An analysis of boss health scaling (and a possible solution to the debate)

[Guille6785]

Over the past few months there's been quite a few threads discussing the possibility of adding health scaling to raid bosses based on the amount of players; I've replied a few times explaining why I think this specific type of scaling would actually hurt the game for many reasons, including but not limited to:

Spoiler

1. It's unintuitive, firstly because enemy health is not visible to the player without mods, so it'd be impossible for a player to know how much damage they're effectively doing after the scaling is applied (and that's if they've even realized that there is scaling to begin with)

2. It's also unintuitive because logically, having twice the amount of players in a fight should require half the amount of resources, but because of scaling these simple calculations would become incredibly risky, players would be led to overprepare instead (or just use less players for a fight)

3. It's immersion breaking; it makes no sense in-universe for creatures to magically get stronger based on the amount of people beating them up with a stick

4. I've brought up a few calculations in previous posts; when you factor in characters like wigfrid, wendy, wolf, etc. scaling becomes a giant mess because suddenly there are (fairly common) cases where having those characters in your team results in the awkward situation where you'd actually be dealing higher dps if you had less players, something that is incredibly unintuitive and poorly designed

^This is NOT solved by adjusting the numbers; I provided some examples and there's only 2 outcomes: If the scaling is too big, then players would be better off doing fights with less players (and bringing in more people to a fight should never make fights last longer; this is a core principle of bosses in dst as a multiplayer game), and if you make the scaling too small then it might as well not be there; the reason a "sweet spot" does not exist is because of the big differences in damage multipliers between characters like wes all the way to wolfgang and wanda; there will always be cases where scaling achieves the opposite effect that it's supposed to purely because of the diversity in character selection that DST has that other games with health scaling don't (like terraria, souls games, etc)

5. Depending on how health scaling is implemented, it could result in cases where:

-If scaling depends on the amount of players in a server, it would make it nigh impossible to kill bosses in public servers where most players completely ignore raid bosses and only 1-2 people fight dragonfly/bee queen; imagine joining a pub to solo dfly as wigfrid and suddenly it has 60000 health just because 12 newbies are running around killing spiders

-If scaling depends on player proximity, any player simply trying to help in minor ways, spectate the fight, or simply someone who passes by would suddenly make the fight a lot harder to the players actually doing the fighting

-If scaling depends on whether different players have damaged the boss, it would lead to a weird dynamic in certain fights where you have to tell some players NOT to hit the boss at any point no matter what and just focus on a different thing (like chopping spore caps, killing woven shadows etc.) which circles back to "unintuitive and immersion breaking" for obvious reasons

There are good arguments in favor of scaling though; some bosses just take way too ****ing long as a solo x1 damage character if you don't use cheese (bee queen being an obvious example of this), and because a lot of bosses are really not particularly well designed for a single character it effectively punishes players trying to give a fair fight to a boss, and instead pushes them to either pick a combat character or just cheese them.

Therefore, it's clear that some way for normal damage characters to approach the effective damage output (or time to kill a boss) of multiple players/a combat character would help in making the game more fun by letting players not resort to cheese without overly punishing them for it, thereby encouraging more playstyle variety since combat characters won't seem so much better at that specific task. There are a few things to consider though:

Spoiler

-It should not be forced down everyone's throats; obviously automatic health scaling would fundamentally change the game overnight and drastic changes like that are an easy way to piss off your playerbase so obviously that's not the way to go

-It should appear in a way that fits the game, feels organic, doesn't ruin the immersion, is intuitive, and makes perfect sense in the context of a survival game where you craft things to overcome obstacles and ensure your survival

Therefore, the solution is indirect health scaling, an alternate way for a lower damage output to not be at such a massive disadvantage compared to the higher ones, which requires:

-If it's an item or similar it must not feel mandatory; players shouldn't feel that they are missing out on an obvious win button, therefore it should be an item that competes with other useful items and also is not available in limitless quantities right away; like any new mechanic there should be strategy underneath it

-On the other hand it should also be accessible; if you have to grind for it or wait a long time to access it then it might as well not exist because you can already prepare 2 stacks of pierogi and 8 marble suits to hold f on any boss you want; this option should be cheap but not spammable, therefore it should require something that you only have a limited supply of at the beginning of the game

