he my or may not add dps depending if you choose to fight or stay behind. I don't get why some people think that the only way you are a "good fighter" is if you melee enemies with "F". The game offers a wide variety of combat options and hitting enemies with melee is just one of them, and should be more reserved for characters that actually have the kit to attack enemies face to face like wolfgang/ wigfrid. Maxwell was made to be a frail character to avoid direct combat and instead be a master of servants. And if people's logic is that "learn to kite" then why wont all characters just have 1hp if the hp is not important and let everyone just be hambat smashers with all equal damage modifiers.

Edited November 10, 2022 by BB Marioni

[Arcwell]

1 minute ago, King Maxwell said:

Yes they would die but they could also be remade right away so minions would still be good against bosses, resisting 2 hits would still be good for me but I prefer not to because the cost is still too low to fight without getting involved, resisting 1 hit each shadow would do 60 to 100 damage against AOE and more against non-AOE before dying which seems like a good amount for the cost allowing for caster gameplay without being overpowered. Would resisting 2 hits be good for you?

Let's think about 2 scenarios with your proposed changes:
Note that players can attack about twice per second and it takes about 6 seconds to summon 6 duelists.

Scenario 1: You spend 6 seconds summoning duelists who get 1 lunge and 1 normal attack in before dying, dealing 60 * 6 + 40 * 6 = 600 damage.

Scenario 2: You have a dark sword. You spend 6 seconds attacking, dealing 68 * 12 = 816 damage.

I just don't see how that would be useful against bosses.

4 minutes ago, King Maxwell said:

How would bringing healing again be worse against bosses?

It wouldn't be, what I mean is I don't like the idea of HP regen when damage reduction exists. I'm sure there's a way to balance it where it would be fine, but reverting to 15 HP every 2 seconds and keeping damage reduction would make them nearly immortal.

[King Maxwell]

 

4 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

I'm OK for most of these suggestions except for the dmg reduction and the +20% dmg.

I feel like the dmg reduction is the only reason why Maxwell can finally engage in combat now without being a Wilson with low HP. Removing that seems like it would just revert the duelists to what they currently are, which would just die in 1 hit without ever doing any dmg, despite them having better kiting now. I watched a live stream from JAzzygames last night and the duelists were getting shredded by fuelweaver within seconds despite them already having dmg reduction, so I think their current tankyness is just at the right spot.

The 20% bonus dmg i think is unnecessary as there is enough overall DPS with the duelists. I am not a fan of forcing Maxwell into combat. It is good enough that he my or may not add dps depending if you choose to fight or stay behind. I don't get why some people think that the only way you are a "good fighter" is if you melee enemies with "F". The game offers a wide variety of combat options and hitting enemies with melee is just one of them, and should be more reserved for characters that actually have the kit to attack enemies face to face like wolfgang/ wigfrid.

 

Thanks for the comment.
With all the changes that duelists have had, they will always do 60 damage at least (considering the atk of 40) because of the dash atk so dying without doing damage is no longer a thing, I believe removing damage reduction would be positive and if it becomes insufficient to gradually add resistance to tests thus reaching a point of equilibrium.
About the 20% increase, I agree that pressing f shouldn't be the only combat option, so maxwell would still have the option to use his ranged duelists which I think is a very interesting mechanic but fighting from a safe position must have its cost and I believe that a reward for those who help in the fight is fair, otherwise there will just not be a reason to help in the fight against AOE bosses, of course, this considering the less tanky duelists because tank duelists have always tended to have a more afk gameplay.
I don't want to make either of the 2 mechanics (help in the fight or caster) dominated so the idea is to find a balance point where it has advantages and disadvantages to choose one over the other and not just one being superior to the other.
The way the current reduction works they should resist at least 5 hits from the fuelweaver which seems like a lot to me.

 

12 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Let's think about 2 scenarios with your proposed changes:
Note that players can attack about twice per second and it takes about 6 seconds to summon 6 duelists.

Scenario 1: You spend 6 seconds summoning duelists who get 1 lunge and 1 normal attack in before dying, dealing 60 * 6 + 40 * 6 = 600 damage.

Scenario 2: You have a dark sword. You spend 6 seconds attacking, dealing 68 * 12 = 816 damage.

I just don't see how that would be useful against bosses.

You would be in a safe position and that's where I'm basing utility, you could choose to fight safe for higher cost and a slower boss kill or join the fight for lower cost and a faster kill giving versatility and choice instead of power including why duelists would give a damage bonus when hitting thus compensating the summon time if you actively participate in the fight

But I could be wrong too, so I believe that removing the damage resistance and gradually increasing it if it becomes insufficient is a good idea, so we can test how it would look without the damage resistance after all the changes (which the duelist is already very different from the version when he didn't have damage resistance) and if it becomes insufficient, I could add little by little to test until finding a balance point seems to me more productive than just imagining scenarios.

19 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

It wouldn't be, what I mean is I don't like the idea of HP regen when damage reduction exists. I'm sure there's a way to balance it where it would be fine, but reverting to 15 HP every 2 seconds and keeping damage reduction would make them nearly immortal.

Ok, with that I agree in parts, it can really become immortal if it's done poorly but calculating the regeneration is still possible, as first I suggest you remove the damage reduction I don't see this problem but adding some damage reduction can get a little over really.

