Maxwell Refresh Beta Open!

[X-lem]

Played for a bit and have a few thoughts much like the others.

Personally I've never liked Maxwell as a gathering character. Imo it never fit him as a character. He was once king of the world and is now relegated to chopping trees and rocks? To me the abilities Wanda has are much more in line with what Maxwell originally should have been. But it seems now in a way Klei has pushed themselves into this corner of Maxwell being a gatherer with the side ability to spawn a few week fighters. Personally I was hoping Klei would totally change his character, but maybe that's a bit much.

 

1. Like many others the fact that the characters you spawn no longer follow you confuses me and makes me wonder what the thought behind that was. No other character with a helper is like this. Webber, Wendy, Willow. All of their helpers follow indefinitely. This with the fact that the Codex has durability seems like an odd choice. I've always found Maxwell abilities rather useless late game and this is only exasperated now. As others have said I'd let them follow you, but dissapear after a few minutes (or you choose to release them).
2. The cage is really cool idea. No further thoughts here.
3. The sneak ability confuses me. I'm not really sure what it's intended for. It doesn't do damage. Just startles enemies? When would that be useful (honest question)? I'm not actually sure when I would ever use it.
4. The dimension pocket (top hat, chest, & shadow Chester) is a really cool idea in theory, but I'm not sure how often I would use it. The moment another Maxwell (or Shadow Chester) joined the game I probably wouldn't use it much. I understand the point of it is to quickly share items with others across the world, but I'm not sure how often I'd even use this? Maybe for transporting stuff in the ocean/islands back to main base?. Maybe I'd end up find myself using it more? A lot of others seem really excited about it so I'm glad for that.

Hotfix changes

• I like that Maxwell now resists sanity drain from dark sword and night armor. tbh I think I would have rather seen them with greater durability/damage when used by Maxwell as sanity isn't really a problem for him.

 

Imo the shadow duelists still need much better AI. It doesn't seem to have been improved at all which is disappointing. During my short play-through I experienced a few times were they wouldn't recognize enemies (ran past a spider once, sometimes would attack the pigs sometimes wouldn't).

[BoneSeeds]

3 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

I dunno why everyone wants servants following maxwell around. Them sticking to a radius to chop/mine AND pick up the loot is a huge buff imo. I always hated that servants would stop doing whatever they are in the middle of doing to follow me just because I’m picking up after their mess. I also hated that, because they were so tethered to Maxwell, it was redundant to have more than 2 of them, since they always ended up going for the same rocks and trees.  
  
Haven’t tested it yet, but if they could last long enough to fully clear an area AND move their storage to maxwell’s shared storage system, I would probably put him back in my top 3.

I completely agree with this. I've loved playing Maxwell for years, ever since single-player, and I don't understand why people want to the shadow servants to follow them. It was one of the things that was so annoying about the DST version of Maxwell in the first place, the fact that you didn't really have control of your puppets. With this rework, I can now place down a servant, move along and know that the servant will complete tasks in that area while I'm doing something elsewhere. When I come back, all the items they collect are placed in a stack after they have died, making it easy to collect what my servants have harvested. There's no worrying about chopping down trees I meant to have for decoration or mining sinkholes that were meant to stay closed or inadvertently destroying statues that would have been cool to build a base around. 

Perhaps people don't realize the potential of just placing down a servant and leaving it be to do work for you, but to me, this feels not only extremely fun but fits the theme of Maxwell perfectly. He relies on the servants to do his work for him while he conducts other "important" business. All he has to do is pop back when things are finished and he receives the loot.

Personally, I think Klei have done an amazing job of delivering on the fantasy that Maxwell was meant to have and with only a few minor tweaks and bug-fixes before full release, I think he would be perfect. The only that feels out of place to me is the Shadow Sneak. I think Shadow Pillars fulfill the role that the Shadow Sneak was meant to have. (Perhaps instead, the spell could be replace with a Shadow Light that functions similar to a nightmare light?)