-It should bridge the gap between a x1 damage multiplier and a x2 one, not move it to a different place: what I mean by this is that this hypothetical item should make a noticeable difference for a wilson for example but not be that attractive to a wolfgang, so a new weapon that deals 102 damage for example would be a bad approach because the high damage characters could just wield that weapon and the difference would remain just as big

This seems like an impossibly long list of requirements that will never be met by any solution, but fear not, for I came up with an item concept that could help address all those points while also spicing up combat (since a lot of people want more variety):

Spoiler

The solution I propose is to add craftable varnishes that can be used to coat your equipped weapon to increase its damage output for a short duration, not by a percentage, but by a flat amount, something like this:

(picture from a friend)

To use a varnish simply right click it in your inventory and then it'll be applied to any weapon equipped in your hand slot for maybe 60-90 seconds, indicated by the weapon getting the forge cooldown overlay (like wanda's clocks):

The "flat" increase (i.e. ignores damage buffs and warly spices) part matters a lot because this would let varnishes make a significant difference for a lower damage character without enabling wolfgang/wanda/warly to do absurd amounts of potential damage, for example:

-If a varnish increased the damage of a weapon by a flat +17 damage, then a wilson wielding a hambat would be dealing around 76 damage (if fresh), a very generous increase that is well worth the investment as it would let him 2-shot 150 HP enemies like hounds when fighting a varg, etc.

-If a wolfgang with a hambat used the same varnish, their damage would only go from 119 to 136, a far less noticeable increase, at which point it'd be a much less impactful option (and you might as well not bother spending the materials on it)

 

As for cost and effects that's up for discussion, I think glommer goop being part of the recipe would be an interesting option as it's limited early game and has other uses that one might prefer instead (healing, fertilizer, tree jam and hostile flares), thereby avoiding varnishes from becoming too much of a must-use; however since glommer goop might just be a little too rare then beeswax could also be a valid option since it's accessible early game but takes significant effort to renew (since you have to deconstruct bee queen crowns or wax paper from klaus, so it kinda pays for itself in a way).

An example of a recipe I think could be x1 red gem, x1 glommer goop and x2 papyrus for 4 units of a "fire varnish" (just to illustrate, I'd like to hear suggestions for different varnish types and their cost)

thanks for coming to my ted talk also hi jesse pls read my suggestion

[Cloakingsumo198]

Monster hunter sharpness.

Just change the multiplier to additives and rename a couple things.

Also mandatory comparison apparently

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

The solution I propose is to add craftable varnishes that can be used to coat your equipped weapon to increase its damage output for a short duration

Spoiler

 

Other than that weapon buffs sound heavenly even if it's only to break certain certain damage thresholds like the hound 2 shot

[Mike23Ua]

So uhh there’s now an option you can toggle to take 33% less damage from all sources, “Technically” this is already Boss Scaling.

[Yuuko]

Post scaling damage increases isn't a bad idea, but I don't feel health totals are the problem.  Yes Wolfgang or Wanda can make much quicker work of some bosses, but I don't feel a 1x multiplier is really such a disadvantage.  Bee Queen isn't hard because she has 22k health.  Klaus has 15000, less health yes but is it how much lower his health is that makes him such a fun, engaging and approachable fight?  no.  Its because his fight is fun, engaging, and approachable!

There isn't much need to go out of your way to cheese Klaus because his fight is very fair.  A few healing items and armor in case you make a mistake, maybe some way to handle temp like some dwarf stars and you're good to go.  Yet his fight is quite involved, has multiple moves for you to react to, which all require a different response.  Meanwhile b.queen like "me and these 6 grumbles just move to and stunlock you the end."  You can prepare a few flutes to shortcut the bqueen fight, but at that point its hardly a fight anymore - fluting her is as much cheese as setting up an oven to cook her.  The fact is there isn't really any structure, or game plan to her fight.  Its all stat checks and hit stun.

I think the real answer is to just re-work these fights.  It worked for Ancient Guardian.  AG is another frequently cheesed boss of yor - turns out you give his fight a bit of structure, some actual game plan, that people will just go and fight them!  No need to goggle how to cheese a fight that is actually fun, engaging, and approachable...

And this doesn't mean just make all fights easy - AFW is also fun, engaging, and approachable and if you gave him 4x health I don't think that would change!