[edulopes]

6 hours ago, xhyom said:

I don't really like this idea of having to equip specific items every time I fight, but calm down, that's overkill. The rework turned Maxwell from a monotonous character that was only good for one thing into a super interactive character with very fun mechanics, he may not be surpassing Wolfgang in DPS but he's not far below either, and that's no reason to say the rework was bad.

I am not asking for him surpsssing his damage, but think, 

Why making sonething clunky to use If you can copy another effect that IS the same and Very satifying to use, 

but i think that 60 damage Maxwell was the prefec spot

But as i told If the fear os making an Maxwell such an Power house make his feel better to use, or make the duelists not be needed tô spammed so much, If want to spam, at least make an better Codex usage for duelists exclusive for not buffing Shadow prision 

fix the BLUE screen AI for Dragonfly

and fix servants 

But lets wait there is still serval days for this rework

[Wonz]

8 hours ago, V2C said:

Nightmare Fuel will no longer get wet.

What does it change?

[edulopes]

6 minutes ago, Wonz said:

What does it change?

If It got wet It would refuel less Codex umbra percentage

8 minutes ago, edulopes said:

I am not asking for him surpsssing his damage, but think, 

Why making sonething clunky to use If you can copy another effect that IS the same and Very satifying to use, 

but i think that 60 damage Maxwell was the prefec spot

But as i told If the fear os making an Maxwell such an Power house make his feel better to use, or make the duelists not be needed tô spammed so much, If want to spam, at least make an better Codex usage for duelists exclusive for not buffing Shadow prision 

fix the BLUE screen AI for Dragonfly

and fix servants 

But lets wait there is still serval days for this rework

ALL the buffs i am telling is to use less Codex umbra and more gameplay

revert damage faster figths,

more durabilty shadows, less usage,

less cast times you dont get struck for ages 

The rest are must have fixes like the Df one

Edited November 10, 2022 by edulopes

[POOH_LY]

The updates keep getting better and better! Thanks Klei! I really love the changes so far. But as a lone player, I will miss having my shadow friends following me around for sure. 

[PunkShark]

Loving the changes so far all around. The rework is looking better and better for everyday passing by, a much more interesting gameplay style than any other to sought through the shadow magic and becoming stronger. And the quotes definitely help with that idea.

The only thing i would suggest is perhaps update the perk description of Maxwell. Something to help with the idea that he's using shadow based tools and armor to make his puppets stronger. "*Shadow magic makes his army stronger".. Especially when it's become a big part of his playstyle it should be known when you click on him when picking him as a character imo.  

Spoiler

Also add Ragtime when insane as Maxwell k bye.

 

[Cheggf]

15 minutes ago, POOH_LY said:

The updates keep getting better and better! Thanks Klei! I really love the changes so far. But as a lone player, I will miss having my shadow friends following me around for sure. 

On the bright side the shadows will now copy more emotes. They used to only dance with you but now they'll join in with most things.

[Wenhelxing]

I'll say it again: Make the Bone Helm Refuelable. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Wenhelxing said:

I'll say it again: Make the Bone Helm Refuelable. 

i remember when i was starting to clean the ruins and doing my first messy attempts to kill FW. I was afraid of wasting thulecite gear or wasting my lazy explorers, they were a very appreciated things that i keep for special occasions.

Time passed and i become better and more experienced at the game making me using thulecite gear 90% time to the point of not having unlocked the football helmet recipe unlocked in some worlds or telepuffing whenever i want using lazy explorer.

That player progression made the game super fun for me, i wouldnt have that much fun, played that much hours or felt that satisfaction if lazy explorer were refuelable giving me full power with no real experience.

If someone wants to unlock full power needs to work for it. There are plenty of cheaper and easy to access alternatives for players that didnt reach the point of keeping the flow of getting an almost 1000 durability helmet often enough to use them on demand

[SullyD]

2 hours ago, King Maxwell said:

Aggro redirected to maxwell: I was already in favor of this mechanic, it seemed like the right thing to do but after playing for more time I changed my mind

Oh... now you can see the problem, can't you? Now you can feel the pain.

 

2 hours ago, King Maxwell said:

• Equipment limitation: It's a good way to make duelists super powerful but it also kills versatility and decreases the power of choice of how to play the game, this is one of the worst things ever done, it's unnecessarily complex and limiting.
• Aggro redirected to maxwell: I was already in favor of this mechanic, it seemed like the right thing to do but after playing for more time I changed my mind, in general it is frustrating and doesn't solve the main problem that it should solve which is to avoid afk gameplay.
• Damage reduction: The damage reduction caused the whole afk gameplay problem.

I'm sure Klei read this several times and still kept the idea.
I've lost hope...
I'm already tired of praying to the RNG God not to spawn 2 Terrorbeak at the same time in this beta, it's the most frustrating thing.

[BB Marioni]

Oh, has anyone tried having the reanimated skeleton for combat in the caves while Maxwell is wearing full bone gear?

[GreenBowers]

2 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

Oh, has anyone tried having the reanimated skeleton for combat in the caves while Maxwell is wearing full bone gear?

I mentioned something about this in another thread, but it seems like a logical next step to make use of the boney boy if youre already using the shadow equipment on minions.

[whiteking]

11 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

Oh, has anyone tried having the reanimated skeleton for combat in the caves while Maxwell is wearing full bone gear?

oh……poor boss

[Gabovisk]

1 hour ago, POOH_LY said:

I will miss having my shadow friends following me around for sure.

I wish shadow thurible would increase this range or make it unlimited.