Anyways, keep up the great work Klei!

[Zima Blue]

Don't want to be rude but the Codex Umbra UI isn't really looking that great.

[Thrul]

So he's completely useless if you aren't playing in multiplayer or endgame.

[Daniel14676]

The worker picks up a lit lantern (testing ruins exploring). I mean if I was better I would just place the lantern outside the worker zone, so idk. Anyways I was mining a statue and needed to fight a nightmare creature.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Daniel14676

[Joey9Baka]

Personally I think the team needs to decide if duelists are supposed to be spammed minions or strong actually supposed to survive for their whole duration minions.

As is they have the stats of cheap spam minions but cost a lot for what they can usually do

Either they should make it so we spawn more per cast for cheaper sanity and durability/let us spam even more minions out, and turn off them playing defensive at all

or make the minion cap lower and make them have damage resist/higher damage/improved ai/a cooldown based shadow dodge and possibly a way to command them

Edited November 4, 2022 by Joey9Baka

[Thrul]

I want them to just disappear on hit then come back just like the shadow creatures

[SapoLover]

Yep, the Shadow cage is the best thing Maxwell got (jump to 1:05)

Edit: Just saw JustExo uploaded it 8 hours ago, so whatever

Edited November 4, 2022 by DeadWhereX

[Jestymun]

1 hour ago, Joey9Baka said:

Personally I think the team needs to decide if duelists are supposed to be spammed minions or strong actually supposed to survive for their whole duration minions.

As is they have the stats of cheap spam minions but cost a lot for what they can usually do

Either they should make it so we spawn more per cast for cheaper sanity and durability/let us spam even more minions out, and turn off them playing defensive at all

or make the minion cap lower and make them have damage resist/higher damage/improved ai/a cooldown based shadow dodge and possibly a way to command them

The duelists are pretty spammable as is. They only seem to reduce max sanity, they don't drain the sanity you have. So when one dies you can immediatly replace it for just 1/5th of a nightmare fuel. That's about as cheap as seems reasonable to me. They aren't going to be good for bosses, and the only companions that really are decent for bosses are wurt's loyal merms and I guess webber's spiders situationally. They can help out with smaller stuff like hound waves or hunts

[Cheggf]

Disagree with everyone saying Maxwell's storage shouldn't be linked to Shadow Chester due to fear of stealing. In my experience Chester is almost never upgraded and when he is it's usually the food preserving, summer nullifying, hambat enhancing, critter extending snow Chester instead of shadow Chester. If you're so worried about thieves either take Chester for yourself or upgrade him to snow. Most wouldn't get rid of an upgrade to replace it with a different one.

The ability for Maxwell to teleport items between himself and a teammate is incredibly powerful. Shouldn't go away just because theoretically if someone is super dedicated to stealing they could take from you.

[Thrul]

Why shouldn't we use a feature so that a selfish Maxwell can use it instead of us

[Escrowm]

I have some QoL ideas for this update but before that I would like to add I like  rewored maxwell, its more fun.

When shadow workers pick up an item they should automatically put the items inside them and those items should be teleported to magician's chest if we are not in the area of their working space.

Workers working space should be more bigger

Since its harder for maxwell to go insane there should be an option to lose sanity to give duration to Codex (like 50 sanity for %10 durability)

Maxwell could work really well as a buffing charater like 2 nightmare fuel for +10 damage for 8 minutes or 2 nightmare fuel for %50 faster gathering, +25 health for 16 minutes for 2 nightmare fuels...

Maxwell should use nightmare sword and armor x1.2 better (for damage and durability)

The first dualist should mimic your movement and attacks (but you will lose sanity over time) and others should stay the same

[Creatorofswamps]

8 hours ago, Strampunch said:

Our of curiosity, would anyone be able to post a clip to show the summoning animation? I'm afraid I won't be able to play the beta any time soon but I'm terribly curious to see any new animations and designs.

 

 

[FourthLess]

6 hours ago, X-lem said:

Imo it never fit him as a character. He was once king of the world and is now relegated to chopping trees and rocks?