[HowlVoid]

11 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Post scaling damage increases isn't a bad idea, but I don't feel health totals are the problem.  Yes Wolfgang or Wanda can make much quicker work of some bosses, but I don't feel a 1x multiplier is really such a disadvantage.  Bee Queen isn't hard because she has 22k health.  Klaus has 15000, less health yes but is it how much lower his health is that makes him such a fun, engaging and approachable fight?  no.  Its because his fight is fun, engaging, and approachable!

There isn't much need to go out of your way to cheese Klaus because his fight is very fair.  A few healing items and armor in case you make a mistake, maybe some way to handle temp like some dwarf stars and you're good to go.  Yet his fight is quite involved, has multiple moves for you to react to, which all require a different response.  Meanwhile b.queen like "me and these 6 grumbles just move to and stunlock you the end."  You can prepare a few flutes to shortcut the bqueen fight, but at that point its hardly a fight anymore - fluting her is as much cheese as setting up an oven to cook her.  The fact is there isn't really any structure, or game plan to her fight.  Its all stat checks and hit stun.

Isn't this the whole point of the post?

There are bosses that just feel like health sponges, that's what's trying to be addressed. It's why the items aren't meant to always be worth it. You wouldn't uses the varnishes on Klaus, you'd use them on bee queen. As apposed to cheesing, or trying to circumvent the battle in another way, you'd have a more approachable battle. 

Seems you made several point in favor without realizing it... These varnishes can make a fight more involved without changing the core of the sponge bosses. Using life steal, aoe, overwriting varnishes with others, and planning for when they run out. You have more ways in how you engage her, allowing fights to be varied from the characters stand point as apposed to the bosses stand point. 

Think about the Klaus fight, despite it being a fun battle do you ever change up how you approaches it? Well with varnishes you could. With flat increases the battle length wouldn't change much but how the battle develops would.

11 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I think the real answer is to just re-work these fights. 

I agree, but that's also more work as there are several fights that feel like sponges. Varnishes would be a one time deal that would affect all boss battles as a whole but is also very, very optional. There are those who like drawn out fight to see the abilities of their characters take the spotlight. There have been comments of people who enjoy toadstool just as it is because they play with friends and all the characters abilities come into play for longer periods of time. This isn't meant to change that, but put the battle in the players hands and measure their options.

11 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

It worked for Ancient Guardian.  AG is another frequently cheesed boss of yor - turns out you give his fight a bit of structure, some actual game plan, that people will just go and fight them!  No need to goggle how to cheese a fight that is actually fun, engaging, and approachable...

And this doesn't mean just make all fights easy - AFW is also fun, engaging, and approachable and if you gave him 4x health I don't think that would change!

4x health would turn the fight into stats checks as you previously described bee queen. It's an engaging fight for some because approaching the battle correctly also makes it a short fight, much shorter than bee queen.  So given kleis pattern with bosses they want to last long periods of time and require multiple player we have these choices.

Bloated health

Health regen

Multiple boss stages

I don't want every boss to have these, it will feel repetitive. Low HP bosses, with varied attack patterns, and lower level loot, already serve a purpose of adding different interest boss battles to the boss pool. 

[Mr Giggio]

I do like the idea of ~elemental damage ~ scaling flat lines of damage, some games use it and its really interesting how they make classes valid which aint   as strong as the DPS ones, so it kinda balances it all. Also, literally magic could be a fun way to do it so, like Tulecite Clubs. I mean, fighting with wands and staves aint that usefull right now cuz fire staff isnt good for damage, and ice staff is good enough as it its for now, which is freezin. Magic damage take alway from meelee dps the possibility once they will prefer to keep bonking but the ones who aint will have a good alternative way to reach up. 

[EighteenXVIII]

My viewpoint on this issue is that it is too hard to solo many raid bosses. One solution that wouldn't break the game in any way would be to not have scaling, but rather separate raid boss health values between a) a solo server and b) a server with two or more players. You don't per se need to have a gradual scaling system to fix the issue for solo players.

That said, many raid bosses are actually quite easy in multiplayer, especially relative to how brutal they are to a solo player. Fuelweaver, Crab King and Bee Queen come to mind. Now personally I think DST is a casual game that should be accessible to people who aren't gaming pros. It's precisely why I want to improve the solo experience, since frankly most gamers cannot defeat a boss like those three raid bosses without some kind of cheese. You could argue that in multiplayer some raid bosses like Dragonfly could be harder. Removing the stun effect, and perhaps more frequent rage activations could be an option.

The only issue is then that some players will complain that solo raid bosses are now too easy. Perhaps a world setting that has two options - "single player boss health" and "multiplayer boss health" - could provide a solution. You could tie to this world setting harder or easier boss AIs as well, like more frequent rage activations on Dragonfly, or less hectic Crab King mechanics. With this system, raid bosses could become manageable and engaging for solo players, while maintaining and enhancing the experience in multiplayer. To me this sounds like the most elegant compromise, but I'm open to critiques.

[Yuuko]

41 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Seems you made several point in favor without realizing it...

You really think AFW with 4x health would suddenly be on par with BQueen?

Maybe I made my points, but you didn't get them.

Health is actually NOT the primary leverage for difficulty, in fact its hardly a lever at all.  BQueen with 10k health would still require you deal with an instantly respawning herd of stun-locking drones that all simply fly towards and attack you non-stop.  Even with 10k health you'd still resort to cheese via pan flute, walls, ovens, or w/e because the fight its self offers no engaging or approachable mechanics.  Meanwhile AFW with 4x health would still be easily do-able you'd just have to go through a few more cycles of his fight.

Damage is not the direction to take, and as much as 

41 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

that's also more work as there are several fights that feel like sponges

it would be work to add varnishes as well, and the cascading effect of adding MORE damage options is still present.  Wolfgang would still use varnishes to get that last ounce of damage for their speed run, and nothing stops 4-8x ppl from running varnishes if they wanted to.

The problem isn't health pools, its unengaging and unapproachable fights.  Just like AG, we don't need some arbitrary nerf to combat to hate on ppl who cheese a fight, what we need to do is recognize the reason that people cheese them so much is because they are just bad fights and NEED a rework.  Even with a dps increase they need a rework.  Even playing Wolfgang in the rain with volt jelly they need a rework.

[HowlVoid]

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You really think AFW with 4x health would suddenly be on par with BQueen?

Lmao, yes. Given if I make a single mistake (of which I make several) the fw goes on indefinitely. Bee queen I can kill once every 20 days if I so wish.

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Maybe I made my points, but you didn't get them.

No I got them. I don't think you understand your own points to be frank. As I stated before some enjoy the battles in a multiplayer setting.

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Health is actually NOT the primary leverage for difficulty, in fact its hardly a lever at all.  BQueen with 10k health would still require you deal with an instantly respawning herd of stun-locking drones that all simply fly towards and attack you non-stop. 

You can kite bee queen.

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Even with 10k health you'd still resort to cheese via pan flute, walls, ovens, or w/e because the fight its self offers no engaging or approachable mechanics. 

I do her without cheesing. The problem is she takes too long. Give Klaus the same HP and lower the number of attacks you can deal so it's on par with bee queen and you'll realize that no matter how "interesting" the fight it, if it drags on it gets repetitive. 

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Meanwhile AFW with 4x health would still be easily do-able you'd just have to go through a few more cycles of his fight.

More cycles, more mistakes, a more misarable fight.

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Damage is not the direction to take, and as much as 

Damage equates to a boss having less HP. 

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

it would be work to add varnishes as well,

One project that is applicable over several bosses or several projects across several bosses. You do the math.

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

and the cascading effect of adding MORE damage options is still present.  Wolfgang would still use varnishes to get that last ounce of damage for their speed run, and nothing stops 4-8x ppl from running varnishes if they wanted to.

Just like nothing stops people from spamming early dishes or Winona catapults.

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The problem isn't health pools, its unengaging and unapproachable fights. 

 

Varnishes can make the battles more engaging

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Just like AG, we don't need some arbitrary nerf to combat to hate on ppl who cheese a fight,

This isn't relevant to the conversation, it terms of "hating" what someone does or doesn't do 

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

what we need to do is recognize the reason that people cheese them so much is because they are just bad fights and NEED a rework.  Even with a dps increase they need a rework.  Even playing Wolfgang in the rain with volt jelly they need a rework.

I agree, but varnishes are also a valid second option.

[Guille6785]

27 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You really think AFW with 4x health would suddenly be on par with BQueen?

Maybe I made my points, but you didn't get them.