 I think it fits perfectly. He doesn't have to be a gatherer but he's just like any other survivor but possess a magic tool that has some insane capabilities and he simply doesn't know how to use it properly. The fact that he's not some super powered person simply because he used to sit in the throne works perfectly well for me! 

Edited November 4, 2022 by FourthLess

[CM2112]

It'd be nice if shadow servants can repair minor boat leaks, just so they have a special task on deck as well. And maybe, storing fresh petals in the shadow dimension turns them into evil flowers over time to show its convenient but dark nature (that or letting the Shadow Sneak do the same for flowers). Other than that, I love the shadow dimension concept. It shows how Maxwell still remembers tricks from his stage days like vanishing/producing objects, and transposition.  

[Cheggf]

56 minutes ago, FourthLess said:

 I think it fits perfectly. He doesn't have to be a gatherer but he's just like any other survivor but possess a magic tool that has some insane capabilities but he simply doesn't know how to use it properly. The fact that he's not some super powered person simply because he used to sit in the throne works perfectly well for me! 

Yeah people like to talk about how he sat on the throne, but anyone can. Wilson canonically does and you can plant whoever you want there in DSA.

[BB Marioni]

I love the refresh so far, specially since the duration of workers have been extended. I will agree with most players though that the main issue which was his duelists has still not been addressed. Another thing is losing the ability to stay insane permanently seems a big nerf, specially since he still does not have any reliable way to farm nightmare fuel, for a character that seems to heavily rely on using it.

Some suggestions I can think of: 

 

Shadow Sneak - make it have an additional effect of either:

1. When used against shadow creatures, it would instantly kill them and drop nightmare fuel, or

2. When used against a creature, it gives them a debuff which gives them 30% chance to drop nightmare fuel when killed

Also, faster cast time on deploying them

 

Shadow Duelists - A couple of suggestions I think would make them viable:

1. Increase their hp to 200, or

2. Let them wear armor, or

3. Have all puppets have 15 HP but take 1 damage per hit from all damage sources, and reduce the hp regen to 2hp, or

4. Make them have dmg reduction based on what armor Maxwell is wearing. If the puppet is damaged, Maxwells armor would reduce it's durability by 25% of the norml reduction (since there will be 6 puppets tanking), or

5. Remove the duelists all together and replace them with some sort of Shadow Cthulu that acts kinda like abigail/bernie (would be nice if it can fight shadow creatures too)

 

Shadow workers - Maybe have the option to relocate them while they are not expired yet. Also they should not pick up lanterns from the ground XD

 

Cant think of anyway to have Maxwell have reduced sanity permanently as before

Edited November 4, 2022 by BB Marioni
last minute idea

[Daniel14676]

A way they could change the chester things to stop stealing is give maxwell a craftable item that can upgrade shadow chester to connect him with the hat storage. Just a thought.

[GodIess]

I think it would be a good idea to restore % of the book if shadows don't die in their lifetime, but that still doesn't work for spells. This way we can have permanent shadows like before, but more manageable, because we can choose the area to work on and then return it back to the book.

I would also like to see a return option that hides all the shadows in the book, restoring the spent%.

[RatherRabbit]

Just put a finger on what bothers me with comparing the tophat and the servants. The tophat can allow us to teleport large amounts of supplies back to base, but the servants are stuck in one place. Meaning you'll have to respawn and respawn and respawn them every couple of feet if you want to do the Classic Maxwell thing of sweeping through a rocky biome like a mineral-deficient locust.

The tophat makes that particular trick more viable, but not being able to move your already summoned clones makes it less. So which one do you want?

For what it's worth I prefer being able to locust my way across the map.

[GodIess]

1 minute ago, RatherRabbit said:

Just put a finger on what bothers me with comparing the tophat and the servants. The tophat can allow us to teleport large amounts of supplies back to base, but the servants are stuck in one place. Meaning you'll have to respawn and respawn and respawn them every couple of feet if you want to do the Classic Maxwell thing of sweeping through a rocky biome like a mineral-deficient locust.