Health is actually NOT the primary leverage for difficulty, in fact its hardly a lever at all.  BQueen with 10k health would still require you deal with an instantly respawning herd of stun-locking drones that all simply fly towards and attack you non-stop.  Even with 10k health you'd still resort to cheese via pan flute, walls, ovens, or w/e because the fight its self offers no engaging or approachable mechanics.  Meanwhile AFW with 4x health would still be easily do-able you'd just have to go through a few more cycles of his fight.

Damage is not the direction to take, and as much as 

it would be work to add varnishes as well, and the cascading effect of adding MORE damage options is still present.  Wolfgang would still use varnishes to get that last ounce of damage for their speed run, and nothing stops 4-8x ppl from running varnishes if they wanted to.

The problem isn't health pools, its unengaging and unapproachable fights.  Just like AG, we don't need some arbitrary nerf to combat to hate on ppl who cheese a fight, what we need to do is recognize the reason that people cheese them so much is because they are just bad fights and NEED a rework.  Even with a dps increase they need a rework.  Even playing Wolfgang in the rain with volt jelly they need a rework.

the point of my post is not to address the difficulty nor the fun of the fights, it's to address the fact that with certain characters and weapons some fights just take way too long no matter what and no amount of QOL updates to bosses can change that, the purpose of my suggestion is to put more power in the hands of the players to reduce the length of certain fights without needing to pick specific characters and without forcing those changes on every single player

[maxwell_winters]

I don't think the health is the main issue. Raid bosses, mainly New Reign ones and Crab King, are designed around fighting in a group of 2 at least. Beating them solo feels like controlling a jet plane, with no room for mistakes. 

I do like the idea of varnishes, though. I think beeswax is a better option for them. I don't' want Glommer goop to have way too many uses. 

[Bird Up]

Ideally HP scaling shouldn't be added. However if anything resembling HP scaling is added, it should not be a staple to any standard server, but a custom change that can be toggled, potentially in the new "relaxed" mode on the beta. I think it's best to just leave boss HP as it is, and leave HP scaling up to modders. Unfortunately console does not have mods, but that's always been true - that is just the console experience.

[Guille6785]

again, the point of my post is not about whether the bosses are good or bad, or whether they are properly designed for 1 player (that's a different topic), it's just addressing the (unavoidable) situation that for a lot of solo characters certain fights feel more drawn out than they need to be and varnishes would be a very elegant option to circumvent that issue that I believe fits the game nicely

[Spino43]

64k AF sounds like an absolute slug to go through. 

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

the point of my post is not to address the difficulty nor the fun of the fights, it's to address the fact that with certain characters and weapons some fights just take way too long no matter what and no amount of QOL updates to bosses can change that, the purpose of my suggestion is to put more power in the hands of the players to reduce the length of certain fights without needing to pick specific characters and without forcing those changes on every single player

I think what makes BQueen take too long is not her health pool, but the way the fight is constructed.  You spend so much time leading bees away that to fight her without cheese feels a drag.  If they streamlined the bees and how they worked her health wouldn't be nearly as bad.  I don't agree that a simple damage mod is going to help

I also think if people want a damage mod they can just play one of several characters with them...

[loopuleasa]

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

adding health scaling to raid bosses based on the amount of players

I would like that.

But it all depends on the numbers and tuning.

95% of scalings will make the game not be fun.

Only 5% of solutions would be viable.

And having the balancing be on a per-boss level would be important.

Each boss having not a flat health, but a base HP and its own scaling equation.

[Cheggf]

8 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

There are good arguments in favor of scaling though; some bosses just take way too ****ing long as a solo x1 damage character if you don't use cheese (bee queen being an obvious example of this), and because a lot of bosses are really not particularly well designed for a single character it effectively punishes players trying to give a fair fight to a boss, and instead pushes them to either pick a combat character or just cheese them.

Therefore, it's clear that some way for normal damage characters to approach the effective damage output (or time to kill a boss) of multiple players/a combat character would help in making the game more fun by letting players not resort to cheese without overly punishing them for it,

There is. The Celestial Portal. Pretty cheap, too.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

the game already has ho scaling, is called volt goat jelly

imagine how absurd would be to reduce the hp of bosses just to see someone using wolf+jelly+catapults

[Zeklo]

Maybe it's because I've been 'out of the game' for a bit, but I've really started to notice how often boss battles get sped up or cut down in videos.
It's a bit appalling as a boss fight should be one of the MOST interesting aspects to show off, but the huge disconnect between damage and health makes them a slog.