The tophat makes that particular trick more viable, but not being able to move your already summoned clones makes it less. So which one do you want?

For what it's worth I prefer being able to locust my way across the map.

they are temporary, so you just call for new ones

[Daniel14676]

Shrug, the workers are so much cheaper now, you can still do it, just with more control with the new version. (edit: oh, someone else already said that, lol. opps)

Edited November 4, 2022 by Daniel14676

[GodIess]

2 minutes ago, Daniel14676 said:

Shrug, the workers are so much cheaper now, you can still do it, just with more control with the new version.

before you spent 1 fuel and could use them indefinitely, but now you need to call in different areas, thereby spending 1-2 fuel every day if you collect something, chop, dig.

[IronHelmet]

Pros:

Duelists are somewhat better now because they become disposable, meaning you don't have to waste 8 nightmare fuel and 4 spears just to watch them instantly die 

The hat is cool, can be used for long distance sharing of equipment with other players, very nice for exploration 

Shadow trap is cool, useful for boss fights

Cons:

Worker servants, which are a big part of Maxwell's character design, are terrible now because:

-Extremely small radius, their work area is way too small and is really inefficient than just you doing it yourself

-Disposable, the max sanity nerf of normal servants wasn't an issue before because they were permanent. However now they've become a problem because they will just do very small workloads and then die, taking your sanity for nothing. It's literally more effective to just do it yourself

Still too underwhelming, he is still way too useless in the fact that everything he can provide for has a much better alternative, especially now that his workers became even weaker, kicking him off of the "resource gathering king" throne which kept him alive all this time (deep lore)

Overall, I understand that reworks aren't necessarily to make the character stronger, they are to make the character more fun to play as, and I will have to say, I like- actually no I LOVE this rework, and I think this rework definitely had the correct idea, making Maxwell a frail remote resource manager and overseer that can make puppets work for him, but it just isn't executed very well. 

Fixes that I think can be made:

-Greatly increase worker radius, increase nightmare fuel costs and increase lifespan, decreasing the need to micromanage them.

-The above, or workers refund sanity upon death, because it's extremely unfair for Maxwell to summon 6 servants who take up his whole sanity, cut down like 10 trees or so, and then spontaneously perish and take his entire sanity bar with them. 

-Improve their AI and improve efficiency, maybe give each servant a 1 space inventory where they can pick up a stack of one item instead of picking one by one and given them to you

Now here's some reworks that I think can be added and would make his rework much more fun. I haven't really thought about the balancing so these might be too OP, but I think it could be fun concepts to consider, I've been waiting for Maxwell's rework for so so long and I love this character so much it hurts me to see his reworks be so... Underwhelming:(I know these are definitely rly hard to code in but it's just food for thought)

Maxwell can spend his entire sanity bar and right-click a shadow servant on the map to teleport there and take their place, unsummoning the servant, this can only be activated when he has more than 30 sanity

Shadow armor:A spell that lasts 1 minute, 2 minutes cool down. Maxwell temporarily gains effects from the bone armor set dropped by ancient fuelweaver, can completely block 2 hits, and become completely insane, while also being passive to shadow creatures. Uses 25% of codex umbra

Shadow farmer:A new type of shadow servant that will auto water every crop tile in a large radius, can only be summoned when near a pond or active oasis

Shadow servants pick up the resources they harvest and transfer it all into the magicians box

Shadow sneak could use a rework, and become an actual sneak spell, for example it takes 1 second to cast, lasts 10 seconds and make it harder for Maxwell to gain aggro, easier to lose aggro and gain a temporary speed boost

Edited November 4, 2022 by IronHelmet

[NotSoLonelyDupe]

I'd rather have the old servants that can be toggled to work or not ( just like you can toggle abigail from aggro to calm ). Instead of having them able to collect stuff, why not make a collector servant to pick up stuff.