This is a unique approach to the issue, but the numbers remain so staggering it will likely not make enough of a difference.

While bosses dying slowly or dying quickly is a problem, the main issue is difficulty.

I'm sure some won't favor the comparison given the amount of differences, but look at Hollow Knight's Nightmare King Grimm. They remain one of the most difficult bosses in the game, and the whole fight takes about 2 minutes.

DST's combat is very mechanically limited of course, but there are still interesting ways to diversify danger in fights. Typically through AoE—lasers, ground pounds, sand spikes. Things that require a different form of dodging than usual kiting, as well as bosses that don't just stand around and let themselves get hit.

I'm still waiting and hoping to see Klei utilize more Forge mechanics, because those were a step in the right direction.

tl;dr - Boss HP scaling would be good, but would also just expose a different weak spot in the game's design. So unless both HP & difficulty are tackled together it's just a makeshift solution. Unfortunately this kind of change would require the complete rework of bosses, so it's not exactly feasible but it can be applied for adversaries going forward.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I'm sure some won't favor the comparison given the amount of differences, but look at Hollow Knight's Nightmare King Grimm. They remain one of the most difficult bosses in the game, and the whole fight takes about 2 minutes.

but in hollow knight night/next season/rain/hounds/hunger/etc wont come to make the fight more difficult if you werent prepare. Ofc fight shouldnt take 40min but neither 2 min like in hamlet or sw

And ofc some fight become so repetitive because the lack of variety of atacks like toad. We need more klaus/CC kind of fights

7 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

bosses that don't just stand around and let themselves get hit

Agree. CC breaks the inmersion by standing still as long as you want... (the first i fought him i even went to base to gather more armor...)

[Cheggf]

A fight in games like Civ and presumably Eve can take several real life days, weeks, or months. These fights taking 10 or 20 minutes is nothin'.

[mr. brj]

I like the idea of a flat damage raise a lot, and would like to add another (semi off-topic) suggestion to the list. Instead of a direct HP scaling as many suggest, a difficulty scaling would also be much better. The Klaus fight is a perfect example that already uses such a scaling: more players deal more damage, but they also have to deal with more dangers like an increased number of freeze/fire attacks and more summoned Krampi. Some bosses, especially Bee Queen and Fuelweaver, could also benefit from this, where a solo player would have to, for example, deal with less Grumble Bees than a group of 3-4 players would. Fuelweaver could summon Woven Shadows based on the number of players around the Atrium Gate. Just decrease the default number of minions for a solo player, and find a scaling per player for extra summons such that the fights neither become too tedious nor too easy for up to a group of 6 players.

[Guille6785]

9 hours ago, Cheggf said:

There is. The Celestial Portal. Pretty cheap, too.

did you even read the post

[PetulantPansy]

The game is called Don't Starve *TOGETHER*.

I don't understand why the devs should spend time making the game a better single player experience. That would more or less defeats the purpose for DST to even exist in the first place. There are so many other interesting things that they could work on. 

This is also a slippery slope. Playing alone means you accumulate resources at a slower pace too. How unfair! Should we give all players who choose to play DST solo wolfgang/maxwell/woodie resource gathering capabilities too? Or just give them a permanent construction amulet...

Don't forget to varnish my pickaxe/axe too lmao

[W0l0l0]

Here is my idea:

Spoiler

Bosses can be "enraged", in a very similar way to Misery Toadstool.

Planting something near the spawner enrages it for a short while, which spawns an enraged version of the boss instead, and enragement can be stacked,

Enraging increases the difficulty of the bosses only by increasing health and damage values (probably add diminishing returns on the damage). All other aspects of the boss are identical.

The boss loot increases proportionally with the boss health, and all boss drops are attainable at the default level of the boss.

This is an example for Toadstool. (blueprints are still random for the possibilities)

For Bee Queen, her hive could be enraged by adding a torch to it, for example, and it would increase the difficulty in a similar way to the Toadstool example.

This way, bosses can be "customised" to their desired difficulty, but the mechanics of the boss are the same. The increased loot can also help with matching the increased demand for it.

Lemmie know whatcha think.